Rohloff build for Vendetta

fthills

Well-Known Member
I'm always interested in technology that explores what is possible, which explains my experiments with Cruzbike's Silvio and Vendetta. My reasoning is that unless I give these things a go I will never discover for myself what the benefits and problems are for any particular piece of equipment.

And the long brevets which I thouroughly enjoy now ,may not always be possible as the body ages. Time marches on and I don't want to sit on the fence wondering. So for a year or so I've had a Rohloff hub sitting in its box waiting to be mounted to a recumbent. My original plan was to fit it to my rear wheel drive bent , and use it for PBP but time ran out before the event and the idea was shelved.

Now I have two brilliant pieces of technology , the Vendetta and the Rohloff , why not marry them and see how the relationship works out ?

Established Rohloff users are passionate about their equipment. (just like Vendetta owners come to think of it
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) .The reasons they give are many but the ones that appeal to me are:

# The 14 gears .

# They are all evenly spaced. !3.6% difference between each incremental gear

# there is a 526% range in the gearing . There is very nice explanation for what this means here

http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/speedhub/gear_range_comparison/

# I can eliminate the front derailleur and therefore the FD brifter as well

# rom a triple front chainring setup I can have a single or a double setup . (Single is recommended)

# shifting is said to be smooth and reliable .

There is a price to be paid

# its expensive

# less efficient than a Derailleur system

# its heavy


There's only one way to find out what all this means in practice . I build one ,fit it and try it. So here it is:

onesidelace.jpg


This is the hub with DT swiss double butted spokes , brass washers under the spoke heads . Rim is a Mavic.

topviewlace1(1).jpg


Different angle of the build in progress.

rohllace2.jpg


Both sides laced ready for the wheelstand , for tensioning and truing. The hub is resting on the back of a news magazine . Its only now I see the Rolex ad on the back cover . Vendetta , Rohloff, Rolex , quite appropriate really.


rohltruing.jpg


In the stand , only partially tensioned at this stage. This is the easiest wheel I have built. There is no difference in tension between drive and non drive side in the spokes , so none of the fiddling about getting the dish right as with conventional hubs. To true it took me about 30 % of the time compared to my last wheel, The spokes easily tensioned to 850 Nm which is just a bit shy of the recommended maximum as specified by Rohloff.

rohlfork1.jpg


Trial fit into the fork/chainstay assembly, No problems fitting it in . Just took my time and didn't force anything.

The chain and derailleur in the backround are not for the Rohloff. I just left them on for the time being .

rohlinfork2.jpg


View from the drive side.

Now I just have to go and read the manual to see what the next steps are which include fitting the torque arm , the gear mechanism and the cabling. If it goes as smoothly as it has so far it'll be like an early christmas present.

 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
Powertap derailleur Vendetta vs Rohloff Vendetta?

Maybe we can talk Jim and Maria into building a Rohloff Vendetta (Vendetta-R) and compare performance on their usual Vendetta dérailleurs (Vendetta-D) using their Powertap?

How about that for some R&D?
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Sorry, couldn't resist.

-Eric
 

Romagjack

Well-Known Member
Having ridden my Quest 2 with

Having ridden my Quest 2 with IGH extensively (and loved every second), I can only imagine how great an IGH Silvio and Vendetta migh be.
Anxious to hear about your first long ride with the Rohloff.
 

Andrew 1973

Zen MBB Master
HOLY SPOKE STRESS, BATMAN!

I guess that's how a wheel built on a Rohloff hub is supposed to look, but I just can't get past the the bends in the spokes.

I'm interested in hearing your rider report.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi,
I'm very pleased with the


Hi,

I'm very pleased with the response you've gotten. None of this "You can't do that, the Vendetta is just a performance machine" silliness.
If you have different pieces that might fit together in new interesting ways, then go for it. If it doesn't work out, then you go back to what you had. Very simple.

I'll be very interested if you can "feel" the lousiness of the drive. That certainly is one way to get a lower range on the Vendetta (something I think that the Vendetta would need even though I've never actually seen one :) ).

Cheers,
Charles
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Hi     Eric,  Yes that sort


Hi Eric, Yes that sort of data would be very interesting

Romagjack, yeah , me too . I rode a Rohloff for about 5 minutes , many moons ago on a diamond frame bike and I thought it was pretty smooth too.

Andrew, when I first started building wheels I thought there is no way the spokes are going to withstand these kind of contortions , but they are obviously built to a very high specification. A raw spoke in the hand is reasonably flexible , and the other reason you see significant bends in the pics . is the hub flange diameters are much wider than a standard hub so the spokes are much shorter and have to bend more to reach the holes in the rims.

Oh and the flange diameter means its a 2 cross construction , rather than the more conventional 3 cross. I tried 3 cross but the acute tangential angle spoke to hub made this impractical.

If anyone is interested in wheelbulding I highly recommend this downloadable PDF . At $9 it covers all aspects of wheelbuilding in a very practical sequential manner. It runs to over 100 pages and includes a chapter on how to build a wheelstand out of MDF.

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Charles, hit the nail right on the head ! On the wheelstand it certainly does not freewheel as smoothhly as a conventional hub. If this translates in practice to slower times , the wheel will be transferred to another project.


A challenge remains . Its the gearshifter . there is no way of making it fit to a standard unmodified Salsa woodchipper drop handlebar .
So I have to find a solution somehow .

If any of you have a suggestion, I'd welcome the ideas.

There is a website dedicated to alternatives to the original gearshifter , proposing 13 alternatives , but none of them are ideal for the V setup. Ideally for me the shifter should be where the brifter is now . This is a very comfortable , ergonomic position.

My preferred solution for the minute is to fit a mountain bike flat bar , put some bar ends on and put the shifter at the base of the bar end. Part of the problem is that the original shifters internal diameter is not a conventional road dimension.

gearshft1.jpg


shft2.jpg


The external diameter of the woodchippers at their narrowest is 24mm.
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Does anyone have a bullhorn

Does anyone have a bullhorn bar and is able to measure the external diameter on the end of the horn for me ?
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
John ........Electric shift ,

John ........Electric shift , there's a guy in Melbourne who makes them .

http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/EdsanProducts.htm

Might send the company an email to ask about weight of the bike components.
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
from memory bullhorn bars are

from memory bullhorn bars are OD 24.0mm ... for road bike stuff, including bar end shifters.
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Thanks , John.
Qute difficult


Thanks , John.

Qute difficult to find this info online. The diameter of the bar at the stem is always quoted but that's about it
 

ak-tux

Zen MBB Master
Alfine may be better suited for drop bars

This i great stuff!

Reading through this thread it looks to me like Shimano Alfine-11 speed may a fit better on Silvio/Vendetta dropbars.

Shimano is also planning a Di2 for Alfine in 2013 see here: http://road.cc/content/news/53529-shimano-launch-alfine-di2

But at the moment three is a manufacturer for mechanicall STI levers for Alfine 11 and 8 Speed called versa here:
http://www.sussex.com.tw/versa.html and on ebay link here ->.

Versa VRS-11 and Versa VRS-8 Road Shifters
VRS-11-Road-Shifter_lg.jpg

 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Oh wow, Thanks Ak . Now

Oh wow, Thanks Ak . Now that's exactly what should be available for the Rohloff. It's the perfect soltion. I don't know why Rohloff don't make some similar alternative shifters. They must know that its not a one size fits all market. The new alfine was unfortunately not available when I bought the Rohloff. Thanks for the link.
 

bikeday

New Member
Rohloff shifter for drop bars

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gilles-berthoud-gilles-berthoud-twister-for-rohloff-hubs-prod27131/
Have you seen the Gilles Berthoud shifter?
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
Yes , I have , thanks for the

Yes , I have , thanks for the link. I have the problem almost worked out now. The main hassle with the original Rohloff shifter , and the Berthoud is that cables at the point they leave the shifter are out in the open rather than close or inside the handlebar, so not very attractive or aerodynamic . The other consideration is that somehow I'd like the brake to be simultaneously in the same hand, following a similar principle to brifters where you can brake and shift at the same time. The Berthould is attractive in that it can be fitted to bigger bars and be threaded around the curve of drop bars. Thanks again for the link.
 

mickjordan

Well-Known Member
BERTHOUD shifter

Is it possible to fit the Berthoud shifter at the end of the bar,i.e. like bar end shifters, and route the cables under the tape? That would seem like it might work well ergonomically.

OTH the Rohloff is super expensive, over twice the price of the Shimano Alfine in the US, which has better shifter options. The question is whether the Rohloff really is better. I know it has a 20% larger gear range for one.
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
I'm ready for a test ride :

I'm ready for a test ride : some fotos follow , bear in mind these are straight off the test bench , so it hasn't been prettied up with bar tape , shortening of cables to ideal length , makeup etc.

frontview.jpg height: 853px;


This is what test configuration looks like. Time trial aero bars . straight bar ends both sides with one brake lever operating both front and rear brake

cpit3.jpg


left hand cockpit view. Forearm is supported. hand feels natural in that position. Cables are in mid air at the moment till I test ride and see what its like.

cpit2.jpg


Right hand. The cables ,forearm , handlebar each fall into each others airflow shadow I think. So I'm hoping for no added airflow turbulence,not that I have the means of measuring this.

cpit1.jpg


Hand off the shifter . The hand feels like its falling naturally onto the bar end. Brake lever is in easy reach.

hbaright.jpg



Side view of whole handlebar. the extensions to the bars is something I made given that the bar ends will not fit onto the bullhorns. Once i figure out the fit they may need to be be shortened .

nofd.jpg


Look!!! no front derailleur , no cables . Once I work out which is the best chairing , the other 2 will go , for another bit of weight saving and simplification.

shiftrbrk.jpg


Closer look at the dual braking system . I did the mods but the idea came from the net.

nondrivesid.jpg


The setup on the non drive side

sideview.jpg


Side view. Rohloff chain tensioner mounted on Cruzbike derailleur , no problems with fitting. Some setups dont require the chain tensioner because the bottom bracket to dropout distance can be modified. For example there are eccentric bottom brackets and dropouts that allow forward and rearward fixing of the drive axle.

On the test bench impressions :

1) Its heavier than a conventional setup . How much I'm not sure , I don't own a good set of scales.

2 ) It looks more aero than the woodchipper/brifter arrangement and it feels more comfortable in the hand. More forearm resting on handlebar I think is the reason.

3) Shifting is quick, very quick with the drive wheel spinning freely in mid air.

The Rohloff freewheel mechanism is nowhere near as frictionless as the Ultegra hub.

How all this translates to onroad performance remains to be tested.

I'll describe this in a different thread once I have some km on the dial.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi,
Looks very cool.  Thanks


Hi,

Looks very cool. Thanks for the pictures and the updates. Please keep them coming.

Question (and I fell like I've seen the answer to this somewhere): Why do you have both brakes controlled by a single lever? Couldn't you put them on the other side?

Thanks,
Charles
 

fthills

Well-Known Member
 Thanks again Charels ,

Thanks again Charels , you're always generous with your feedback. I don't have a good answer to the brake thing , and it may be that in the end I end up with two brake handles.

One thing for sure the time trial brakes designed for bull horns don't feel ergonomically right for this setup. The angle of forearm to wrist to hand to brake doesn't feel natural. No reason not to put a conventional flat bar brake as per the other side.

I guess in some ways in line with Rohloff I wanted to simplify . Fewer derailleurs ,fewer other bits , can i reduce things even more. ?

In the end it may prove to be a dud experiment . I'll soon find out.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi,
I see a few possible


Hi,

I see a few possible disadvantages to having one brake lever for both brakes (there are advantages too, but I'm not going to go into them now). None of them may apply, but I'll point them out before you ride, just in case. :)

- You have to make sure your brakes are adjusted more or less identically. You don't want one brake to engage before the other. My bike is definitely not currently tuned like this (I'm lazy). This is the one point I want to bring up before you ride. I'm sure you can tune them like this, but if you don't think about it ahead of time, you might not.

* You'll need to provide twice as much pressure with a single hand. - May not be a problem for you at all (it woudln't be for me).

* When braking hard, I don't squeeze both my brakes the same amount. Most of the braking power is the front brake, but you definitely don't want to lock it. Locking the rear brake isn't good, but it's usually not horrible. This depends largely on your braking style.

After you're sure you're safe, go out and ride with the single brake lever. I'll be very curous about your experiences with it.

Cheers,
Charles
 
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