SRAM 11-speed 11-36 cassette for double chainrings?

[super slim]

I think your Computer fixing abilities has rubbed off to bicycle repairs!

Dear "Mr Gadget" have you got the latest on when the Sram Wireless derailleur systems are going to be released, as they were raced in the Tour Down Under in January, and they have 6 or 8 months before they are to be released to the public!!!!
Is this the future with NO WIRES????

 

[ratz]

have you got the latest on when the Sram Wireless derailleur systems are going to be released

I think they are being over cautious because of the hydro problems that was a tough punch in the face for them.

Last I read these were the newest articles and that seems to be true still

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...ss-electronic-group-details-discovered-42174/
http://www.chainreactionhub.com/road/1382-sram-to-release-wireless-electronic-groupset
http://www.bikeroar.com/articles/to-tap-or-not-to-tap-srams-electronic-wireless-shifters

So I would expect we'd see them on the race circuit this year.
Announced for the public in January, shipping next July / August; 2016

So debugged and working unit June 2017 and potentially affordable in 2018.

That would match what it took for Di2 Ultegra to be viable by my standards.

So just in time for a new vendetta for me

 

[ratz]

I think your Computer fixing abilities has rubbed off to bicycle repairs!

Bikes weigh less so perhaps it a retirement goal; the 4 servers and upses next to my desk for this week weigh like 40kg per box; makes we want to ride the bike and just ignore them. If I move em I'll be too tired to ride.

 

[super slim]

Bob at 40 Kgs each, they are not 19" rack servers, so what are they and do they run UNIX instead of that horrible Apple software?

 

[Abbott Smith]

That would match what it took for Di2 Ultegra to be viable by my standards.

So just in time for a new vendetta for me

Ratz,
So I've been out of cycling for the past seven years. This is my first season back. Can you give me a synopsis of Di2 and your impression of how well it works for recreational riding?

 

[ratz]

Can you give me a synopsis of Di2 and your impression of how well it works for recreational riding?

This thread has much of the cool we discussed especially when it comes to the new MTB stuff and it's implications.

The full review will be coming when I hit about 1000 road miles on it. I have things to play with different setups for things like button configuration and multi-shift.

But from a build / maintenance standpoint here's the preview:

• Planning an install takes longer 30-40 minutes of how; but you can steal most from here in that bigger thread:

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/vendetta-di2-users.8059/page-2​

• Upgrading the "firmware" of your bike is weird.
• Tuning a derailleur has never been easier if you have the software and a laptop (requires Windoze).
  • Set you A&B limit screws on the front and rear to the standard 0.5mm clearance
  • Follow the prompt and instructions to fine tune it; done in 3-5 minutes
• Stays in tune pretty much forever no housing compression to worry about; so when comparing costs I would add the cost of Jagwire Link Elite to the mechanical group-set prices you compare to the Di2 groupo.
• Weird to charge the bike; but a charge last like 3-5 weeks.
• Ultegra pricing is now acceptable for the rest of us and will likely get better. Larry and I found a really good source from France for fair pricing and completely customized kits with the correct parts
• Cable lengths are hard to track down if you do the part acquisition piece meal.
• Pretty much stuck with 11sp now; as they took away the ability to use an 11sp unit on a 10sp setup (previously you could do it in the firmware. (This was a stoopid change with thinly veiled reasons) what for SRAM wireless and Campagnolo electric to put reverse pressure on that bad choice.
• Remote alternative shifters are cool but not all that use full on a S30, V20 cockpit.
• The potential for better bullhorns is amazing but non of us has done that yet. (on my road map for next season 2017)
• Di2 Wireless data to the Garmin is the the boom. I'm good at tracking my gears but I still loose track; when grinding up a hill it's great to glance at the Garmin and know that for sure I have 2 gears in reserve. Analyzing Shifting patterns over 10-20 rides is really interesting to see what parts of the cassette you use and which ones you don't; that has great implications for setting up an optimal wide range cassette. Will you really miss that 16T? the data will tell you.

The short version is. If you already have the high end expensive bike and you love it (S30, V20). They if you want to improve your ride, your priorities in 2016 would be: Better Wheels. and by better Wheels I mean the hubs. We can debate rims all day; but if your hubs suck; you need to fix that first; dollar on dollar that will improve your ride experience the most. There are tons people that build wheels so there's no excuse to ride around on low end hubs and mid-highend ones are affordable. If my bike coasts away from yours; then I get to spend energy to go the same distance, so I ride father and have more fun. After that or if you love your wheels; then Di2 or SRAM Wireless (bike gods and wives willing) is going to make your most wanted list. So start saving now. Rick, Lief, my apologies to your wives don't' give them my email.

Maybe I should start buying frame and pre-building Di2 Setups. Probably could do 10 a winter

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I find the electronic shifting interesting and intriguing. My questions are how well does it work in the real world under heavy loads like climbing? The last thing I want when I'm into a hill and have a ways to go before cresting the top, is for the bike to mis-shift and cause me to walk the rest of the way. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying be negative. These are questions I have and will be looking forward to your 1000 miles review Bob. Also I will be more interested once Sram gets into the picture. I need the extream wide gear range in order to master the hills in my area, and that could could put even more load on the electronic shifting causing possible mis-shits.

Rick, Lief, my apologies to your wives don't' give them my email.

 

[ratz]

My questions are how well does it work in the real world under heavy loads like climbing?

So far so good; I would call it better :

• Since the simple button tap requires "less hand effort" I focus more on the climbing and don't think about the shifting. The shift is so much faster that it's a game changer on an incline it doesn't even feel the same.
• It's also easier to feather 1 gear at a time as needed; tape pedal pedal pedal tap pedal pedal pedal tap....
• Currently I have multi-shift is set for 3 steps. So I can press and hold both levers and down shift to little ring and downshift the rear 3 harder gears. I'm already addicted to that; never been one to shift both rings simultaneously but it just works.

These are questions I have and will be looking forward to your 1000 miles review

Much to test yet; I just reprogrammed what my buttons do for my next test. First round I had right hand setup to move the chain front and back to the right and left hand moves the chain to the left. That was cool. Next 200 miles I'm going with button simulating mechanical behavior.

I need the extream wide gear range in order to master the hills in my area, and that could could put even more load on the electronic shifting causing possible mis-shits.

That will be your barrier but you you are DIY guy and there are plenty of internet instructions for modifying the cage.

 

[Abbott Smith]

I find the electronic shifting interesting and intriguing. My questions are how well does it work in the real world under heavy loads like climbing? The last thing I want when I'm into a hill and have a ways to go before cresting the top, is for the bike to mis-shift and cause me to walk the rest of the way. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying be negative. These are questions I have and will be looking forward to your 1000 miles review Bob. Also I will be more interested once Sram gets into the picture. I need the extream wide gear range in order to master the hills in my area, and that could could put even more load on the electronic shifting causing possible mis-shits.

I've done a bit of poking around and saw a race analysis video of Tour stage a couple years back where the Yellow jersey leader got stuck in the big ring on a climb. Reading between the lines the analysts deduced that his Di shifter malfunctioned. Though the rider later claimed to have had a bad day (calling out your sponsor for a malfunction of their new derailleur as the cause for losing the Yellow Jersey would be very bad), I would imagine that there were some very pointed discussions behind the scenes. But it was ultimately very good for the non racing market because it means that Shimano had to fix the system so that doesn't happen again.

 

[Abbott Smith]

This thread has much of the cool we discussed especially when it comes to the new MTB stuff and it's implications.

The full review will be coming when I hit about 1000 road miles on it. I have things to play with different setups for things like button configuration and multi-shift.

But from a build / maintenance standpoint here's the preview:

• Planning an install takes longer 30-40 minutes of how; but you can steal most from here in that bigger thread:

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/vendetta-di2-users.8059/page-2​

• Upgrading the "firmware" of your bike is weird.
• Tuning a derailleur has never been easier if you have the software and a laptop (requires Windoze).
  • Set you A&B limit screws on the front and rear to the standard 0.5mm clearance
  • Follow the prompt and instructions to fine tune it; done in 3-5 minutes
• Stays in tune pretty much forever no housing compression to worry about; so when comparing costs I would add the cost of Jagwire Link Elite to the mechanical group-set prices you compare to the Di2 groupo.
• Weird to charge the bike; but a charge last like 3-5 weeks.
• Ultegra pricing is now acceptable for the rest of us and will likely get better. Larry and I found a really good source from France for fair pricing and completely customized kits with the correct parts
• Cable lengths are hard to track down if you do the part acquisition piece meal.
• Pretty much stuck with 11sp now; as they took away the ability to use an 11sp unit on a 10sp setup (previously you could do it in the firmware. (This was a stoopid change with thinly veiled reasons) what for SRAM wireless and Campagnolo electric to put reverse pressure on that bad choice.
• Remote alternative shifters are cool but not all that use full on a S30, V20 cockpit.
• The potential for better bullhorns is amazing but non of us has done that yet. (on my road map for next season 2017)
• Di2 Wireless data to the Garmin is the the boom. I'm good at tracking my gears but I still loose track; when grinding up a hill it's great to glance at the Garmin and know that for sure I have 2 gears in reserve. Analyzing Shifting patterns over 10-20 rides is really interesting to see what parts of the cassette you use and which ones you don't; that has great implications for setting up an optimal wide range cassette. Will you really miss that 16T? the data will tell you.

The short version is. If you already have the high end expensive bike and you love it (S30, V20). They if you want to improve your ride, your priorities in 2016 would be: Better Wheels. and by better Wheels I mean the hubs. We can debate rims all day; but if your hubs suck; you need to fix that first; dollar on dollar that will improve your ride experience the most. There are tons people that build wheels so there's no excuse to ride around on low end hubs and mid-highend ones are affordable. If my bike coasts away from yours; then I get to spend energy to go the same distance, so I ride father and have more fun. After that or if you love your wheels; then Di2 or SRAM Wireless (bike gods and wives willing) is going to make your most wanted list. So start saving now. Rick, Lief, my apologies to your wives don't' give them my email.

Maybe I should start buying frame and pre-building Di2 Setups. Probably could do 10 a winter

Thanks Ratz!

Great information. I plan to replace the wheels first since this is the one thing my friend wants back and my rear wheel (non drive) is low quality. To that end what hubs would you recommend? I am currently set up as a nine speed 11-32, but ultimately want to run a 11-42t.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

I've done a bit of poking around and saw a race analysis video of Tour stage a couple years back where the Yellow jersey leader got stuck in the big ring on a climb. Reading between the lines the analysts deduced that his Di shifter malfunctioned. Though the rider later claimed to have had a bad day (calling out your sponsor for a malfunction of their new derailleur as the cause for losing the Yellow Jersey would be very bad), I would imagine that there were some very pointed discussions behind the scenes. But it was ultimately very good for the non racing market because it means that Shimano had to fix the system so that doesn't happen again.

The sort of thing that I would worry about, getting trapped in a canyon, with no cell service.

 

[Abbott Smith]

The sort of thing that I would worry about, getting trapped in a canyon, with no cell service.

With each year the reliability will increase. Worse case scenario you pull the chain and go fixed gear in a low speed to get out of the canyon. Might have to shorten the chain but that's why I carry a park mini chain tool when I ride.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

With each year the reliability will increase. Worse case scenario you pull the chain and go fixed gear in a low speed to get out of the canyon. Might have to shorten the chain but that's why I carry a park mini chain tool when I ride.

Yes, I agree. Not at the top of my list (as Bob pointed out, wheels, power meter, better Garmin, and the list goes on and on), and maybe by the time I get there, Sram may have there stuff on market.

 

[ratz]

To that end what hubs would you recommend?

Depends on where you source them; the big players in the hubs are:

• American Classic
• Chris King
• Dash Cycles
• DT Swiss
• Extralite
• Industry Nine
• Hope
• Phil Wood
• PowerTap
• Project 321
• Shimano
• White Industries
• Zipp

There was a time that there was Phil Wood and then everyone else. That gap has narrowed over the years; with good stuff from everyone now.

Different hubs are good for different things. So you need to do your research and then talk to your wheel builder if you are having wheels built. Or know what comes with the wheels you are buying. Example Zipp, Shimano, Industry Nine, American Classic, and DT Swiss, all make wheels and they use their own hubs. Bontrager source their hubs from Extraline, DT Swiss, and Shimano. Flocycling uses there own in-house private hubs only (last I read).

So goals matter.

Example 1: The current wheels I'm running are Bontrager TLR family because it's tubeless, that was the leading goal and it limits the choices. We have two types of those wheels. Our Aero ones use the Extraline 3 pawl hub and the other is the Windy day wheel which DT Swiss based. It's a trade off the DT Swiss wheels are fast and deadly quiet, but it's not an aero wheel; the Extraline 3pawls are loud and light but lessor hubs than the DT Swiss, but..... the wheels are more aero and preform well making it a fair trade off to get Aero, Tubeless and Aluminum all in one; I can always have the Aero wheels rebuilt with better hubs if necessary but that doesn't seem to be needed so far on the priority list. The gap between very good, and great is small on the performance side and extreme on the cost side.

Example 2: Meanwhile On our one Quest I had new 451mm wheels built. They are Velocity A23 rims, strong, light and affordable. I paired those with DTSwiss 350. The 350 and the 250 from DTS are the same internals with the 250 being the light near top of the line in the MTB family. The 350 is a lot cheaper ($55 versus $165) and only a little heavier and other wise it's the same hub. So on the Quest which is already a heavy bike grams don't matter but the innards do. So I had the wheels built on the 350; saved money and wound up with a much lighter wheel that spins and spins and spins versus stock. Going up to the 250 just won't have helped. Four wheels total 1 drive wheel (rear) and 3 fronts = average $250 ea wheel built and delivered; and I was able to rebuild a Quest version 1 and our trailler into a lean mean MUP marauding machine.

If you know the "brandname" wheels you want then Ebay is your friend. If you want to have them built; then get opinions on the various wheels houses. If you want turn key web shopping it's hard to beat FLO, or Industry Nine. If you want tubeless Bontrager is still imo ahead off everyone on easy of use because the had such a big lead on the MTB side and parlayed that into road tubeless. Lastly A lot of people like their cheap China wheels; I haven't done that route, my crash experience has me gun shy of no-name anything on the front half of a bike; doesn't make them bad it's just my bias that I live with.

This is an interesting hub comparison article it only covers a few but it's education about the things you need to consider https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews-and-testing/hub-review/
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/hub-selection.html

 

[ratz]

Yes, I agree. Not at the top of my list (as Bob pointed out, wheels, power meter, better Garmin, and the list goes on and on), and maybe by the time I get there, Sram may have there stuff on market.

What no Kickr.... oh wait, you and that dam weather of yours.

 

[Abbott Smith]

Depends on where you source them; the big players in the hubs are:

• American Classic
• Chris King
• Dash Cycles
• DT Swiss
• Extralite
• Industry Nine
• Hope
• Phil Wood
• PowerTap
• Project 321
• Shimano
• White Industries
• Zipp

There was a time that there was Phil Wood and then everyone else. That gap has narrowed over the years; with good stuff from everyone now.

Different hubs are good for different things. So you need to do your research and then talk to your wheel builder if you are having wheels built. Or know what comes with the wheels you are buying. Example Zipp, Shimano, Industry Nine, American Classic, and DT Swiss, all make wheels and they use their own hubs. Bontrager source their hubs from Extraline, DT Swiss, and Shimano. Flocycling uses there own in-house private hubs only (last I read).

So goals matter.

Example 1: The current wheels I'm running are Bontrager TLR family because it's tubeless, that was the leading goal and it limits the choices. We have two types of those wheels. Our Aero ones use the Extraline 3 pawl hub and the other is the Windy day wheel which DT Swiss based. It's a trade off the DT Swiss wheels are fast and deadly quiet, but it's not an aero wheel; the Extraline 3pawls are loud and light but lessor hubs than the DT Swiss, but..... the wheels are more aero and preform well making it a fair trade off to get Aero, Tubeless and Aluminum all in one; I can always have the Aero wheels rebuilt with better hubs if necessary but that doesn't seem to be needed so far on the priority list. The gap between very good, and great is small on the performance side and extreme on the cost side.

Example 2: Meanwhile On our one Quest I had new 451mm wheels built. They are Velocity A23 rims, strong, light and affordable. I paired those with DTSwiss 350. The 350 and the 250 from DTS are the same internals with the 250 being the light near top of the line in the MTB family. The 350 is a lot cheaper ($55 versus $165) and only a little heavier and other wise it's the same hub. So on the Quest which is already a heavy bike grams don't matter but the innards do. So I had the wheels built on the 350; saved money and wound up with a much lighter wheel that spins and spins and spins versus stock. Going up to the 250 just won't have helped. Four wheels total 1 drive wheel (rear) and 3 fronts = average $250 ea wheel built and delivered; and I was able to rebuild a Quest version 1 and our trailler into a lean mean MUP marauding machine.

If you know the "brandname" wheels you want then Ebay is your friend. If you want to have them built; then get opinions on the various wheels houses. If you want turn key web shopping it's hard to beat FLO, or Industry Nine. If you want tubeless Bontrager is still imo ahead off everyone on easy of use because the had such a big lead on the MTB side and parlayed that into road tubeless. Lastly A lot of people like their cheap China wheels; I haven't done that route, my crash experience has me gun shy of no-name anything on the front half of a bike; doesn't make them bad it's just my bias that I live with.

This is an interesting hub comparison article it only covers a few but it's education about the things you need to consider https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews-and-testing/hub-review/
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/hub-selection.html

My goal is a pair of good quality traditional wheels. Not worried about incremental weight savings of great equipment vs good. I'm a former collegiate defensive lineman. Worrying about grams is silly for me.

My V20 is my bike. I will use it to do everything from commuting to recreational charity rides. I have no interest in aero per se. I want solid and dependable.

 

[Cruzbike Chris]

I hear a lot of folks around here talking Reynolds and you didn't even mention the, Bob. What's up with that?

Hey Bob, I also would like to go tubeless, does anyone know if my wonderful Cruzbike wheels can be converted with Stans no tubes and the right tires next time I get new ones?

 

[Abbott Smith]

We're off to see the Wizard, the Wonderful Wizard of Ratz! Because, because, because, because, because... Because of the wonderful answers he hatz!!!!!!

 

[ratz]

I hear a lot of folks around here talking Reynolds and you didn't even mention the, Bob. What's up with that?

Last time I was looking at wheels; Reynolds was using DT Swiss hubs for most of there wheels; they had some serious problems that past years high prices and middling to average reviews on their road wheels. Every time I find a used set the owner or the shop way over valued the wheels. I know they are now going through a rebirth; but I'm kind of doing the wait and see with them. Their Time Trial 650 size wheels are still really popular but is that because everyone sees everyone else riding them or because they are better? With a lot of TT suddenly moving to 700c that's muddying the water.

I also would like to go tubeless, does anyone know if my wonderful Cruzbike wheels can be converted with Stans no tubes and the right tires next time I get new ones?

Robert will have to say if the Cruzbike wheels are tubeless ready RIMs I don't think they are but I haven't seen a pair nor asked the question before.

But for Tubeless and Stans you can convert most wheels, but the performance and safety is better if the rim has a tire bead bed that was intended to be tubeless so the tire locks in better. For non-tubeless rims you loose three advantages of tubeless.

1. If you flat you run the risk of the tire blowing the rim completely, a tubeless rim will hold the tire on.
2. You go flat faster and violently and steering is compromised because you'll gap the tire and the rim. So it's much like blowing out a tube; poof instantly flat. A True tubeless setup deflates slowly and you can ride the tire so a controlled stop which prevents crashes when you blow a front wheel.
3. Once flatted the tire might not re-seat and you have to then put a tube in to put it up. On a tubeless rim; you let the tire sit for a minute for the sealant to clog up; and then just pump the tire back up.

So you get 3 types of tubeless setups on bike

1. Ghetto Tubeless - using old inner tube as your liner and a non tubeless rim, sealant and a tubless tire.
2. Half-Tubeless - everything is tubeless but not the rim
3. Proper Tubeless - everything is tubeless rim to tire.

Even if you don't plan to go tubeless tomorrow IF you have new wheels built it s good idea to pick rims that are tubeless ready; then you can switch latter on.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

• If you flat you run the risk of the tire blowing the rim completely, a tubeless rim will hold the tire on.

• You go flat faster and violently and steering is compromised because you'll gap the tire and the rim. So it's much like blowing out a tube; poof instantly flat. A True tubeless setup deflates slowly and you can ride the tire so a controlled stop which prevents crashes when you blow a front wheel.

• Once flatted the tire might not re-seat and you have to then put a tube in to put it up. On a tubeless rim; you let the tire sit for a minute for the sealant to clog up; and then just pump the tire back up.

I can confirm this because it happen to me, and that was with a lower pressure tire - 60psi. I think ultra low pressure 2" MTB can get away with it. But to take a chance with high pressure road tires is insane. I should note: I did the opposite, tubeless rim to non-tubeless tire.

Even if you don't plan to go tubeless tomorrow IF you have new wheels built it s good idea to pick rims that are tubeless ready; then you can switch latter on.

I think this may be the way to go, and probably easier to find these day.