The Champions
- Thread starter trplay
- Start date
It is what I observed contrary to "It's well known the heavier riders and total watts is king on Zwift" Here is some real data to support.
http://www.olympum.com/sports/impact-of-weight-on-zwift/
http://www.olympum.com/sports/impact-of-weight-on-zwift/
trplay
Zen MBB Master
I'm confused, here is the links summary:
Summary
- At a set w/kg, all other things being equal, the heavier rider is always at an advantage (i.e. the lighter riders don’t have it easier). This is specially true as the road goes up, but also applies to descents and event flats.
All things are not equal, that conclusion in the attachment is silly and conflicts with the data in the report and especially his conclusion in bullet 3. The tests show inconsistencies with that cannot be explained. Same power and weight......190 cm rider same time as 170 cm but slower than 180 cm. Increasing height by 10 cm keeping weight and power the same in real life would not increase time by 13 seconds over an 8 minute segment as was shown in that test. 13 seconds is massive. The conclusion the writer makes is to basically just pick riders based on W/Kg. If true the 6 W/Kg climbers would be winning Paris Roubaix or Milan San Remo instead of the freight trains.
The first table from the flat section is very difficult to interpret due to the odd experimental design whereby one cannot compare equal W/Kg and thus, not apples to apples making one analyse the data separately. My conclusion is the lighter rider at an equal W/Kg will be faster on the flat in Zwift whereas the heavier rider with equal W/kg will be faster in the hills, quite paradoxically.
As a note.....the highspeed team had to pass other teams on the KOM climb segment 2 or 3 times last week. Now I understand why the pass was such a mess.....sticky friction. The other teams did not back off. I was able to bust thru but it was brutally hard given climbing already at good pace and as a team, it hurt our time. I think our result was hampered in several ways despite a fantastic showing and I really think we can possibly even do better
The first table from the flat section is very difficult to interpret due to the odd experimental design whereby one cannot compare equal W/Kg and thus, not apples to apples making one analyse the data separately. My conclusion is the lighter rider at an equal W/Kg will be faster on the flat in Zwift whereas the heavier rider with equal W/kg will be faster in the hills, quite paradoxically.
As a note.....the highspeed team had to pass other teams on the KOM climb segment 2 or 3 times last week. Now I understand why the pass was such a mess.....sticky friction. The other teams did not back off. I was able to bust thru but it was brutally hard given climbing already at good pace and as a team, it hurt our time. I think our result was hampered in several ways despite a fantastic showing and I really think we can possibly even do better
trplay
Zen MBB Master
I suggest you keep studying the matter as opposed to relying on a slow-twitch post. Lots of stuff out there that disproves your lighter guy theory. But back to the sticky draft. Yes, this is why it was such a mess. But it doesn't have to be. Experienced teams can stay tight and pass with no problems. They do it by staying tight with no surges going on in the paceline during the pass. This way when the front rider breaks the sticky drafts the rest are connected to his draft and they never encounter the other team riders stickiness. It's one of those virtual racing skills that isn't the same as outdoors. This is easy to describe but it takes work to pull off as a team. When we have a 270-pound rider cranking almost 400 watts and a tiny 130-pound guy cranking 125 watts in the paceline it's tricky synchronizing the power on the pass. Yes, we have had this combo before. This entire enchilada is complex and a whole lot of fun trying to make the team one well oiled flying machine. So much fun you don't even realize your workout numbers just went through the roof.
benphyr
Guru-me-not
There are probably other factors involved but I can think of some that we often miss. We often talk about w/kg based on the rider weight, however for acceleration / deceleration due to gravity the mass of the bike needs to be included. Likewise the rolling resistance will be affected though to a much smaller degree. I believe I read elsewhere that the draft effect can be set differently in different events on Zwift.
Thankfully there are more complex than plugging in the riders average power numbers into a formula and getting the race results. So we get tactics, teamwork, different rider strengths and power profile, etc. Making it an incredibly fun time with new friends and dreaded “enemy” rteams.
Thankfully there are more complex than plugging in the riders average power numbers into a formula and getting the race results. So we get tactics, teamwork, different rider strengths and power profile, etc. Making it an incredibly fun time with new friends and dreaded “enemy” rteams.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
@RojoRacing It's all magic to me but maybe our resident expert can help?
I am coming to learn that different skills are required in Zwift. WRT power/speeds.....it is not that easy to backtest their model but it is very clear to me that riders drafting on the flats in Zwift do not get as big of a help as they do in real life. As an example, last night if I was on the front at 290 watts and then pulled off into the paceline, I might still need 260 watts but in real life? Probably 180-200. It makes pacing very challenging. In a big peloton in Zwift, the effect is even more noticeable. In a real life race, the riders leading might be doing 300-350 watts but the riders protected might need less than 200 watts.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
Lots of good tips on the team Chat board. This was posted on the team chat board just before the race: "Guys remember when drafting its not like outdoor drafting. There is a wattage range in which you can hold on to the wheel in front of you. It might be 200-180 watts. you can pedal at 200 or 180, both will hold the wheel, 201 and you are moving forward, 179 and you are dropping. The trick is to stay as close to 180 as you can. If you are floating back and forth there is no draft, you have no energy savings. If you are on the wheel but close to the 200 there is really not much savings there either. Try to feather back and find the good spot"
benphyr
Guru-me-not
And finesse it surely is. I have a difficult time doing that. The smoother the power / speed at the front the easier. So pick a w/kg to pull at and then over the first few pulls figure out how that fits everyone. Then have them pull at that power throughout. A smooth team is way faster than a jumpy higher powered team. ATP had a Team of Bs and Cs that made my team of all Bs look slow by a minute or two last night on a 45 min race.!
trplay
Zen MBB Master
@ed 72 Further up the post the discussion was about a podium and it was mentioned you guys would need another C racer. True to life looking at the WTRL results for the ttt and every team that placed ahead of you yesterday had 3 C's. Next week you should have 3 as Ray comes back from his vacation.
I felt we could do in the 49 range.....the podium teams were in the 48 minutes...yikes.....don't think we had that in us even with tons of practice. We did well but came unglued a bit on the hills and regrouping had an impact. Everyone did their best, a quick look at power duration curves shows. Everyone worked very hard. We did our best, we were only 37 seconds off PL top ten. We simply lost more than that 37s on the hills. We had the same 26:42 split as the 9th place team. We were on pace...
