Riding a Cruzbike.

[Henri]

On the advantages of MBB FWD:
Not only the idler(s) drain power, also chain guides/tubes if present. Also the frame has to withstand the chain pull ofer the whole length. The Cruzbike might lose less energy to frame flex and still be lighter.
Not applicable here, but there's more freedom in the design of rear suspension - front is harder, though.
In tight corners / manouvering your pedal input actually produces an immediate reaction. Pushing from the rear wheel, when the front wheel is steering as a large angle, will just puah sideways against the front wheel. - But V20's are not the right models for that kind of riding.
If you don't install the very long chainstays, you can just use one standard chainlength. (Also if waxing, you only need a standard wax pot. And you have less chain to clean and relube.)
You can swing the front around and have normal bike length. - But that makes it wider in probably the vast majority of cases.
If you want to carry lots of luggage, the space under the seat on the right is not blocked by a chain. Banana bags don't rub the chain and can be tucked in. Scarab bags are possible. Also tailboxes could be designed without a cutout for a chain and give a larger, more uniform inside.
The "rear derailleur" extends diagonally instead of straight down. This gives more ground clearance and redudes chance of curb strikes or plucking grass and flowers. (On 20" wheels long MTB style cages, even only somewhat long gravel style cages aren't even possible with a horizontal chain line but it should work on an MBB, if you want the large range like I do with my 1*12 10-52. 11-50 or 10-45 if you want a little bit tighter steps.)
Can be learned to steer very well with the feet. (Probably no slaloms with the V20's.)
Adjusting bottom bracket distance does not change the needed chain length.
Even lower chance of a thief just riding off on your bike.
Sturdy and stiffly mounted handle bar gives a good connection to the bottom bracket for pedaling -including muscle activation in the core- and a good connection to the whole bike for handling.

Keeping the brain fresh by learning something new. Gatting at least a bit of training for the upper body again.

 

[Boreen bimbler]

Even lower chance of a thief just riding off on your bike.

Ha ha, brilliant. And very true.

 

[Maverick1]

Wow, thanks guys for lots of in depth info on FWD recumbent bicycles.
Lots for me to take in and digest.
With riding a Cruzbike, since the drivetrain and steering are on the front wheel, I would imagine that powering with the right leg would mean counter pressure with your left arm on the handlebar.

 

[IyhelM]

Even lower chance of a thief just riding off on your bike.

The only reason I use a lock is to avoid random people injuring themselves trying to ride the Cruzbike

 

[Robert Holler]

S

Wow, thanks guys for lots of in depth info on FWD recumbent bicycles.
Lots for me to take in and digest.
With riding a Cruzbike, since the drivetrain and steering are on the front wheel, I would imagine that powering with the right leg would mean counter pressure with your left arm on the handlebar.

Some, but less than you think and it comes naturally with practice. Over time you can ride a Cruzbike no-hands as your legs are doing all the steering as well - this is something you cannot not do on other recumbents. As such, the "no hands" riding, while not a practical skill for actual riding, just proves that the "counter steer with arms" is not a 100% high effort task.

 

[LarryOz]

With riding a Cruzbike, since the drivetrain and steering are on the front wheel, I would imagine that powering with the right leg would mean counter pressure with your left arm on the handlebar.

Yes - that is how manypeople conter act the pedal steer when the first start riding- after you get about 100 miles in your legs, they will actually take over the entire thing for you if you let them. Many people can eventually ride no hands.

I am not sure when you live, but I have taught probably 100 people to ride a Cruzbike over the last 2 years at my Cruzbike Museum in Hilton Head, SC . Most people are riding by themselves in about an hour using my special process.
Out of all of those, I can only remember 1 person that could not do it - and it was because they were in their late 70's and had a significant balance issues.

People that have the most problems have also never ridden a recumbent bike at all. This of course means they not only have to figure out the balance of a recumbent but the RWD-MMB platform as well.
..
I have had such great resutls because I use a T50 with an electric rear wheel to learn on.
This is all I do to teach someone: (this is on my flat 1/2 mile road in front of my house)
1 - with electric assist , ride up and back with legs hanging down, but reclined in the seat - this gets them used to the recumbnet balance
2 - with electric assist, ride up and back with their feet on the pedals - but no pedaling - this gets them used to having their feet up now and the diffference in balance it brings to the parts
3 - still with electric assist, ride up and back starting to pedal slowly (put no pressure on the pedals and drivetrain) - this gets them used to acutally moving their legs but not feeling the "pedal steer" that comes with acutally pushing on the pedals hard enough to propel the bike.
4 - starting with the electric assist, ride up and back again, but now reduce the electric help slightly until they feel a little pressure on the pedals. - All of a sudden they are riding the bike and totally stop using the assist - most of them cannot beleive it was so quick!

Then I transition them to a Q45 - which is just a tiny bit more reclined. then to the S40 which is a tiny bit more and then to the V20 if that is their goal.

note: I also ride beside them during all the steps, stopping to adjust the boom or handlesbars as needed and to keep them on task.
If is funny - some people try and skip the steps - thinking they can just pedal right away after they have used the electric motor to get going. Some crash. Most cannot do it right away like that and even if they do, it it usually takes them more time feel comfortable and stable because they didn't do the basic things first.

- The above technique can also be used without the electric assist if you have someone to keep pushing you down the road until to progress thtough each step - it will take longer unless the helper is a marathon runner. Also - if you have a real gently sloping road you can coast down and you will also have the same effect - although you will have to walk the bike back to the top each time. If you do this method, just make sure you don't get going too fast - you really don't want to be going over about 10 mph for the training steps - beacuse at higher speeds it is easier to get into balance trouble and recover without incident.

Thanks my process - if you are close enough to take a quick trip to Hilton Head Island, SC I will be happy to personally help. I have all the models of the available bikes - and can even send one home with you if you decide it is for you!
Larry

 

[Henri]

if you have a real gently sloping road you can coast down and you will also have the same effect - although you will have to walk the bike back to the top each time.

That's how I did it and it worked great for me. Came from other recumbents. Atraight to the V20c. I started without reclining first.
I think there is a benefit to walking back up again. If gives your brain some time to process things and translate what you felt into a physical model to create the controlling subroutines ("muscle memory"). The same way you need a good night's sleep to really get something from your practice sessions, you also need plenty breaks.
When learning a new bike, I will also just sit there for a while, tilt it left and right, turn the handlebars with the leaning and without,… That way I already get a good bit of a feeling before I even have to roll the first bit. For an MBB that might be especially useful, because you can feel the effect of the additional mass from the crankset area.

 

[Henri]

I would imagine that powering with the right leg would mean counter pressure with your left arm on the handlebar.

I think there was a discussion of whether people prefere to counteract by pushing or pulling. I think the official teaching is that it's easier to push like you said. I tend to see myself more as a part of the front triangle, so I pull myself into the pedal by the handelbars anyway. Depending on handlebar position and stuff you can also incorporate a bit of a sideways force.

 

[Cadguy]

Regarding the OP's post that started this thread, You will definitely be much faster on the V20, as I came from other recumbents, and speak from my experience. I bought my V20 from Larry, and as he said, he starts you off easy with the electric, then progresses. I race mountain bikes and ride my recumbent, BUT this is very different, but I was able to get going pretty quick. I have broken all of my old PR's, a lot of them even before I got comfortable with the V20. Took a little while to settle in, and the biggest thing I had to do was to have a conscious effort to not "fight" the pedaling as much, You just actually have to relax a little, and it comes around.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Wow, thanks guys for lots of in depth info on FWD recumbent bicycles.
Lots for me to take in and digest.
With riding a Cruzbike, since the drivetrain and steering are on the front wheel, I would imagine that powering with the right leg would mean counter pressure with your left arm on the handlebar.

I have very limited experience with RWD recumbents so I almost never comment about them other than what I have learned from those who do know about them. One thing that comes up about pedal steer and the MBB format and how it differs from a fixed BB is the total amount of power available and the ability to use different muscle groups to generate power with MBBs. Jim Parker and others have way more knowledge about this than I do, and since I am not a doctor I am going to try to explain it the way a nonDoctor would

When your right foot is applying power it is going to try to push the boom to the left. You have 2 ways to keep it going straight. One is to push on the left side of the bars and the other is to pull on the right side. To each their own and it is perfectly fine that many CBers feel more comfortable with pushing the opposite side bar, but I feel more comfortable with pulling on the same side because it feels to me that I can get more power with each pedal stroke. I am not even going to try and prove this theory, or quote some study that does because I would just make a mess of it. I have a power meter on my V20 that I could do a little half-cocked one during a ride (I actually did one just for my own info). But here is my simple test if you are curious.

Go to the gym and see how much you can deadlift (pulling on the bars) and how much you can squat (pushing). The difference between them is the muscles worked, and it seems to me that people can deadlift anywhere from 10-30% more weight than they can squat.

I don't know if or how much a rider can pull on the bars on a fixed BB because, again, I have limited FBB experience, but I do know that on an MBB we can both push and pull, which is excellent for when we wanna switch mid-ride.

 

[Mike Cassera]

I have very limited experience with RWD recumbents so I almost never comment about them other than what I have learned from those who do know about them. One thing that comes up about pedal steer and the MBB format and how it differs from a fixed BB is the total amount of power available and the ability to use different muscle groups to generate power with MBBs. Jim Parker and others have way more knowledge about this than I do, and since I am not a doctor I am going to try to explain it the way a nonDoctor would

When your right foot is applying power it is going to try to push the boom to the left. You have 2 ways to keep it going straight. One is to push on the left side of the bars and the other is to pull on the right side. To each their own and it is perfectly fine that many CBers feel more comfortable with pushing the opposite side bar, but I feel more comfortable with pulling on the same side because it feels to me that I can get more power with each pedal stroke. I am not even going to try and prove this theory, or quote some study that does because I would just make a mess of it. I have a power meter on my V20 that I could do a little half-cocked one during a ride (I actually did one just for my own info). But here is my simple test if you are curious.

Go to the gym and see how much you can deadlift (pulling on the bars) and how much you can squat (pushing). The difference between them is the muscles worked, and it seems to me that people can deadlift anywhere from 10-30% more weight than they can squat.

I don't know if or how much a rider can pull on the bars on a fixed BB because, again, I have limited FBB experience, but I do know that on an MBB we can both push and pull, which is excellent for when we wanna switch mid-ride.

Good analogy.

 

[Henri]

I think the comparison to deadlifts alone might work but spuats seem way too different.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I think the comparison to deadlifts alone might work but spuats seem way too different.

Maybe leg presses make better sense?

 

[chicorider]

For me, I don't think that pushing vs. pulling is an either/or thing. As I'm pedaling along normally, I'm pushing a little and pulling a little; pushing the right pedal leads me to pull a bit with my right hand while I also push a bit with the left hand. I don't think about it. It's just what my arms do to keep the bottom bracket steady and my body relaxed.

 

[Doccus]

Thanks for sharing that Chicorider. That’s what I find that I do. It didn’t take long for it to happen that I just pedal and compensate with my hands….pushing, pulling, both…..without conscious effort. The online discussions about the difficulty of riding a Cruzbike almost turned me away. I don’t consider myself particularly athletic or coordinated. I made a visit to Larry Oz
and he had me riding in a few hours. I am still no expert and continue to grow smoother in my handling but long rides through towns, on city streets, along narrow paths are fun rides not requiring any thought about whether I’m pushing or pulling on the handlebars.

 

[Mike Cassera]

Agreed, after a while it's a non issue. And you can add more power to the pedals via your arms when you want to.

 

[Boreen bimbler]

Yea, it soon becomes instinctive and natural. It took me longer to get comfortable being on my back than the pedaling/steering.

 

[MNBentRider]

Yea, it soon becomes instinctive and natural. It took me longer to get comfortable being on my back than the pedaling/steering.

I suspect this is correct. I rode a RWD recumbent for many years before trying the S40 last year. I spent an hour riding it in a parking lot before I moved to quiet streets and trails, and was on busier streets shortly after that. I suspect the challenge for some people is getting comfortable on a recumbent.

 

[Trichodoc]

When you switch to clip-in pedals your control of the bike will vastly improve.

I was just thinking this today. I’ve only been riding short distances in my neighborhood weather permitting the last couple of months. Still not steady. The problem is that when you push hard on the pedal you have to pull back on the handle bar. Being able to pull back seems like it would make it easier. Is that the way to think about it?

 

[Frito Bandito]

I was just thinking this today. I’ve only been riding short distances in my neighborhood weather permitting the last couple of months. Still not steady. The problem is that when you push hard on the pedal you have to pull back on the handle bar. Being able to pull back seems like it would make it easier. Is that the way to think about it?

It is easier for me to apply more power by pulling on the bars, but that is not the case for everyone. You'll just have to experiment and see what feels better. By now your hands are already compensating for the pedal steer in 1 way or the other, pushing or pulling, but it probably doesnt make much of a difference, especially in the beginning.