Testing Dérailleur Pulleys

[ratz]

Testing two new pulley's.

Hmmm which one goes on my bike and which one goes on pluckyblond's

If I keep #2 for myself I guess that would be admitting I need the most help watt/kg

 

[DavidCH]

You can get them in different colors too. Got yellow ones but they are on the wrong side of the big pond.

Sebring should be a breeze with those on

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

Testing two new pulley's.

Hmmm which one goes on my bike and which one goes on pluckyblond's

If I keep #2 for myself I guess that would be admitting I need the most help watt/kg

Where can we get them?

 

[ratz]

Where can we get them?

That didn't take long...


First one is: Enduro Zer0: http://enduroforkseals.com/id408.html
Second one is BBinfinite: http://www.bbinfinite.com/products/sram-10-11spd-road-ceramitech-pulley-set-set-of-2

I didn't even bother to video the stock SRAM ones since the do not spin even one complete revolution. It's hard to tell in the video but the Eduro gets about 8-10 revolutions. The Zero is the baby brother of the Enduro X-15; the Zero cheaper just not as durable but comparable performance. According to my contact the big brother XD-15 pulley's are like the bottom bracket that shares its name. Bullet proof performance for mega mileage and rough treatment. But for testing the Zer0 is a $86 cheaper. The price scale low to high is: Zero, BBinfinite, XD-15. Given the video evidence the BBinfinite would appear superior but given the track record of the XD-15 Bottom Bracket I felt compelled to bring in both brands for testing.

While the video is shocking in the difference; I do actually expect similar performance under load; the Zero were installed Monday and ridden for the first time Tuesday. Once loaded with chain resistance the difference over the stock part was obvious. I had two identical bikes side by side and could tell right away moving between the two rigs and back spining the pedal. I need to do a blind test with Pluckyblond to see if she can which one is which she usually can never tell the difference but, if she can we get a quick answer. After that I'll video some spins to see if it is visually obvious. Then we will install the BBinfinite ones on the bike that still has stock parts and repeat some spin tests. Videos if definitive will follow.

Now as to the why? These things have reported performance gains of 6-15 seconds per hour depending on which source you read. That means pretty much nothing for most of us......... unless you have a 4 person RAAM team riding cross country non-stop for +5 days; that is about 13-30 minutes of free time. Then again there is the psyche out your riding buddies factor if you show them before the ride.

The footnote from the first test ride on the trainer was: Either I had a superior rested day; or I fueled perfectly; or I suddenly made a big performance adaptation because that was the easiest 210 watt 6 x 8 minute intervals I have done all year. Sadly there were about 8 variables in play that day and the pulleys seemed the least likely to have caused that gain but it would be nice to dream it was that easy.

 

[RojoRacing]

sounds terribly dry

 

[ratz]

sounds terribly dry

Yeah I'm pretty sure they are sealed greaseless; assuming they stay sealed and clean that should last for some good mileage; but you certainly would not want to be pressure washing the bike. I suspect they are rebranded versions of the TriPeak stuff coming direct out of Asia. A bit like LED lights if you know where the products coming from you can save some cash. I like to start at the supposed "good source" and work backwards.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/tripeak-ceramic-delrin-derailleur-pulleys/ $80

Usually on Ebay for $75 for a pair.

 

[RojoRacing]

Yes I'm familiar with the dry ceramic stuff but as a mtber they've never been an option for me. Steel bearings spin like that when they are run dry but they don't like to run dry even in clean conditions. I'd imagine out her in dry and dusty CA those bearing wouldn't be a good idea for long service intervals.

 

[ratz]

Ok did the installs and videos last night. Busy work day so it might be 24 hours before I can down load those and edit them down.

Initial Result where positive and I would call them conclusive enough for my needs.

Tests performed:

1) Crank spin without chains to show that both spin within a ¼ turn of each other. Sufficient for my "hand flick" scientific input force
2) Verify both free hubs back spin about the same. One was tight loosened and re-torqued to get them to similar spin.
3) Install Chains and do back spin test; Enduro vs Red22 Ceramic. Winner Enduro by A LOT 2.5 to 3.0 rotations versus 1 rotation.
4) Install BBInfiinite Pulley's, repeat back spin test, Enduro vs BBInfinite Winner Enduro. by .5 rotation
5) Swap chains between bikes repeat test; Enduro vs BBInfinite Winner Enduro by .5 rotation
6) Swap Derailleurs between bikes to see if free the free hub drag is dictating the winner. Endur0 vs BBInfinite Winner BBInfinite by .75 rotation.

It appears the BBinfinite without grease is good for about (0.25/2)=0.125 of a rotation gain (did I do that math correct?). So As I expected the Enduro Zero is about Equal to the BBInfinite once loaded with Chain Tension; and I expect the XD-15 would be the same; but with it's added Mega Mileage bomb proofing. We'll now pile on the mileage on these on the trainers all winter and then see what kind of shape they are in when March Gets here.

The reference check was that PluckyBlond noticed right away that one was smoother than the stock stuff and usually when I think something is a smidgen better she thinks they are the same.

Video to follow; don't watch them if you need to protect your wallet.

 

[ratz]

And here's your video Demo

 

[DavidCH]

Interesting video Bob, you must have spent quite sometime doing that, it's appreciated. It doesn't look like so much difference but when you think about the pedalling and the action on of the knee with acceleration, it makes an appreciable difference by the end of a ride in how you feel. The quicker you are to accelerate, the faster time that you will achieve. You still will want to work out with the same wattage so the acceleration will be quicker. Since changing over to the Enduro XD-15 BB my knees aren't hurting, even after 70km and yes I am faster too.

 

[ratz]

It doesn't look like so much difference

That was the main reason for doing the video. There's a big difference between the Stock SRAM Red22 Ceramic and both the Enduro and BBInfinite. But I always felt the BBInfinite spinning free with little to no grease has always been a bit deceiving; because once you pressure the pulley axle with the spring in the derailleur pulling on the chain; the lack of grease becomes a lot less advantageous. I didn't really just want to state that as a guess, it was simpler to test it.

In your hand you'd expect the Enduro so be far less efficient than the BBInfinite but on the bike; they are close enough to call it a wash; both are much better than the best of the best stock stuff; the video doesn't capture that as much as I'd like; the stock stuff decelerates shockingly quick. Now it will take some miles to see how they stack up from a wear standpoint because the cut of the pulley's will matter as much to that as the bearings themselves when it comes to wear and the quality of the shifting.

Also remember this is tech for races against the clock, or for Ultra Distances. Saving 6-10 seconds per hour on a social century is not really worth $80-$125.

I'm sure we could be far more scientific about this; but that's far outside the budget and time constraints.

 

[1happyreader]

I'm sure we could be far more scientific about this; but that's far outside the budget and time constraints.

That's Friction facts back yard.

 

[RojoRacing]

So what your saying is for $100 I can by 1/2mile in a 24hr event :lol

 

[ratz]

So what your saying is for $100 I can by 1/2mile in a 24hr event :lol

Basically yep..

In all seriousness though; someone like larry going for the 1 hour record; or the RAAM team I do think there's some benefit. And for someone with a low end APEX derailleur their might also be some benefit; gotta remember that was the best that SRAM currently ships that we just tested against. Most derrailleur pulleys are going to be crap after 4000 miles. Just how many people change them out? not many. But if you do $80 will get you a much better repair; that's really easy for most people to do; lot easier than actually replacing the derailleur for many of our non wrench people.

Now for Rojo super powers and the way you donut crush the bike; really I'd put on the XD-15 version; and then know that you'd probably be good for 10,000miles so you can focus on all the other cool innovations.

This was totally a test for RAAM, and there will be a couple more similar test coming down the chute. I just got XD-15 bearings for the rear wheel. I accidentally crushed my bearing in my wheel and they had to be replaced so we brought in the XD-15 replacements. Since I have two identical wheels we'll get a nice chance to test the stock DTSwiss 240 bearings against the XD's that will be next week.

Of course the whole giant derrailleur pulley thing is going to change everything yet against.

 

[RojoRacing]

Here you go Rojo, 790g. Btw Cruzike has a front disc wheel (ie: cruzbike rear). Why don't you borrow theirs?

I did last year for the race but now I'm on disc brakes so I need a disc with rotors. Besides from my understanding a strait parallel walled track wheel like what Maria uses on the rear is great for indoors where there's no cross winds. Out in the real world a standard disc wheel with dished out sides works better as soon as the wind is hitting you at any sort of angle. Also the honeycomb construction wheels like Maria's are said to be on the heavy side of disc options so I was hoping to save an oz or two there as well. Another thing is Maria's track wheel has a narrow tire channel so in order to take advantage of the full aero effects you need to run a 21mm tire which only works better on very smooth roads. What I need at this point is a very lightweight and probably equally expense front wheel that uses disc brakes and then I'll make covers for it. For now I'm happy enough with my $400 wheel and $200 covers.

 

[RojoRacing]

Have you purchased the friction facts test data sheets? Sounds like if you all about optimizing everything that may be a decent cheat sheet.

 

[ratz]

Have you purchased the friction facts test data sheets? Sounds like if you all about optimizing everything that may be a decent cheat sheet.

There's the stuff they do for individual components then there is the practical side of when you start combining stuff how does it work; how does it shift etc; and then the important test of durability. AKA can I power wash this part.

So yes but the Stuff I purchase from them in-terms of info though I can't really share with you guys that's not fair to them since they since they make money from them; but I can home-brew the more interesting stuff and share.....That and they didn't test BBInfinite/Tripeak yet. You probably wont' see me quote them directly unless I slip up.

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

There was a guy at N24HC who lost credit for the whole last loop of 7.6 miles by arriving at the finish line only a few seconds late. Assuming he rode 22 hours out of 24, he would have arrived at the finish line with about 2 full minutes to spare if he used better pulleys with a 6 second per hour advantage over the pulleys he used. Over 22 hours, the pulleys would save 2 minutes 12 seconds relative to normal pulleys.

 

[RojoRacing]

There's the stuff they do for individual components then there is the practical side of when you start combining stuff how does it work; how does it shift etc; and then the important test of durability. AKA can I power wash this part.

So yes but the Stuff I purchase from them in-terms of info though I can't really share with you guys that's not fair to them since they since they make money from them; but I can home-brew the more interesting stuff and share.....That and they didn't test BBInfinite/Tripeak yet. You probably wont' see me quote them directly unless I slip up.

Yes I agree that spreading the info for free isn't fair so how's about I purchase the info second hand from you. I figure since you've already read in at least a few times it's thoroughly used and can be purchased at a discount so how's about a dollar? :lol just figured it would be up your alley if you hadn't already see them.

 

[RojoRacing]

There was a guy at N24HC who lost credit for the whole last loop of 7.6 miles by arriving at the finish line only a few seconds late. Assuming he rode 22 hours out of 24, he would have arrived at the finish line with about 2 full minutes to spare if he used better pulleys with a 6 second per hour advantage over the pulleys he used. Over 22 hours, the pulleys would save 2 minutes 12 seconds relative to normal pulleys.

That's a good point because my race finishes on 4 mile loops so if timed right those pulleys could mean the difference of 4 miles and not just 1/2 mile