Something new - rather old - or (has Larry gone back to the DARK SIDE)

[super slim]

I find the whole front end of the Vendetta to be rather flexible under high efforts compared to my aero road bike which is on the rather stiff side of the DF would. We have to be loosing a constant % of efficient under lower cadence high load climbs and sprints. Where I notice the flex the most is on the trainer where I don't have anything else to really distract me.

Jason does your CF DF bike flex as much when on the indoor trainer?

Could you mount three low wattage laser pointers to your handle bars near the brifters, also next to the headstem, and to the BB, and if you power meter can show force and zero revs, then apply the same force to the pedals and handle bars and use the pointer on some graph paper stuck to a wall, to measure the deflection, on both bike types.

 

[super slim]

That always gives me Macgyver flashbacks

The thin about Titanium bikes is they just look so dam nice and classic. Maybe I'm old bike snob guy but I like the look better than carbon....

View attachment 4337 View attachment 4338


Maybe just a titanium boom and fork upgrade

I agree!!! with the same dia as the Vendetta V2.0 but the same headstem clamp arrangement as the V20, and ALL Polished!!!

BUT have it as an option, for the very serious racers!

I think that the speed improvements of going to a vendetta from a DF bike, due to the improved Aero, COMFORT, and still being able to use the upper body muscles for $4.5K, compared to a DF at $10K, means that expensive upgrades might not be required!

I think that Ratz's training program, and more race winning Vendettas (keep the price at $4.5K) at events, will be better for sales than very expensive lighter Vendettas!

What is the price and weight of the CF Encores, and how many failures have they had?

 

[super slim]

Larry Oz's new ride:
View attachment 4330
Sweet huh??!! - The guy said it was faster than "anything" he had ridden... Well, he obviously had not ridden my Vendetta.

View attachment 4331

No - I have not gone back over to the "dark side", but I do want to get to the bottom of how and why a DF can climb with so much less power and figure out if anything can be discovered that can be used to help the Vendetta climb with less power too.

Testing plans:
Outfit both bikes with the same weight (may have to add some to the Giant)
Use the same rider, cranks, wheelsets, chain, helmet, shoes, etc.

Testing protocol:

• Coast down testing on a local hill.
• hill climbing under constant wattage load (different grades, and different wattage levels)
  • - test Giant fully seated for one run, then fully standing for another
  • - test the Vendetta fully laid back in seat, and then leaning up pull on handlebars
• track loops under constant wattage load.

Any other ideas from the group?

Are you REALLY going to ride on those 10 spoked CF wheels???

 

[ratz]

With two clamps on the headrest tubes, these only need to just extend past the 2nd clamp!
I was surprised that I must have a short body trunk, as the headrest tubes are finally in their shortest position!
The distance when sitting from a seat, to the top of my shoulders (is this a special Y?? seam) is only 26.8"
What are other riders Y?? seam?

See my V20 finding the fit post; the same formula "in theory" should work on a silvio; you probably have you boom too far out; making you slide forward too far; and then the head rest has to come way in to hold you in that position. If you get the boom length right then the head will jump back quit a bit.

You can also look at your old Silvo and measure from front edge of the seat pay to the center of the crank axle. The new silvio should be close to the same dimension.

 

[ratz]

If the 3.6 X ratio is correct then 41*3.6 = 147, approx 150 mm minimum engagement of the Slider tube is required!

I think you are pretty close there; the new stock boom has insertion markings from 0-20; if you set the boom to 20 you would have 185mm in the slider; and the "cut area for the squeeze bracket" is 35mm so 185-35=150mm for the overlap of non-weakened material. The trick then is just dialing in your fit and always leaving about 200mm of boom past what you think your mark is. Then the question is how much weight you save per mm removed....

 

[super slim]

I think you are pretty close there; the new stock boom has insertion markings from 0-20; if you set the boom to 20 you would have 185mm in the slider; and the "cut area for the squeeze bracket" is 35mm so 185-35=150mm for the overlap of non-weakened material. The trick then is just dialing in your fit and always leaving about 200mm of boom past what you think your mark is. Then the question is how much weight you save per mm removed....

51 gm/100 mm for the Slider Tube
50 gm / 120 mm of two headrest 19 mm od tubes

 

[Mark B]

I guess you guys are at a waaaay different place than I am. Before I start worrying about the weight of my bike, I have plenty of weight to remove from my butt.

Mark

 

[LarryOz]

I guess you guys are at a waaaay different place than I am. Before I start worrying about the weight of my bike, I have plenty of weight to remove from my butt.

Most of us except Jason, and Jim could probably say the same thing.
Not my butt, but my stomach. Just can't get rid of that donut roll!
Perhaps it is the donuts? But Jason does not seem to have that problem. But of course he is not stuck inside a 57 year old body like me either, who metabolism appears to be slowing down year by year.
Eventually I will not have to eat anything to stay alive - just breathe air is all!

 

[super slim]

I definitely fit into your category with an oversized stomach, an Aeo belly!
And for me, I need to loose the weight of a bike!!!
For me I am riding two bikes at once!
So loosing 100 gm bike weight is not important to me, as a touring rider!

 

[Mark B]

Sorry for the Fredjack.

 

[RojoRacing]

Most of us except Jason, and Jim could probably say the same thing.
Not my butt, but my stomach. Just can't get rid of that donut roll!
Perhaps it is the donuts? But Jason does not seem to have that problem. But of course he is not stuck inside a 57 year old body like me either, who metabolism appears to be slowing down year by year.
Eventually I will not have to eat anything to stay alive - just breathe air is all!

As Ratz says when referring to my FTP progress, I'm firmly in the land of marginal gains and that includes my weight. These past two weeks I've cut out most of my cookie consumption and general over eating habits, I normally eat until I'm pleasantly plump but still not dropping weight. I do this from time to time when motivation strikes but not because I want to loose weight. It's more a side effect of me getting motivated to cook more food instead to opting for that box of cookies or taco stand burrito for dinner. I actually love eating the food I make but I'm normally far too lazy to put in the time to cook. What I will say is even though I've not lost a lb, I feel lighter on my feet. My over eating habits always keep my stomach plump which results in a more lethargic state.

So if you can loose weight then do it. If you can't loose weight, at least adjust you intake so you can feel great at your current weight. When you feel great you'll make more power.

I think if CruzBike would seal off the main section of the frame and add a shrader port we could feel the frame with helium or hydrogen and save several grams.

 

[bladderhead]

That would raise your centre of gravity a lot. What you need is a pair of balloons that look like Radical bags, one each side of the seat. This would be crash-protection too.

You would not need to lean it against anything or use any kind of kick-stand, but you would absolutely have to tie it down.

 

[trplay]

What you need is a pair of balloons that look like Radical bags, one each side of the seat.

An aero design inspired by the wind tunnel tests have the Team Moose Skunk Works playing with something that looks a lot like that. They are being called Moose Wings.

 

[trapdoor2]

You could make the frame from upsidasium, but then instead of a kickstand, you'd need a tether.

 

[Balor]

No - I have not gone back over to the "dark side", but I do want to get to the bottom of how and why a DF can climb with so much less power and figure out if anything can be discovered that can be used to help the Vendetta climb with less power too.

Testing plans:
Outfit both bikes with the same weight (may have to add some to the Giant)
Use the same rider, cranks, wheelsets, chain, helmet, shoes, etc.

Testing protocol:

• Coast down testing on a local hill.
• hill climbing under constant wattage load (different grades, and different wattage levels)
  • - test Giant fully seated for one run, then fully standing for another
  • - test the Vendetta fully laid back in seat, and then leaning up pull on handlebars
• track loops under constant wattage load.

Umm... it is not that DF bikes climb faster with less power, they climb slower at same wattage if weight is the same because they are less aerodynamic.
Climbing at same wattage will prove nothing except this obvious fact.

DFs climb faster because you can generate much better wattage at less subjective exertion level, especially at FTP and above level.

You need to be totally blinded to speed and your power level, and go for maximum possible subjective exertion level on both platforms, and analyse your power and speed afterwards.
You also need to spend quite a bit of time to get accustomed to DF platform again - because your pedalling patterns would NOT be effective on DF platform. My DF power dropped quite a bit after I've got 'bent legs' because I've developed more round pedal stroke, with more emphasis on 'scraping' than simply pushing. No, it does not help you on DF, it is the other way around, as proved by EMG studies of professional athletes, and I can fully attest to that.

 

[RojoRacing]

Umm... it is not that DF bikes climb faster with less power, they climb slower at same wattage if weight is the same because they are less aerodynamic.
Climbing at same wattage will prove nothing except this obvious fact.

DFs climb faster because you can generate much better wattage at less subjective exertion level, especially at FTP and above level.

You need to be totally blinded to speed and your power level, and go for maximum possible subjective exertion level on both platforms, and analyse your power and speed afterwards.
You also need to spend quite a bit of time to get accustomed to DF platform again - because your pedalling patterns would NOT be effective on DF platform. My DF power dropped quite a bit after I've got 'bent legs' because I've developed more round pedal stroke, with more emphasis on 'scraping' than simply pushing. No, it does not help you on DF, it is the other way around, as proved by EMG studies of professional athletes, and I can fully attest to that.

That's only true if the rider was made aware of the recumbents inability to produce maximum power when compared to a DF. In my case you guys forgot to inform me of this fatal flaw in the bent design and now I climb at the same power on both bikes. I've tried to become weaker while climbing on the V but I think I've missed my opportunity and fear I'll never get on par with general community of bent riders.

 

[RojoRacing]

Sorry, my sarcasm is always super strong and on point first thing in the morning.

 

[Balor]

That's only true if the rider was made aware of the recumbents inability to produce maximum power when compared to a DF. In my case you guys forgot to inform me of this fatal flaw in the bent design and now I climb at the same power on both bikes. I've tried to become weaker while climbing on the V but I think I've missed my opportunity and fear I'll never get on par with general community of bent riders.

Well, USUALLY cannot. MBBs seem to be different and this is exactly why I'm here, btw.
My point still stands - unless you are trying to prove something VERY obvious, protocol needs to be changed.

 

[Balor]

Oh, and you've been alternating between DF bikes and MBB bents, while doing a LOT of mileage on both.
You are a rather unique case, but you already know that .

Btw, you've reported that you climb at the same speed, but with more subjective level of effort on Vendetta than on DF. Is it still true?

That's only true if the rider was made aware of the recumbents inability to produce maximum power when compared to a DF.

Anyway, nobody warned me that you need a few damn YEARS to get anywhere near your DF power on a bent, I've found it out all on my own.
And it took a switch to MBB bent to finally make some progress - nearly instantly, I must add.
My current bent is no cruzbike, it is heavy, flexy and with pretty abysmal aerodynamics, so I'm still behind my DF days, but at least I'm hopeful that once that changes - my results will finally change, too.

 

[ratz]

Do you racers need an adjustable boom, could it be lightened further by a fixed length unit sized to your specifications once you know them?

I missed this one. Change shoes, cleat, pedals,cranks, or seat pads and the boom has to be adjusted.