Silvio speeds

[Ward]

New to the forum and extremely interested in the Silvio. One thing I am not seeing is postings for ride distances with total times/ride times and adverage speeds. I know that everyone's speed varies according to their own engine, however, it would be nice to have something to go on. Also, the amount of downtime over long rides gives an indication of just how comfortable a bike really is.

I currently have a Bacchetta ti-Aero and depending upon course and conditions I will usually adverage 17-19 mph and on a typical century will be off the bike for only about 15-20 minutes. My fastest rides have been 19.6 mph adv for 50 miles with only 3-4 miniutes off of the bike.

So, if you can post any numbers on your Silvio I would be intersted also if you have any comparison numbers with other bents that would be great too.

I have a full ultegra donar bike just waiting for me to decide what to do, help me out here.

Ward

 

[Mark B]

Ward wrote: New to the forum and extremely interested in the Silvio. One thing I am not seeing is postings for ride distances with total times/ride times and adverage speeds. I know that everyone's speed varies according to their own engine, however, it would be nice to have something to go on. Also, the amount of downtime over long rides gives an indication of just how comfortable a bike really is.

I currently have a Bacchetta ti-Aero and depending upon course and conditions I will usually adverage 17-19 mph and on a typical century will be off the bike for only about 15-20 minutes. My fastest rides have been 19.6 mph adv for 50 miles with only 3-4 miniutes off of the bike.

So, if you can post any numbers on your Silvio I would be intersted also if you have any comparison numbers with other bents that would be great too.

I have a full ultegra donar bike just waiting for me to decide what to do, help me out here.

Ward

Hey Ward,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm still packing about 30 pounds more than I should on my bike and did a pretty flat century in 5:45ish ride time, 17.7 average. That was just ride time. We stopped for about 20 minutes total and I don't think I ever got off the bike except to go to the bathroom. I probably could have had a better average except for slowing and or waiting on regroups and such. That's a lot of the issue I have with average speeds because I spend a lot of time waiting on the group! Good problem to have, I guess!

I moved to the Silvio from a strada. I felt the Silvio was much faster at the time. I'm still amazed at the acceleration sometimes. I'll be lazily strolling along about 16 mph and bump to 19-20 without that much more effort. I find it to be a pretty amazing bike and superbly comfortable for a hardshell seat with not much cushion.

I'd suggest you go for it, but would caution that this is not a bike you'll build one day and do a century on the next. There is a learning curve to a Cruzbike. It's very easily mastered, though you will wonder how the first time you wobble up and down the street. Once you get a handle on it, you learn quickly that the things that made it hard to ride are a positive, once you have it under control. By contrast, once you master the Cruzbike, you will try to ride your Aero and swear up and down there's something wrong with it! Don't ask me how I know this!!

Mark

 

[Ward]

My bent prior to the Aero was a Strata. The difference between the two was mainly the sprinting with the Aero. I rode a softrider for a little while down at Hamptons Edge in florida and felt like the learning curve wouldn't be that big a problem, and i really like the idea of recruiting more upper body and core into a daily workout.

What groupo are you running, wheelset, and how much weight. If you could change anything right now about your silvio what would it be?

Thanks
Ward

 

[Mark B]

Ward wrote: My bent prior to the Aero was a Strata. The difference between the two was mainly the sprinting with the Aero. I rode a softrider for a little while down at Hamptons Edge in florida and felt like the learning curve wouldn't be that big a problem, and i really like the idea of recruiting more upper body and core into a daily workout.

What groupo are you running, wheelset, and how much weight. If you could change anything right now about your silvio what would it be?

Thanks
Ward

I cannabalized my old Pinarello for my build. It's a mixture of nine speed Campy components, mostly Mirage and Veloce. The wheels were hand built on Mirage hubs, 32 spoke, mismatched rims, nothing special and pretty heavy duty because of my weight. I did upgrade brakes because I found a killer deal on some older style Centaur dual pivot calipers. Right now, she goes about 27 pounds. If I could change anything about the bike, I would probably upgrade some of the componentry. Truthfully, as much as I like Campy stuff, I was seriously thinking about changing to Shimano so I could get a wider gear ratio. but, as I lose weight and get fitter, I find I'm able to climb better on taller gears, so I'm planning to hold off.

I was about 265-70 when I started riding Cruzbikes. I credit Cruzbike for lighting the fire in my furnace; getting me excited about being back on the bike. I'm down 45-50 pounds and back to riding with roadie friends I had been unable to keep up with for years. In fact, I'm oftentimes waiting for them at regroup points, even climbs! I credit the FWD MBB for making me a better cyclist and for exciting me to become such. I can say this not just because I bought one Silvio, moreso because I actually bought two! I managed to tear my first one off the roof rack with a low overhang. I could have bought anything I wanted, but went with another Silvio. The whole sordid story can be found elswhere on this site.

I've never ridden a Softrider. I built a conversion and rode that exclusively for a month, or two, then popped for the Silvio. Like you, I wobbled up and down the street and saw where it was completely doable. I was playing in traffic in short order and commuting to work not long after that. The Silvio was the next logical progression. I sold my other bents (Strada and Vision R42) to finance mine. If Doug chimes in here, he has a pretty extensive bent collection, but (I think) only rides his Cruzbikes. They're more fun, they work better and you don't have two miles of chain to keep clean and drag around all the time.

Mark

 

[Ward]

I can certainly relate to keeping all of that chain clean. Thanks for all the info.

Ward

 

[Doug Burton]

Mark B wrote: If Doug chimes in here, he has a pretty extensive bent collection, but (I think) only rides his Cruzbikes. They're more fun, they work better and you don't have two miles of chain to keep clean and drag around all the time.

Mark

Yea, verily!

Ward, I think Mark's experience should be very helpful to you because Mark came from a very similar "platform" to yours. He's chronicled his experience and progress here very completely and has been a help in some of the development that happens in the background in Cruzbike Land.

Where Mark pursues F-16 performance, I'm trying to duplicate the Burt Rutan Voyager approach, going the longest distance with the least energy.

I'm not a great rider, so I only look at improvement rather than speed. My first Cruzbike was about 2 mph faster over an MS150 than my Vision R40, and my Silvio was 1.5mph faster than the kit bike that succeeded the Vision. My red kit bike was extensively influenced by the Aero, the Volae, and some one-off hiracers that can be seen in Cycle Vision photo archives.

I've been fortunate enough to build 2 Silvios, one for Bryan Ball's review, and one that I ride and use for groupset testing and parts development. Shimano seems best for versatility in groupsets, as you can mix MTB cassettes with road controls and fine-tune the bike precisely to your riding style and predominant local landscape.

Campy controls work really well on the Silvio because, as opposed to Shimano, the brifter cables run back along the handlebars, rather than out the inside and down, and this keeps than away from your knees. This isn't a big problem as you can route the Shimano cables around your knees, but the Campy parts make for a cleaner-looking bike (IMHO). On the other hand, Campy doesn't really support cassettes with large tooth-count low gears, having a 13/29 cassette as their "climing option".

Cruzbike has recently improved support for triple cranksets on the Silvio, and a Campy triple works very well for touring and other distance work with the available Campy cassettes. IRD supplies a 12/34 cassette now for Campy wheels, but I've not tried that yet. I'm using an IRD 12/28 cassette. But Bryan's review bike is all Campy, with a complete Centaur 10sp. groupset and 13/29 cassette, and it runs very very sweetly.

Marc is right, the garage is full of recumbents, and the Cruzbikes are the only ones that get ridden. I was preparing to pare down the inventory when the economy belched, so I'm holding off.

Ward, bring all the questions. I'll photograph, assemble, disassemble, or mock-up anything you might be interested in checking out.

Best,

 

[Ward]

wow, that campy sure does make for a clean bike. Thats really going to make me rethink the Ultegra donor I have. Thanks for the great pictures. Now I just have to bide my time until I can order a frameset.

Ward

 

[Ward]

Doug, I am considering tailoring my silvio build for climbing. My thought is to utilize a MTB triple crank with an 11-32 rd. My question is are there any shifter brake road combo's that would be compatible?

There are several centuries around here that have over 10,000 feet of climbing that don't turn out to be that much fun on the aero with my 26-32 being my lowest gearing. The closed poisition of the Silvio with the MTB gearing I think would be a winning combination.

What do you think

Ward

 

[Doug Burton]

Ward wrote: Doug, I am considering tailoring my silvio build for climbing. My thought is to utilize a MTB triple crank with an 11-32 rd. My question is are there any shifter brake road combo's that would be compatible?

There are several centuries around here that have over 10,000 feet of climbing that don't turn out to be that much fun on the aero with my 26-32 being my lowest gearing. The closed poisition of the Silvio with the MTB gearing I think would be a winning combination.

What do you think

Ward

Ward,

Shimano parts, with their cross-compatibility between MTB and road components, can allow about any drivetrain you want.

That being said,

Is this a lot of long hills at mid-grade, short and steep, long and steep? You can get a gear range that allows anything by building a 53/39/24 crankset on a 130mm spider, and preserve your ability to zoom the downhills, which I think you'll lose with a 44t top ring MTB set. An 11/34 9-speed cassette should work well. If you use I wide crankset like described above, you can use almost any crank length. 165mm is the shortest common length.

Also remember we're talking about 700c wheels instead of 26" or 650c... A little more travel per revolution = slightly higher gearing.

However... you need to consider that this is FWD, and the front end will unload if the incline is super steep (i'm talking near off-road technical ascent) so this will limit the utility of super low gears. Arm involvement will also raise the minimum needed low gear...

More info about your environment/terrain will allow a better answer from me and the rest of the brain trust around here...

best,

 

[Ward]

Doug, The hills range from 3 to 8 miles long wth adverage grades of 5-6 %. However there are nice sections of 1/4 to 1/2 miles long that have grades up into the upper teens. Generally the downhills are the feather-the-brake variety and on the few flat sections between major climbs its all about recovery and not hammering. I find that as long as I can maintain a high cadence I am better off than trying to mash but as the grade increases over about 7 or 8 percent no chance with my current gearing.

The triple you describe sounds reasonable, however, with that big a range will there be shifting issues?


Ward

 

[Doug Burton]

Ward wrote: Doug, The hills range from 3 to 8 miles long wth adverage grades of 5-6 %. However there are nice sections of 1/4 to 1/2 miles long that have grades up into the upper teens. Generally the downhills are the feather-the-brake variety and on the few flat sections between major climbs its all about recovery and not hammering. I find that as long as I can maintain a high cadence I am better off than trying to mash but as the grade increases over about 7 or 8 percent no chance with my current gearing.

The triple you describe sounds reasonable, however, with that big a range will there be shifting issues?


Ward

Sounds like a very athletic riding environment!

I should tell you I've not built a triple like that one yet, and your questions about shifting are good ones. The Ultegra cage is about as long as you can get without going to "historical" parts like Suntour...

The principal driver with a small inner chainring, strangely enough, is your x-seam length. The chainstay angle (normally the angle between the seatpost and and the chainstays; for Cruzbikes this is the angle between the Top Front Tube and the chainstays) is almost always 63-68 degrees on a conventional frame, and front drivetrains are built to operate in this range. This angle opens up and contracts on the Cruzbike depending on the length setting on the TFT. So a short x-seam can cause the chain to drag the front derailleur cage in the bottom chainring as the chainstay angle exceeds 75 degrees or so. John has issued a modified TFT to fix this; it offers five different derailleur positions to tune this problem out, but it wasn't built with a 22-24t ring in mind. My suspicion is you'll need to be 6' tall to make a 22t ring work, but I think I have enough stuff around here to check it.

I don't think we can make Campy parts accomodate these low gear selections as the longest cage Campy rear derailleur has the equivalent of a mid-length Shimano cage. Never thought about putting a Shimano cage on a Campy derailleur body... hmmm... :lol:

I think we can make the rest of the shifting work if we can use a long-cage rear (lower!) derailleur on the rear.

So you are designing the first "Alpine" Silvio!

This is interesting; keep asking questions!

Best,

 

[Ward]

Doug,

x-seam is about 43-43.5 if that helps with your calculations.

The other thing about having the Mtb gearing is it would force me to work on my high speed spinning. I have trouble holding a cadence greater than about 80-85 for an extended period.

Ward

 

[Mark B]

Ward,

I thougt about building a bike around a road triple and mountain bike cassette/rear derailleur. I still may, but I'm not near as concerned about it since I've lost some weight and gotten fitter. I've found that I'm climbing much better than I was. Doug is correct in that the front end unloads as the road steepens, but I've been able to climb into the high teens grade-wise. I did have to get off on a 23 percent grade that was covered in sand and pine needles. The point I'm trying to make is that the Silvio climbs much better than you would think because of the drivetrain effeciency and the involvement of the upper body. The fact you can spin the front wheel is testament to the power you can put to the road surface. I believe the mountain bike crankset would be total overkill and you would not get the top end you would want. I think anything more than a 30 up front and on the rear would be a waste on the low end. Antything lower than a 52-11 on the top end is a waste of a rocket-ship of a bike.

Mark

 

[Ward]

Mark B wrote: Ward,

I thougt about building a bike around a road triple and mountain bike cassette/rear derailleur. I still may, but I'm not near as concerned about it since I've lost some weight and gotten fitter. I've found that I'm climbing much better than I was. Doug is correct in that the front end unloads as the road steepens, but I've been able to climb into the high teens grade-wise. I did have to get off on a 23 percent grade that was covered in sand and pine needles. The point I'm trying to make is that the Silvio climbs much better than you would think because of the drivetrain effeciency and the involvement of the upper body. The fact you can spin the front wheel is testament to the power you can put to the road surface. I believe the mountain bike crankset would be total overkill and you would not get the top end you would want. I think anything more than a 30 up front and on the rear would be a waste on the low end. Antything lower than a 52-11 on the top end is a waste of a rocket-ship of a bike.

Mark

Mark, what I am looking for is not just being able to climb but to specifically climb long steep grades as rapidly as possible. There are seveal organized centuries in this area with the primary purpose to seeing just how many vertical feet they can cram into 100 miles. 10,000 to 13,000 feet of climbing is what I am looking at. When I am coasting on the downhills at 50 mph while feathering my brakes I am completely unconcerned about a large chainring. However while slogging up miles of an 8 percent grade the ability to keep a nice high cadence versus grinding away at 35-40 rpm is much more telling on my overall outcome for the ride.

Currently I can ride hours and hours in my comfort zone with a cadence of 75-85. However, on the flats that is in the large chainring and my ability to increase my speed is limited due to my bodies inability to maintain a higher cadence. This also limits my climbing abilities as once you start grinding on a hill forget about it. So, using the MTB gearing would force me to work on increasing my cadence on the flats which would ultimately increase me overall speed.

Right at this moment the point maybe moot. A Carbent Sea Dragon has become available with a price that I could not pass up. So I think my plan now is to work with it as my climber. If it doesn't work then either the Carbent or the ti-Aero will be sold and I will try the Silvio at that time.

Thanks to both you and Doug for all of your input and I intend to continue to monitor the forum here. I remain positive that in the future I will have a Silvio.

Ward