The "My Feet Hurt" Thread

[ratz]

Ok Starting this thread because of all the recent posts about foot pain and cleat position etc.

Disclaimer unless someone proves it they aren't a Foot Doctor seek professional help if you have serious feet problems.

Outside of that post your questions here and offer your N=1 solves to other people.

 

[ratz]

And I'll get us started.

Did some recent changes to the bikes and found a major problem with numbness on the outside of my foot. Always been a minor problem but now it was becoming ride stopping/ending.

If felt like I needed to balance my shoes a bit. So some googling led me to the left/right shims for cleats. Ok, so how do those work and why (because yet more money into the bikes). I Did some digging and finally found this article that filled in the knowledge gaps

Do You Really Need Shoe Wedges, Or Is Your Q-Factor Too Narrow?

By Rick Shultz, MBA, DBA Years ago, I took my first ‘Bike Fitting’ course. It was called ‘Foot Pedal Interface’ offered by BikeFit. It is a very good course and I highly recommend it as a basic requirement for all bike fitters. Why? Because the Foot/Pedal interface is one of the most neglected...

www.roadbikerider.com

I'm going to summarize it and steal some photos in case it goes away

Valgus or Varus?

Who knew? In short (read the article), the pedal is fixed permanently flat in its rotational travel (even if the bike moves, the relative access is flat) Most of us don't have flat feet we have Varus or Valgus tilts. The 4% flat is probably from the 1950's who invented the skinny race bike .

I think I mitigated most of this problem is the past with really tight race shoes that fit well and had heat-molded insoles. I did not have the cash for that on the new shoes because prices went up so much over the last 7 years, so the current shoe is using insoles that are just pre-set and not heat molded, and my problem got a lot worse.

To test this, I stuffed a washer under one corner of the cleat; ok I could feel a difference, not a solve. but better.
There doesn't appear to be a way to see if you are Varus or Valgus without fancy measuring. But there is trial and error.

I ordered some proper 1mm and 2mm cleat wedges from Amazon $16 for a pack with both. I now need to do these test

1. 2mm Varus shim - The ride was definitely better, but felt it in the knee
2. 1mm Valrus shim - pending
3. 2mm Valrus shim - pending
4. 1mm Varus shim - pending

Because I felt it in the knee, I'm going to pay attention to the Q-factor too (also discussed in the article and something I did understand but probably under managed; I have a bad habit of "randomly using pedal washer forgetting they aren't for "protecting the pedals") Shimming can impact the Q-factor so to extend my testing I will:

Pick the best 1mm feeling shim (Varus or Valrus) and continue

1. Add 1mm pedal washer to each side - pending
2. Add 2mm pedal waster to each side - Test
3. Determine which feels better (1 or 2mm) and then try the corresponding 2mm shim to see if it's better or worse

Unless I have a "major" pain issue each test will be a Full 1-3 hour work out ride on the training so I can best understand the impact over a long right. After it's tested indoors I'll try it on the outdoor bike and see if it transfers or needs tweaking for there.

The cleat position will be full rearward the entire time.

 

[RAR2]

And I'll get us started.

Did some recent changes to the bikes and found a major problem with numbness on the outside of my foot. Always been a minor problem but now it was becoming ride stopping/ending.

If felt like I needed to balance my shoes a bit. So some googling led me to the left/right shims for cleats. Ok, so how do those work and why (because yet more money into the bikes). I Did some digging and finally found this article that filled in the knowledge gaps

Do You Really Need Shoe Wedges, Or Is Your Q-Factor Too Narrow?

By Rick Shultz, MBA, DBA Years ago, I took my first ‘Bike Fitting’ course. It was called ‘Foot Pedal Interface’ offered by BikeFit. It is a very good course and I highly recommend it as a basic requirement for all bike fitters. Why? Because the Foot/Pedal interface is one of the most neglected...

www.roadbikerider.com

I'm going to summarize it and steal some photos in case it goes away

Valgus or Varus?

Who knew? In short (read the article), the pedal is fixed permanently flat in its rotational travel (even if the bike moves, the relative access is flat) Most of us don't have flat feet we have Varus or Valgus tilts. The 4% flat is probably from the 1950's who invented the skinny race bike .

I think I mitigated most of this problem is the past with really tight race shoes that fit well and had heat-molded insoles. I did not have the cash for that on the new shoes because prices went up so much over the last 7 years, so the current shoe is using insoles that are just pre-set and not heat molded, and my problem got a lot worse.

To test this, I stuffed a washer under one corner of the cleat; ok I could feel a difference, not a solve. but better.
There doesn't appear to be a way to see if you are Varus or Valgus without fancy measuring. But there is trial and error.

I ordered some proper 1mm and 2mm cleat wedges from Amazon $16 for a pack with both. I now need to do these test

1. 2mm Varus shim - The ride was definitely better, but felt it in the knee
2. 1mm Valrus shim - pending
3. 2mm Valrus shim - pending
4. 1mm Varus shim - pending

Because I felt it in the knee, I'm going to pay attention to the Q-factor too (also discussed in the article and something I did understand but probably under managed; I have a bad habit of "randomly using pedal washer forgetting they aren't for "protecting the pedals") Shimming can impact the Q-factor so to extend my testing I will:

Pick the best 1mm feeling shim (Varus or Valrus) and continue

1. Add 1mm pedal washer to each side - pending
2. Add 2mm pedal waster to each side - Test
3. Determine which feels better (1 or 2mm) and then try the corresponding 2mm shim to see if it's better or worse

Unless I have a "major" pain issue each test will be a Full 1-3 hour work out ride on the training so I can best understand the impact over a long right. After it's tested indoors I'll try it on the outdoor bike and see if it transfers or needs tweaking for there.

The cleat position will be full rearward the entire time.

Ratz, I really like the idea, thanks for putting the info out here for me to find. I would like to try the shims, so would you give me the Amazon address so I can see them.

Thanks, Rick

 

[ratz]

Ratz, I really like the idea, thanks for putting the info out here for me to find. I would like to try the shims, so would you give me the Amazon address so I can see them.

Thanks, Rick

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09489KHTZ

 

[Derek]

And I'll get us started.

Did some recent changes to the bikes and found a major problem with numbness on the outside of my foot. Always been a minor problem but now it was becoming ride stopping/ending.

If felt like I needed to balance my shoes a bit. So some googling led me to the left/right shims for cleats. Ok, so how do those work and why (because yet more money into the bikes). I Did some digging and finally found this article that filled in the knowledge gaps

Do You Really Need Shoe Wedges, Or Is Your Q-Factor Too Narrow?

By Rick Shultz, MBA, DBA Years ago, I took my first ‘Bike Fitting’ course. It was called ‘Foot Pedal Interface’ offered by BikeFit. It is a very good course and I highly recommend it as a basic requirement for all bike fitters. Why? Because the Foot/Pedal interface is one of the most neglected...

www.roadbikerider.com

I'm going to summarize it and steal some photos in case it goes away

Valgus or Varus?

Who knew? In short (read the article), the pedal is fixed permanently flat in its rotational travel (even if the bike moves, the relative access is flat) Most of us don't have flat feet we have Varus or Valgus tilts. The 4% flat is probably from the 1950's who invented the skinny race bike .

I think I mitigated most of this problem is the past with really tight race shoes that fit well and had heat-molded insoles. I did not have the cash for that on the new shoes because prices went up so much over the last 7 years, so the current shoe is using insoles that are just pre-set and not heat molded, and my problem got a lot worse.

To test this, I stuffed a washer under one corner of the cleat; ok I could feel a difference, not a solve. but better.
There doesn't appear to be a way to see if you are Varus or Valgus without fancy measuring. But there is trial and error.

I ordered some proper 1mm and 2mm cleat wedges from Amazon $16 for a pack with both. I now need to do these test

1. 2mm Varus shim - The ride was definitely better, but felt it in the knee
2. 1mm Valrus shim - pending
3. 2mm Valrus shim - pending
4. 1mm Varus shim - pending

Because I felt it in the knee, I'm going to pay attention to the Q-factor too (also discussed in the article and something I did understand but probably under managed; I have a bad habit of "randomly using pedal washer forgetting they aren't for "protecting the pedals") Shimming can impact the Q-factor so to extend my testing I will:

Pick the best 1mm feeling shim (Varus or Valrus) and continue

1. Add 1mm pedal washer to each side - pending
2. Add 2mm pedal waster to each side - Test
3. Determine which feels better (1 or 2mm) and then try the corresponding 2mm shim to see if it's better or worse

Unless I have a "major" pain issue each test will be a Full 1-3 hour work out ride on the training so I can best understand the impact over a long right. After it's tested indoors I'll try it on the outdoor bike and see if it transfers or needs tweaking for there.

The cleat position will be full rearward the entire time.

Last summer I started ramping up my long-ride mileage. Prior to that, I had done a century or two, but last year i did my first 150mi+ ride. I noticed that I was getting terrible hot-foot and numbness starting around the 70-80 mile mark.

Soon after, I drilled my Lake Wide MX238 shoes to add a midsole cleat. I left the regular cleats in there too so I could have optionality mid-ride should I ever need it due to pain.

That move greatly alleviated the hot foot issue. I'd still get numbness from time to time, but it was manageable. I'd say my average wattage over long rides at that point was around 100-120 watts.

With that configuration, I went on to do a series of 130, 180, 250, and 375 mile rides this year. Over these longer distances, it was more of the same. I'd need to take a bathroom break or breather every 50 miles or so to get off the bike and my blood flowing down to my feet and they were good. Averaging 120-150 watts based on the length of the ride.

Then this summer I did a century at time-trial pace. Full gas. No stopping. 200 watts for 4 hrs and 12 minutes. My 1st 2nd and 3rd metatarsals on my right foot felt like they were legitimately injured after that effort. It took them several days to a week to fully recover. I investigated better soles and landed on these Icebug insoles with a little nub right under the middle of your foot. It felt strange at first but the reviews were glowing so I gave them a fair shot. They greatly reduced both numbness and hotfoot, and the metatarsal pain never returned. I did the PBP (762miles - nearly non-stop) in August and I didn't have any significant foot pain, but I was left with residual numbness in the small toes of my left foot and big toes of my right foot which is still present (but fading).

But during the PBP, I got a debilitating shin splint which almost caused me to DNF. I found a topical cream which got me through, but when I went to see my accupressurist (who is absolutely amazing - inducted into the massage hall of fame), she said that I had a very intense knot which affected my entire foot/ankle/shin that originated...you guessed it...right where that little sole nub was pressing into the bottom of my foot. So, she recommends I ditch the Icebug insoles.

I have since purchased a pair of Carbon Superfeet Insoles which have been working better than the stock Lake insoles but nowhere near as well as the Icebugs. So, I'm in a bit of a quandary. The Icebugs never gave me issues for anything but the most extreme distance, but if there's a more anatomic way to fix the problem I'd like to. I fear that extremely high wattage over a shorter distance (which I never tried w/ the Icebugs) could produce the same sort of fascia-binding that the longer but lower-watt of PBP produced.

Confirming that concern, I did a 300-600watt+ sprint last night which, just in 3 minutes of intense effort, left my metatarsals screaming on the Superfeets. Since the pain appears on the outside of the foot, I assume that means I'm distributing most of the pressure there. This squares with what i've read about duck footed folks (like me) and how they need Varus correction. So, I bought a couple sets of Varus toe insert wedges to experiment. We'll see how that pans out.

Only other thing of note is that I've already been leveraging 25mm pedal extenders for years since pedaling without them results in knee pain. So, I might have to get some smaller extenders once i have my foot position changed. Going to try picking up a pair of 15mm and 20mm ones to see how they feel. Reality for me is knee pain trumps foot pain. So, if I need to scrap all this experimentation and just go back to the Icebugs, I'll do that before causing re-emergent problems with my knees.

 

[ratz]

Only other thing of note is that I've already been leveraging 25mm pedal extenders for years since pedaling without them results in knee pain. So, I might have to get some smaller extenders once i have my foot position changed. Going to try picking up a pair of 15mm and 20mm ones to see how they feel. Reality for me is knee pain trumps foot pain. So, if I need to scrap all this experimentation and just go back to the Icebugs, I'll do that before causing re-emergent problems with my knees.

Are you wearing wide shoes or normal shoes?

I finally tracked down the insoles I used to use; that are heat molded.
https://yoursole.com/us The "Thin" version is for bike shoes.

My testing is ongoing; In the bike training room I have:
3 pairs of shoes with different cleat configurations
Pedal Washer and wrenches
Ride until foot problem then swap shoes; take notes
Rotate the configuration of shoes because they are identical

I'm gonna figure this out....this weekend, I'm going to get seriously organized.

 

[cpml123]

I hear you about the forefoot varus. It runs in my family. My kids both need custom orthotics to walk or play basketball. For my biking shoes, the custom orthotics would have been too thick. My PT used a pair of Superfeet and added some felts to increase forefoot varus. Both sides are not identical because they have different degrees of varus.

 

[Derek]

Are you wearing wide shoes or normal shoes?

I finally tracked down the insoles I used to use; that are heat molded.
https://yoursole.com/us The "Thin" version is for bike shoes.

My testing is ongoing; In the bike training room I have:
3 pairs of shoes with different cleat configurations
Pedal Washer and wrenches
Ride until foot problem then swap shoes; take notes
Rotate the configuration of shoes because they are identical

I'm gonna figure this out....this weekend, I'm going to get seriously organized.

Wides. I have a 4E width foot.

Yesterday I put the various wedges in and swapped out my 25mm pedal extenders for 20mm on the trainer. Right foot felt great. Right side of left knee felt strange. So, I took out the left foot wedge, and the rest of the ride went well. Did the Zwift UberPretzel without pain.

Going to keep going w only the right shim in and experiment with 15mm and original 25mm extenders to find optimal fit. Thinking the extender lengths may differ by leg too.

 

[Terrarium]

@ratz my foot pain has kind of disappeared. I've greatly reduced my hot foot my pedaling at at every clock position rather than mashing. More pulling up really helps. This rigid sole helped alot.

SOLESTAR KONTROL: High Performance Cycling Insoles

Experience power, stability, and comfort with SOLESTAR KONTROL. Enhance cycling performance with our fiberglass core for optimal power transfer. Shop the best cycling insoles now!

solestar.com

 

[Derek]

Wides. I have a 4E width foot.

Yesterday I put the various wedges in and swapped out my 25mm pedal extenders for 20mm on the trainer. Right foot felt great. Right side of left knee felt strange. So, I took out the left foot wedge, and the rest of the ride went well. Did the Zwift UberPretzel without pain.

Going to keep going w only the right shim in and experiment with 15mm and original 25mm extenders to find optimal fit. Thinking the extender lengths may differ by leg too.

Shorter pedal extenders ended up being a bust. I need the 25mms after all. I did however settle on the fact that a shim in the right and none in the left with 25mm spacers feels best and best reproduces my natural foot width and angle when standing/walking.

I tried the superfeet carbon soles and was still getting pain. Switched to the Specialized Blue footbeds which have more arch support and a larger metatarsal pad set further back behind the ball of my foot and it made for a VERY cushy 25 mile maiden voyage, but I’ll put it to the test today with a 128mi ride around the LA/Malibu area.

 

[CruzinCambridge]

Late to this thread. Not to foot issues. @Derek I had the same exact experience with the icebug... I replaced the stock insoles with the icebug ones and they felt awesome... up until about 350k. I lost feeling in my middle three toes on my right foot and the second two in my left foot for about a month after PBP... and I stopped after 600k. I've used Superfeet carbon insoles but I find the stiff carbon aggravates my arches.

I've of course had issues that sent me to the icebugs. To start with one of my feet is 1/2 size bigger and I have a leg length discrepancy. On my DF bike I went a size down (giro 9.5 HV) and put a shim under the cleat of my right shoe. With my comfy randonneur SPD shoes (size 10), I can't fit a shim under my cleats so I added a flat Dr. Sholes insole under the icebug on the right side. I also have 155 cranks and while I haven't moved to a mid-foot cleat, I've moved the cleats as far as they go which is behind the ball of my foot and between the two and addressing the leg length issues, I've eliminated knee pain.

There's a lot to consider here. Thansk @ratz 'm going to check out the valus/vagus article and try some felt pads. I've been thinking about getting custom shoes or custom insoles... which would also address the issue... but the costs are crazy. Interested in hearing both of your reports.

 

[Derek]

Late to this thread. Not to foot issues. @Derek I had the same exact experience with the icebug... I replaced the stock insoles with the icebug ones and they felt awesome... up until about 350k. I lost feeling in my middle three toes on my right foot and the second two in my left foot for about a month after PBP... and I stopped after 600k. I've used Superfeet carbon insoles but I find the stiff carbon aggravates my arches.

I've of course had issues that sent me to the icebugs. To start with one of my feet is 1/2 size bigger and I have a leg length discrepancy. On my DF bike I went a size down (giro 9.5 HV) and put a shim under the cleat of my right shoe. With my comfy randonneur SPD shoes (size 10), I can't fit a shim under my cleats so I added a flat Dr. Sholes insole under the icebug on the right side. I also have 155 cranks and while I haven't moved to a mid-foot cleat, I've moved the cleats as far as they go which is behind the ball of my foot and between the two and addressing the leg length issues, I've eliminated knee pain.

There's a lot to consider here. Thansk @ratz 'm going to check out the valus/vagus article and try some felt pads. I've been thinking about getting custom shoes or custom insoles... which would also address the issue... but the costs are crazy. Interested in hearing both of your reports.

Zero and I mean truly zero foot issues on a 128 mile ride yesterday. First time I can ever remember that being the case. No numb toes, no metatarsal pain, no hot foot. I’m guessing strong arch support is what I was missing. The Specialized metatarsal button is also much better placed and larger in circumference than the IceBug one - and I think this has something to do with it being better.They have green ones too that have even higher arch support, but unless my pains re-emerge over time, I think I’m sticking with the blues. Feeling very hopeful that my feet may no longer be the limiting factor in how fast and far I can go.

 

[ratz]

I've been making good progress as well. Little more to work out.

I'm testing 3 different shoes. 2 older pairs (my old indoor pair and my outdoor ones) and a new pair for outdoors because the old pair really beat up. I'm using the old outdoor pair as a control set that I can change because I know how they feel when they feel good. Two of the shoes came way back when with heat-molded insoles so on a fly I re-heated them up, and I made sure I overdid it just a bit to get them good and soft; put them back in the shoes and remolded. Happy to work that worked even though the docs say it's one and done. I have a pair of SOLE https://yoursole.com/us/shop/footbeds/active-thin in reserve for the new outside shoes but I'm holding off on that for now incase I hate those new shoes.

At this point I have removed the shims for now, and I'm testing q-factor using .8mm and 1mm pedal spacers/washers.

1) Without the shims, I add .8mm to both sides. With the three shoes, all of them were better but not perfect. I played with forward and back cleat positions and there was variability but not enough to get a complete solve.

2) Without the shims, I added another .8mm to each side for a total of 1.6mm, and it's an even better 2-hour trainer ride there was some pain at the end but not anything like before. Knees didn't seem to mind at all.

Next Up: Testing cleat forward and back positions and then test 2mm spacers. Once I figure out the best spacers I'll move on to the shims for final fine tunning.

It is shocking how much difference the .8mm spacer made with each one that I added. My guess is that on previous bikes I just got lucky with the number I installed usually just qty 1 because I thought it was just a washer.