Riding with DF groups

[pedlpadl]

My apologies if this has been covered before. I couldn't find anything in search.

I'm wondering what others do when riding socially with a group of DF riders. Do you hang in the back and enjoy the draft? Do you mix in with the pace line, even though the guy behind you is missing out on drafting benefits? Do you sit on the front? I sort of feel like I don't fit in anymore...

 

[Lief]

GREAT question.
Answer, I think...it depends.

I've ridden with groups of DF's that can't stand having me around "because of the different performance characteristics messing up their paceline".
In that situation - I took that to mean - they didn't like the fact that I'd just ride away from them on the flats, rollers, and downhills. Which I did on the return leg - because hanging in the back was too easy for my workout (too much draft all the time).
But it really means, and should probably be interpreted as, any group has a rhythm and pacing and a tight-knit group can be thrown off by just about any other DF rider they aren't familiar with as well. Riding styles matter. Even an erratic/wobbly/punchy bent rider *can* make me want to go it alone.

and

I've ridden with a group of DF's that take full advantage of it.
They do this by sitting on my draft, hunched low, on the downhills and coming around on the uphills.
TimTurner (on a bachetta) and his close buddy on a DF (strong cat 3 racer) swap like this so effectively that as a unit the two of them can pretty much own any segment.
They have even found that IF the DF comes around later on a hill he is actually better served (longer segments) to push the bent rider up the last bit to the top of a roller so that he can draft him down the other side.
I've done it with him too - it's very effective.

and

I've ridden with casual groups quite comfortably where we just intermingle with little thought to the differences.

It probably helps to have the strongest upright rider (or the most aero-efficient one) behind the bent(s) in the paceline - so when you take your turn at the front they can manage the load.

 

[ratz]

I've always wondered if it would be really effective to take a smaller rider and pair them with the recumbent rider; have them ride as a "single unit" for pulls on the front, forming a flying wedge in the air. Together they provide a greater pull than either would provide the group on their own; probably superior to a single upright rider; and they can probably do it longer.

 

[Lief]

I've always wondered if it would be really effective to take a smaller rider and pair them with the recumbent rider;

Yep - I think that would be great.
Tim and I actually have done it as two bents off the front followed by that strong cat3 racer who knows how to "gatekeep" - allowing us to easily swap back and forth off the front and keeping the rest of the peleton behind him.
Turned in a serious descent KOM that way.

https://www.strava.com/activities/315078040/segments/7439836073

The Barlow Pass Descent section #1/2/3 were all in that Peleton that day - #7 Jeff Reed was the gatekeepeer that day but his GPS didn't catch the segment.
You can see how much faster #1/2/3 were than anything else.

If we were truly trying to crush it we might have been able to shave another min off that time.
You can see my power average was 175W.

It is VERY effective.

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

GREAT question.
Answer, I think...it depends.

I've ridden with groups of DF's that can't stand having me around "because of the different performance characteristics messing up their paceline".
In that situation - I took that to mean - they didn't like the fact that I'd just ride away from them on the flats, rollers, and downhills. Which I did on the return leg - because hanging in the back was too easy for my workout (too much draft all the time).
But it really means, and should probably be interpreted as, any group has a rhythm and pacing and a tight-knit group can be thrown off by just about any other DF rider they aren't familiar with as well. Riding styles matter. Even an erratic/wobbly/punchy bent rider *can* make me want to go it alone.

and

I've ridden with a group of DF's that take full advantage of it.
They do this by sitting on my draft, hunched low, on the downhills and coming around on the uphills.
TimTurner (on a bachetta) and his close buddy on a DF (strong cat 3 racer) swap like this so effectively that as a unit the two of them can pretty much own any segment.
They have even found that IF the DF comes around later on a hill he is actually better served (longer segments) to push the bent rider up the last bit to the top of a roller so that he can draft him down the other side.
I've done it with him too - it's very effective.

and

I've ridden with casual groups quite comfortably where we just intermingle with little thought to the differences.

It probably helps to have the strongest upright rider (or the most aero-efficient one) behind the bent(s) in the paceline - so when you take your turn at the front they can manage the load.

What Lief said, plus: On the Saturday ride, I like to arrive late so I can go really fast to catch the group. Then later, I'll go out front and pull for a while at a pace that I can stand for a few miles. The guys behind me will get some draft, but they can only last so long, so they will end up rotating out from behind me before they completely blow up. Guys that haven't ridden with me before give me many compliments on my pulls, but they don't know I'm holding back so I don't drop the group.

 

[ReklinedRider]

Well I'm still new to riding in any sort of group let alone a paceline. The folks I've been lucky enough to fall in with are a convivial bunch of several dozen mostly DF riders of varying abilities. I say mostly DF riders since there are several 'bent riders who preceded me, including our own castlerobber. So they're used to the occasional recumbent even though often it's just me on a given day. I've worked my way up to the 'faster pack' but am acutely aware of pedlpadl's concerns since I feel the same way: being behind me doesn't offer much of a draft, and I hate to just stay in the back being a wheel-suck, even though this group is very gracious about allowing just that. So what I usually do is ride either too far back to really be drafting, or off to the side so I can sort of move forward and back depending on terrain. On the V I rarely have trouble staying up on climbs but then I hate being in the line and having to constantly scrub speed on the downhills. So I drift along to the left, and on downhills just coast, sometimes passsing nearly the whole line, then continue coasting on the flat or next uphill till I'm back in the back and off to the side, and resume pedaling, having enjoyed a nice break That way I don't feel like a parasite, and feel pretty good knowing that my solo pace could be the same even without the pace line. The good thing about the group is it keeps me from getting lazy like I might do on my own and gives me good motivation to suck it up and keep up even without much* drafting.
If I'm lucky maybe I'll find a smaller rider to team up with like ratz and Lief talked about earlier. Would love to take my turn on pulls and feel like I'm actually contributing. That would be cool.

*confession: I do occasionally slip into the line and draft on the flats. Just for practice, of course

 

[DavidCH]

I usually ride the opposite route ... Today it was totally ideal. Against a little wind nice and early. I must have past about 7 pelotons and lots of lookers cheering and giving me a wave. Sitting on the back of a group sucks. Just can't stand that. Just have to overtake. I can see the V as a pace vehicle but I haven't taken the role.

My brother always likes to try to get in front on his DF, when we hit a rest stop it looks like he has been drenched and stewed... Me, fresh as a daisy. Don't think you can mix a pure cycling experience with one of great suffering.

 

[ratz]

a pure cycling experience with one of great suffering.

For the win.

 

[castlerobber]

being behind me doesn't offer much of a draft, and I hate to just stay in the back being a wheel-suck, even though this group is very gracious about allowing just that.

I rode the first half of Tuesday night's "very hot Parkway ride" solo, catching up to the B group just as they were leaving the turnaround. One of the Thursday-night regulars offered me a place in the line, since I hadn't had a chance to rest. I've been careful to let other riders know that I don't have much draft to offer, and let them in front of me when they're coming off a pull. Some of them have caught on that I can see (and faithfully call) "car back" long before they hear the car, so I hope that makes up for the wheel-suck a little bit.

I hate being in the line and having to constantly scrub speed on the downhills.

Yeah, I do a lot of pulling out of line on the downhills. It's getting easier to hang with them on the uphills, but toward the end of the ride, after the last roundabout, I just have to turn it loose to get enough momentum for the last uphill.

One of the DF riders from the B group came over to look at the Silvio afterward, saying he might one day get a recumbent for variety. The Bacchetta CA2 rider, who had also walked up, remarked to him, "You know you can only get those Cruzbikes as framesets." "No, Cruzbike has been selling complete bikes for several years now," I responded. He was quite surprised.

 

[LarryOz]

I decided to take a step on the "wild side" and go join the regular Tuesday night group ride that is about a 20 minute drive away from my house. I was told they leave promptly at 6pm, and ride a 26 mile loop, and that the "fast group" does it in about an hour. I was also told about 60 cyclists also show up and then split into 2 or 3 groups depending on speed. This Tuesday it look like thunderstorms, so only about 15 people showed up! I was the only one on a recumbent. We took took off and the bottom fell out of the clouds after maybe 7-8 minutes. Until then, I pretty much road beside different people and tried to chat a little, etc. After the rain started, my glasses fogged up and I had to take them off. The rain was pelting me so hard (especially in my eyes), that I had to sit nearly straight up in the air to even see a little. Even then it was almost impossible to see anything. The fastest group (about 5 or 6 guys) got a lead on me and the others. It was quite dangerous and I felt very unstable with that much rain on the road. I felt like I was sliding all over the place. Many gravel driveways also totally covered the road with stones. It was rough. After the rain let up a little, I TT's as hard I could stand with the conditions, and finally caught the 4 lead guys with maybe 8 miles left. We chatted a little and one guy complimented me on catching them. We are road together, but I still just stayed to the side and did not try and draft because I could not stand all the water coming off the back of their wheels. Then a couple little dogs ran out in the road and almost caused us to wreck. After that I was in the front and started to pick up speed again to about 26-27mph thinking they would try and catch me, but they never did. I rode back to my car, loaded up and came home. It was still raining. I guess I'll try again next week.
I did video the event if you are interested. I did not have any data for the first 20 minutes or so because I accidentally turned my Garmin off by leaning into it around the start. The only reason I found out was when it tried to turn itself off about 7-8 miles into the ride. I hate it when that happens!
Here's a link to the YouTube video if you would like see it: (See good rain after minute 11, and me riding with leaders and then dog after minute 53) - Enjoy

 

[LMT]

Good job Larry, those flashing blinkies though....

 

[SteveJW]

Typically videos tend to moderate riding conditions, so if it looks this bad in the video, it must have been horrible!

Glad you stayed upright Larry. Not "upright", but... Well, you know what I mean.

 

[ratz]

Good job Larry, those flashing blinkies though....

You get use to the tail lights eventually. On U.S. Roads they are about the only way to get the attention of teenage texters doing 60mph+. The ones we run are considerably brighter than those in the video. The blinding aspect is highly over rated I have followed the wife for 100 miles and within 5 minutes it is natural. The random patterns do seem more pallets able than the rhythmic on offs.

 

[RojoRacing]

If it's a social pace for the group I'll ride anywhere in the group as is the norm for the first few city miles of our weekend group rides. No one is working to keep up and we normally ride two wide and talk to whoever is next to you. I usually end up explaining what races I've done and what other adventures I've been up to because I don't ride the weekend rides regularly so when I do everyone wants to hear what I've been doing. Once we get out of town the real ride starts with everyone forming up single file and now 60% of the riders are only able to hang on due to the draft from the guy in front of them. When this sort of pace line riding is in effect I ride at ether the front or the rear if the group. If I'm riding with friends I don't want to rob the rider who gets stuck behind me of the much needed draft that was barely keeping them in the group and If the group is the more serious type they may outright get pissed at you when they realize they are about to get dropped because they ended up behind you. Because I always feel slow on the Vendetta when in fact I'm not, I have a hard time judging a moderate pace and will usually error to the faster side when I'm pulling the group especially if we were just trying to hold a steady pace and not race. If I'm going to go to the front and pull I normally wait till the other fast riders start something first and the group starts to string out and riders get dropped. With the group in fast mode I can better judge the front end pace and I won't feel bad if I pull them a bit hard. If you want the group to like you then try and not start the attacks but feel free to finish them. If you find the pace at the back in the draft is two easy then try and always ride off to the side with the wind so your getting more exposure and not feeding off the group.

My dad on his TT bike said he thought it was harder to draft me then lead due to the way the air flows off the me. He said it feels like I'm a wedge that scoops up the air and forces it to hit him right in the arms and face which cause turbulence he doesn't get on his own. Even if the draft is better overall with me in front if the reduced air that is hitting him is all concentrated into his face then you'd have to think it would feel windier for him.

Years ago before I ever rode a recumbent we had this one riders who on a recumbent ride with us on a monthly 90 mile fast ride. I was on a DF bike and never really thought or worried about the reduced draft behind him. I do kind of recall always being behind him in rotation with him and I taking extended pull at the front because we were faster then the group avg. I think he ran compact gearing because on the long strait DHs we pull away front the rest of the group with him coasting and me turning the big 53-11. I don't recall him ever dropping me on a DH but I do remember him telling me once that he enjoyed riding with me because I naturally flowed with his pace which was super rare. I told him it was just fun for me to have someone fast to draft for a change. It's probably rather rare to find a rider who is rather fast but also totally void of the typical preconceptions found in the world of cycling.

 

[Tuloose]

On rides with my bike club friends I regularly ride with DF riders with no problem.
On most outings the conventional bikes outnumber the 'bents.
There are probably no more than 25 bent riders in our club membership of 225 and that would be counting the trikes.
The group I ride with are not the hard charging roadies but not as slow as the more strictly social groups.
We do not rate our rides by the alphabet method but I would say I ride with the B group.
We do not usually do pace lines and this is probably the big reason why 'bents are accepted within our ranks.
Recumbents tend to behave like tandems, fast downhill and slow uphill, and this is what is frustrating to a smoothly operating pace line.
I am the only Cruzbike rider in our club and I have earned the grudging respect of the DF riders due to the overall speed and superior climbing ability of the Cruzbike over other recumbent bikes.
I would say that you might want to find a group that you are compatible with.
Usually this will be a more fun & fitness oriented group.
If you find they are too slow you just need to work your way up the ranks, much as Josephweissert has done.
If you can maintain the group's uphill pace you stand a better chance of being accepted.
I had one DF rider who had been drafting me at a fast pace for a few miles mention that he felt my Silvio worked like an airfoil in front of his bike - not as advantageous as drafting another DF but better than nothing!