Steering damper/stabilizer

[Mwhwsmith]

I'm making progress learning to ride my V20 although am finding the heavy front end is taking some getting used to - both when I'm riding and also when I'm moving the bike around.

I see a number of people recommend fitting a steering damper and I have seen various examples (some 'sold' some more 'improvised').

I was wondering what 'sold' damper would be best (ie. easy to find and effective at giving more front end stability)?

Any recommendations gratefully received.

Many thanks
Mike

 

[ratz]

It's hard not to sound like

It's hard not to sound like "Get off my lawn guy" on this topic, So I'll try not to and probably will fail miserably.

Don't do it; friends don't let friends install stabilizers

Seriously consider long and hard before you make that choice. There is no reason to install a steering dampener on a V20; If you feel the need for it; then more time in the parking lot practicing will solve that issue in almost every case, particularly slow low speed figure 8. If you take 100 accomplished riders of the V-series bikes and queried them you will find that < 1-2% of them think a steering dampener is a good idea. While it can be argued that it makes it easier to learn it also can be argued much more convincingly that it will delay your acclimation to the platform.

So I don't want to disrespectful to those that installed one, but it's far from a "recommended" or "necessary" addition. It's an expensive bike. Never doubt that the V20 is a race bike in the class of fastest there are with that comes a commitment to a whole new riding orientation. Until you log 500-1000 miles you won't be acclimated. The dampener might help for the first 400-500 miles after that it will hinder your development without a doubt. If you bought the bike to ride < 300 miles a year; you bought the wrong one; but I doubt that the case with most buyers.

Ok I'll get off my own lawn now. Apologies to those that really really think they are needed and beneficial.

We've already taught our first 2 riders of this season; no one has complained about the front end weight so far; but I make them spend far more time in the parking lot than they expected before I put them on the trails. I spend a good part of the first 10 minutes yelling at people to stop rushing ahead on the skills.

Lastly 5 minutes ride 3 time a day for a week make an amazing increase in acclimation. I'm sure some learning expert could explain why. Frequency and gaps seems to let the brain understand whats going on.

My favorite exercise for a learning is this: Climb on the bike and coast down a 1-2% hill from a dead stop, set your ams solid but comfortable (not locked in); place your feet on the pedals. While coasting try and steer with only input from you feet. No leaning no arms. You will quickly train your brain to believe that you feet have very little steering input on their own; and that most of the perceived pedal steer is your brain and arms over compensating for what you Perceive your feet are doing. If you haven't done this exercise I strongly suggest you do it at least 3 times. The look on most first timer when they do this is entertaining as they discover that what did know what they thought they knew.

-Lawn guy out

 

[billyk]

What Ratz said

I suspect I'm one of the posters recommending steering dampers here a couple of years ago, and even built one for my Quest2. It came off shortly after.

There are two issues:
- Riding, which is exactly like Ratz said: It takes practice but you will get the feel and then have no use for a steering damper. In my case maybe 2-3 months of daily commuting before I was thoroughly comfortable in traffic. But having got there, it now seems perfectly natural to ride for miles on end no-hands. Yes, there's a learning curve that surprised me - with decades on recumbents I thought this would be just another bike and it is not - but there's a big reward when you get there. These are fun bikes with unparalleled ability to put on power.
- Walking the bike, which is unwieldy when you don't expect it (casually walking around the front end with a hand on the bars; I dropped my Q once like that as I switched hands). I also find it more awkward to pick up and carry than an upright bike because the swingy end is also the heavy end. Also, the place you'd normally hold it when carrying/picking up to mount on a stand/etc (the steering column) gives no leverage to control the weight.

So I'd consider some kind of steering lockout/damper to pick it up or roll it around, but there's no need of this for actual riding.

BK

 

[LarryOz]

what ratz and billyk said...

I put one on my V just so I could manage the front end without rotor cuff, or RD damage!

 

[LMT]

Ratz has it right, stick with

Ratz has it right, stick with it and take on board his advice about doing slow figure of eight turns in a quiet car park.

I did before I done any real road riding and it paid dividends. And post doing this, miles on the bike made my body learn how to ride a FWD. Now I'm seeing very little arm input and also pulling on the return pedal stroke as well as pushing.

The V20 is a fantastic machine, went out for a another training ride last night and scything through the air doing 30-32 kph whilst my heart does not go above 120BPM is great, it feels effortless compared to other bents that I've had, which were an Optima Low Racer and a Metabike Metaphysic.

Anyway I digress, do some slow figures of eight in a quiet car park, keep practicing and it will come.

 

[Robert Holler]

Nothing beats seat time and

Nothing beats seat time and miles - as has been noted.

 

[Mwhwsmith]

Well that's very clear


I think the advice is pretty clear; thank you.

My challenge is that I need to be making faster progress than I am. I am due to ride to Paris (circa 180miles) in 8-9 weeks and I'm finding that I tired very quickly on the bike. I'm guessing this is because I'm not relaxed on the bike yet. I think the biggest issue is the front end instability - I find a momentary lapse of concentration and I start veering all over the place - and was hoping a damper might accelerate the learning process.

Given I'm teaching myself, can anyone share a checklist if activities to learn 'the right way'. One question I have for figure 8a: what sort of radius should I be aiming for?

Any help welcomed ... Please ...

Mike

 

[LMT]

Not saying that you are, but

Not saying that you are, but don't think to much about what you are doing, just relax and given time your brain will learn what to do.

Another thing to look at is, is the bike fitted properly? Your backside should be firmly seated so the power comes from the hip with a slight bend in the knee when the crank is fully extended, (and for me) the neck rest should be nicely fitted against the base of your head. Do you find yourself shuffling around the bike a lot feeling uncomfortable? If so then it could be that you need to look at the fit of the bike as this WILL, (ime with previous bents) impact on how the bike handles

When I done figures of eight I aimed to turn within two car parking spaces which were back to back.

There is a cribsheet of what to learn and how long it should take to learn it. The owners booklets for the Quest has it. Serves as a benchmark of what is useful to learn.

 

[1happyreader]

Turn, turn turn

gosh Mike ,,, How do you learn best ???

I put a marker on the end of a slots line and just worked it tighter and tighter.
| | | | |
*
When you go slower and tighter, don't forget to try Ratz's snowmobile lean (drop outside shoulder ).
It made a local pedestrian bridges possible for me.

Do try and lean ALL the way back and smile so you can feel the bike.

The only thing I regret is not doing more low speed drills.

We all assume you already went to the "Links to download specs and brochures" when first got your cruzbike.

The " Never Fail Riding instructions" are now too basic for you .

I assume you are working thru Pages 13-15 of "The Cruzbike Owners manual - Read it !"

http://cruzbike.com/CruzbikeOwnersManualRevP.pdf

#9 and #20 seem to apply to your question.

godspeed.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Ditto Ratz and Robert. Seat

Ditto Ratz and Robert. Seat time, parking lot time, and just plain time. But it should not take much time at all to master the MBB. The amount of time it takes to ride with arm-leg harmony will probably vary for everyone. You will progress with each ride to eventually being a "Vendetta Master", and you will thank your lucky stars you did not give up and wreak the rewards!

 

[tiltmaniac]

I've now got ~120 miles on my

I've now got ~120 miles on my Silvio counting about 4-6 "rides", and I have enough of a hang of it to be able to tool around the local sidewalks.
The front-end is annoying when transporting or moving or 'standing' the bike, however. To the extent that it has slammed my derailleur and I had to readjust things.

So, while riding I don't notice any instability and definitely don't need a stabilizer then.
While parked... yes please!

 

[ratz]

8-9 weeks will be plenty of

8-9 weeks will be plenty of time the learning curve is exponential. Sessions with 1-2 hours break between work great; quantity of sessions is more important the session duration. The brain needs lots of input to digest and make rapid progress. A 20 minute session is as good as a 2 hour session. 3 x 20 minute sessions is better than 1 x 2 hour.

Here's the script we use when people come to ride the Quests and see if it's for them. We've refined this over a bunch of people last summer; we are at 20 riders as of August; Some family, some friends, and a good number of former strangers.

If doing this on a Silvio or a Vendetta either sit up for all of these steps or put something behind you back to raise the angle to at least 40 degrees. It's easier to train your hands and feet if you aren't also training your balance. We keep all the quests set at 43 degrees and people learn pretty easy; especially bent riders. The laying back will come easier as a secondary skill. For example going from Silvio 27 degree to Vendetta 20 degrees took me only two full rides; but it was darn shaking for me at first; the lower you go the more balance you have to adjust to and the more core strenght you need; so just take that out of the equation; riding sitting up is a great skill that you will want for intersection and going up step hills, so use it for your learning.

So......

1) Find a parking lot with about a 1-2% pitch. Go to the high end.

2) Do 5 coast down with your feet up in the air spread eagle. Yeah it sounds stupid; but get them as high as you can. This will help you learn the glide and slide mounting trick. Do at least 5, not 1, not 2, at least 5.

3) Do 2 coast downs with you feet just resting on the pedals Do not pedal; your ego will want to, don't do it.

4) Do 3 coast down with you feet just resting on the pedals and steer just a touch using only your foot pressure (this is harder than it sounds; but you need to learn what it feels like) Again resist the urge to pedal the best students wait. You are trying to teach the brain the subtle things. The idea here is to teach the brain that it's really hard to create steering input with your feet.

5) Start doing runs with pedaling 5 or 6 minimum. Straight lines; down and back up the incline. Avoid turning; stop the bike; turn it 180 and go the other direction.

6) Start doing shallow turns; when you turn "DROP" your outside shoulder; it should feel like a reverse shrug; just relax you shoulder muscle so the shoulder drops. This is the same thing you do on racing motorcycles and snowmobiles you have to lean OUT ever so slightly on the turn; this is the opposite of what you do on a road bike. This is the #1 thing DF riders do wrong; they want to lean in to the turn; and coast; at which point they start to fall into the ground. Took watching several struggle to figure that out. This was a hard learned lesson that Bill paid for with his ankle injury. Those that came later owe him one for that.

7) After you can do the shoulder drop; do some pedaling figure-8's. Start big and work smaller; go Both directions; one side will be way easier that the other; that is you dominate side. Make note if it's easier to go left or right. Pedal through the turns if you feel tipping. This is the first bike you've had that you can pedal through any turn. You may have to slam a foot down on your weak direction the first few times.

8 ) Now consider your #7 results. If you turn left and it feels like you will fall into the ground then your right foot is dominate; if you feel like when you turn right you will fall into the ground then you left foot is dominate. If you feel like you are going to fall doing both you are a freak and need to continue practicing #7. Using your dominate foot Practice your up hill starts using this technique

http://cruzbike.com/looking-riding-tips-toe-clips-or-snap-shoes-general-steering-and-uphilldownhill-riding#comment-27416

After you can do the hill starts you are ready for riding out of the parking lot. You first rides should be slow speed stuff with maneuvering on quiet roads. Going fast and straight is EASY; but to do that you need your low speed skills. If you don't put time into the low speed practice you will have far too many miles of unnecessary periodic OMG moments. Practice in the bank will pay dividends on the road.

 

[Robert Holler]

I do basically the same

I do basically the same method as above just simplified a bit, but agree with this: repeat the steps 5 times or so each. Many people try to do a coasting one time and then assume they are ready for the dead start with the bike. Repetitions are key.

That said, I have had people simply hop on and ride off without really any input (my youngest daughter did this)

Much depends on the persons state of mind and how hard they believe it is. My experience has been that when people believe it is impossible it nearly always is. This is true not just for test riders of a Cruzbike but of a P38, high racer, Bike E or anything else.

A Cruzbike may not be the "easiest" recumbent to ride but it is definitely not the hardest (fact)

;-)

Robert

 

[DavidCH]

Keep with it

You Like a challenge for sure.

I would recommend the ventisit seat pad. Get the comfort version. It will keep your back cool and take some of the shock away from any bumps (sleeping policemen). I have race tyres on my Vendetta and those real hard sleeping policemen aren't nice. I usually brace myself by lifting my arse if I am going too fast.

I noticed that some Vendetta riders are using touring tyres. I think you can go up to 28mm, so there would be more comfort in these.

I love the speed so i wont be switching out the Conti GP 5000 road tyres out yet.

Two weeks ago I put a 11/32t cassette on. You wont look back. I strongly suggest you have a mirror on your handlebars. If you are doing London to Paris you probably want one on each side. The french drive insanely, the Vendetta is an insanely fast bike.

You will meet new friends as your old friends wont be able to keep up.

 

[Itripper]

2 mirrors

I put a 25mm on front due to fork clearance and a 28 mm tire on rear. Made a HUGE difference in comfort, and is noticeably faster on rough chipseal roads. Another plus of the bigger size tires is I can actually see on really rough roads, with 23's the vibrations were so severe I actually could not see and barely control the bike if I was going fast (over 20 mph) when I hit the rough section. Conti 4000s roll pretty good. I use two Zefal spy mirrors mounted on my brifters, the right one I angle to see right behind me and the left one I angle to see the lanes of traffic to the left coming up, this configuration makes sure I have no blind spots (for me) for approaching cars. I have the Ventisit comfort pad, it makes you sit about an inch higher than stock pad, but it is AWESOME. Cushy and airy, can sit on it all day.

I do like the O ring thing someone made as a way to stop the front end from swinging around violently when parking or moving the bike around. No matter how careful I am, things come up that end up making the front end smash a wall or my car when I am walking bike, such as my cat trying to run out the front door while I am maneuvering the bike through, grabbing for the cat and front ends swings loose.

 

[Greenspeed]

I am pro on installing dampener.

I improvised a dampener out of a rubber cord.
One year on, I still have it on the bike. Don't plan on taking it off, even though my bike handling now doesn't warrant using one.
IMHO, it improves the bike handling. Doesn't compromised aerodynamics, handling etc. Can be a make or break for early learners.
Would have gone off the platform if wasn't for the dampener. Easier to just keep riding my M5 CHR. Glad I didn't.

Plus it stabilizes the front end when the bike is static. Prevent FD banging onto the seat.

Anyone new to MBB FWD, I say go for it. It isn't a "sacrilege" if you choose to install one.
Just remove it if you don't like it.

 

[Happyrider]

Any photos of your rubber

Any photos of your rubber cord damper would be appreciated. I think one could be most useful for walking/parking a CB.

 

[Greenspeed]

http://i90.photobucket.c[/b]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/vuichong/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC_0111_zps46c52e7a.jpg

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3791/14131195468_bbdf1408fa_c.jpg

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/14317866505_66e6518ee0_c.jpg

 

[LarryOz]

Pics of Larry and Gary's V's with Gary's Stabalizer. Testing new web-site photo insertion.
6.7, and 2 Meg file failed to upload. I was hoping larger files would work. Looks like 1 Meg size still works.

 

[Apollo]

LarryOz, I noticed you raced with two disks at Sebring, did you find the stabilizer helped with handling of the front disk?