RAAM on a Silvio 2.0??

[Charles.Plager]

Hi,

As almost all of you know, Maria just did an outstanding job finishing RAAM.

I very much understand that the Vendetta is a lot more streamlined than the Silvio 1.5. But the Silvio 2.0 is much more aggressive in the way it presents. I wonder what Maria, Jim, John et al's thoughs are on the choice of using a Silvio "next time" (or for somebody else).

The disadvantage of the Silvio:

* A little(??) less aerodynamic (anybody got any numbers here??? Eric, hurry up and buy a Silvio so you can do roll down tests)

* A little heavier (don't know that I'd notice that much, but I'm very willing to believe that Maria would).

The advantages:
* Suspension

What I'm proposing (or, well, talking about at least) is trading a little bit of speed for a bunch of comfort. For a short term race, I understand the pedal-to-the-metal mentality and how it's usually the right one. But RAAM isn't just about being fast, it's about surviving. Depending on the rider, I can easily see the new Silvio being the right tool for the task.

Thoughts?
Charles

 

[ak-tux]

Charles, I noted from RAAM

Charles, I noted from RAAM photos that Maria climbs by sitting up slightly on the Vendetta. (See picture Below)

Again with all due respect, and considering the car accident, I think probably it would have been better with two sets of cruzbikes: a couple of Vendettas for the smoother roads, flat or rolling terrain and a Silvio-2.0 for the rougher roads and steeper gradients because of the suspension and more upright seat angle.

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Ak-tux,
I know you're not

Hi Ak-tux,

I know you're not allowed to switch between DF and 'bent during RAAM, but I don't know how similar the bikes have to be otherwise. If that's allowed, that's not a crazy idea.

For Maria and her climbing style, I like the idea of air-bladders ( e.g., something like blood pressure cuffs). She could pump it up to give her a more upright position for the long climbs and still not make her abs do all the work.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[Eric Winn]

For some reason the mental

For some reason the mental image that first popped in my head was me hanging between a Silvio 2 and Vendetta 2 rolling down a hill...

* A little(??) less aerodynamic (anybody got any numbers here??? Eric, hurry up and buy a Silvio so you can do roll down tests)

Somehow I don't think we would produce any meaningful data with that technique.

With that out of the way, I was also thinking the same thing Charles was - perhaps the Silvio 2 would be a better RAAM bike.


-Eric

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hey Eric,
If you run several

Hey Eric,

If you run several trials of say, riding your bike at different speeds, but then always coasting from some point, you can extract very useful both aerodynamic and rolling resistance info. There's this online calculator that lets you do exactly this. If only you had a Vendetta and something to measure tracks...

(The calculator says it takes tcx files which are Garmin - you can probably find a converter from GPX. Note that you'd want to correct the altitude of the track before handing it to the calculator.)

Note that this wouldn't be too hard to do without the online calculator. You just want to make sure you run enough trials at different speeds to get an idea of how stable the numbers are.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[MrSteve]

Climbing in a Reclined Seat

Sitting up in a reclined seat anchors your rear into the 'bucket' of the seat,
or, that spot where the back of the seat pan joins the front.

Sitting up concentrates the weight of your upper body into the 'bucket',
further planting you solidly into the seat.

Doing so helps you to maximise your leg power, as your power is not wasted by
moving your upper body in concert with your pedal strokes.

Sitting up also, of course, moves your center of gravity forward, which
changes the ratio of weight carried by both wheels.
Sitting up puts more weight over the front/drive wheel.

All the above aids hill-climbing efficiency for a radically reclined, front-wheel drive bicycle.

Sitting up also negatively affects aerodynamics.

Finally, while you're pedaling, sitting up in the saddle is not at all difficult,
assuming that the handlebars allow you to do so.

The Silvio would work really, really well... but the V is faster, because superior aerodynamics
rule.

Conversely, the Vendetta works really, really well... but the Silvio is more comfortable, because
-duh- suspension!

 

[Kenneth Jessett]

To answer one of the

To answer one of the questions, in the RAAM - or any ultra race - a racer is allowed to change any bike within the category entered, ie, any standard or any recumbent bike.

In climbing on a recumbent, I would have thought having the ability to press down against a back rest would be an advantage. I've thought that Maria riding her vendetta was at a disadvantage not being able to do that as shown by her need to push herself off the seat.

Racing RAAM - or any ultra distance race - is as much about attrition as it is about speed. Many racers drop out because their bodies just wear down, not because they are not intrinsically fast enough. Axiomatically, if the racer can get into a comfortable position which can be sustained over a long period of time, they will be able to continue for longer.

Two main injuries or conditions which afflict Ultra racers is Shermers Neck and Achilles tendons. Both of these should be eliminated riding recumbents.

 

[ak-tux]

switching between a Vendetta and a Silvio in RAAM


I know you're not allowed to switch between DF and 'bent during RAAM, but I don't know how similar the bikes have to be otherwise. If that's allowed, that's not a crazy idea.

Charles, I was referring to switching between a Vendetta and a Silvio which I believe is allowed within the unfaired recumbent category in much the same way as switching between a standard road bike DF and a TT/Triathloan DF bike which are both considered as DF bikes.

 

[Anonsequitur]

Time Trial + Road DF OK for RAAM

Christoph Strasser, credits part of his winning strategy to starting out the race on his Time Trial(TT) bike for the first 24-48 hours into AZ then switching to his more relaxed geometry road DF.

The TT bike is heavier, very aero, but stressful riding position, with a disc rear wheel, but it's faster, and Strasser's race strategy probably relied on a fast start.

I seem to recall a "Larry" in a previous RAAM rode a Carbent for hills, and alternated with a No-com low racer for the open flats.

 

[Charles.Plager]

So it seems pretty clear that

So it seems pretty clear that one would be allowed to use both a Vendetta and a Silvio during a single RAAM race. That does open up possibilities.

O.k. So at this point, I think we need Eric to

* Buy a Silvio,
* Measure CdA and Cr of both Vendetta and Silvio
* Give us weights of finished bikes

We can then compare energy expenditures of the two bikes and start planning the next Cruzbike RAAM (for different weight riders)...



Cheers,
Charles

 

[thebean]

Charles,
i have done a lot of

Charles,

i have done a lot of testing with seat recline on all of my recumbents. I have no metrics to share, but feel confident that when I am in a more upright position, that I climb a lot better. I know many riders claim they can train their muscles in a more reclined position, and perhaps this is true.

I think if they can make the seat really adjustable on the 2.0 Silvio, that it will make the best RAAM bike. The seat could be dusted for different conditions which would be so cool.