To V20c as a lifelong DF roadie

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
When I saw you ask the crank length question, I thought, "Oh, here we go..." There's voodoo in this question.

These bikes put more strain on the knees than a DF, so dialing in the fit, including crank length, is important. Since the back is supported against the seat pan, you now have a solid surface to push against, kind of like doing a leg press at the gym. This is great for putting down power, but if the fit is off, you'll feel it in the knees. The rule of thumb is to have cranks short enough that when the pedal is coming over the top and heading into the power stroke, that knee is bent no more than 90 degrees. To apply power with the knee bent more than that can create strain. On a DF bike, the knees bend more than 90 coming over the top of the stroke, but you aren't putting down power at that point, partly because you have nothing to push against. It's almost like you're waiting for gravity to carry the leg over the top of the stroke, and by the time it does and you're ready to apply power, the knee is then in a better position to handle it. Having cranks on a bent that are a centimeter too long can be like riding a DF with the saddle a centimeter too low.

Up against that is crank leverage. I'm short, at 5'5", and I ride 160mm cranks. I started with 165, but they were a little long. I rode 160 happily for some years, but then some people here on the forum started experimenting with crank arm length and reporting their findings (I will let you to decide if you want to go searching for that rabbit hole). "If 160 was better than 165," I began to wonder, "would 155 be better than 160?" There was only one way to find out. I found an inexpensive used set of 155s on eBay that fit a spare bb that I had on hand, and I gave it a whirl. On the flats, they were great--a smoother pedal stroke, and maybe a tiny bump in speed. I definitely noticed a speed bump on downhills as the shorter cranks extended my ability to spin that 52/11. I even picked up a few downhill KOMs that eluded me with the 160s. But on the climbs--and I do love to climb--I noticed a decrease in leverage. Just as the 155s extended my downhill spin range, I had to spin an easier gear on the climbs. I felt slower, and climbing fairly quickly has always been my thing. I rode the 155s for a while longer--long enough to fully acclimate to them--then switched back to the 160s for the sake of comparison. It didn't take me long to know that I was "home" with the 160s, and I've stayed there since.

This is not me telling you that you should ride any particular length crank, but that there can be some trial and error with this particular metric, involving body mechanics, riding style, route tendencies, etc. I was glad that I experimented with those 155s (I sold them for just about what I bought them for); doing so confirmed that I have found my personal best crank arm length for my body and the kind of riding that I do.

Rotor and Aerozine make nice short cranks, and Praxis does as well, down to 160. One cool thing about Aerozine is that they use a flipchip at the pedal end that gives you a 5mm difference, depending on which way you have the chip flipped. It's like buying two crank lengths in one.
This is super helpful, and insightful! I did not realize that recumbent position would increase knee strain but what you’re saying totally makes sense, especially given how isolated the muscles are, you cant dance up and down on the pedals like a DF bike. I’m 5’11” so I’m going to ghess that 165 cranks will be good. I suppose, better to be too short than to long…
 

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
Excellent explanation Craig!
I had a similar experience deciding between 172, 170, and 160mm.
And found 170mm to be the best setup for me.
“You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough.”

Height 5'10"
X-seam 42.5"
Inseam 33"
Weight 160#

Height 178cm
X-seam 108cm
Inseam 84cm
Weight 72.6kg
Interesting! we’re basically the same size…170, huh? Ive got some thinking to do…
 

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
I had some luck the other day…
Rain obscured my vision a bit and I hit this lip at about 30 mph and instantly flatted, sealant spewing out the damaged tire. I was able to stop quickly and remain vertical.
View attachment 13789

Maybe tire inserts would have saved me? Maybe if I was on a DF I could have let the bike float over the bump? To answer your question, I think we’re more prone to crashing due to the fact that we tend to hit bumps harder.

BTW, the tire lost its seal when the rim tape tore. Later on that day the (unrecognized) damaged sidewall split and the tube blew out the hole, several hours after the ride.
Wow! is ot possible at all to lift the front wheel at speed at least while riding?
 
I agree with @chicorider in that using maths to calculate crank length will probably get you close, but a bit of experimentation is worthwhile. I already stated that I have some unique limitations in my hip, so tend to go shorter than my calculated crank length may suggest. I know for me, the step to 155 was noticable and welcome.... which makes me want to try shorter again. The only reason I mentioned the crank length thing was because of the power meter suggestion of a crank based power meter. Once you buy a crank PM, you are going to be less likely to change crank length. My suggestion is to either hold off on the PM, or go pedal PM. Then when you get up to speed on the V20, perhaps do some experimentation with crank length. You won't be able to experiment until you are comfortable and making decent bent power.

On that note. I got my V20 as a stock built up V20. It had the stock wide bars, SRAM Rival groupset etc. I decided to just ride it like that for a few months to make sure I was comfortable on a V20, and it achieved what I wanted with my back pain. One of the first things I did after getting used to it was change to narrow bars. The stock bars are very wide, and that is great for learning, but not so aero. I changed to narrow bars, and it was probably one of the bigest changes I made in terms of difficulty to ride the bike. It took a few rides to adapt to that. Then I changed groupset/wheels etc. later. My point is........ going for higher performance on the V20 will make it more difficult to learn. I would probably just build it up for ease of riding first, and change stuff later. If you have bits in the garage, build it with them. Make sure you get everything you want out of the bike and then change later. This applies to crank length also.

BTW - the evidence you found on crank lengths was about efficiency... which is the effect on power. You also need to consider bio-mechanics. Almost 100% of the time, a shorter crank will improve bio-mechanics so will be easier on your joints. Shorter crank means lower range of motion in hips and knees. It means you will spin quicker and grind less. This normally means lower stress on joints. Not everyone needs that. Some people have stronger joints and will not benefit from that. Unfortuantely I am not one of those people.
 
On a bent, you are definately going to be hitting more bumps and harder. You can sort of throw your weight off the bike and let the bike hit the bumps with less weight on it to prevent damage. I highly recommend a strong wheel and tyre combo. I had a few punctures before I went tubeless. One was a high speed front wheel, and I managed to stop it safely, but it gave me a scare. I now run 90mm wheels (deeper wheels are stronger) with tubeless tyres. This has been very robust. I've not had a puncture that I had to stop for with this setup (6000kms). The yoeleo wheels I have do not have spoke holes in the rim. This has two benefits: rim is stronger by not having many holes in it (Yoeleo claim it is 30% stronger), and you can run tubeless without rim tape which gives a more reliable tubeless experience.
 

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
I agree with @chicorider in that using maths to calculate crank length will probably get you close, but a bit of experimentation is worthwhile. I already stated that I have some unique limitations in my hip, so tend to go shorter than my calculated crank length may suggest. I know for me, the step to 155 was noticable and welcome.... which makes me want to try shorter again. The only reason I mentioned the crank length thing was because of the power meter suggestion of a crank based power meter. Once you buy a crank PM, you are going to be less likely to change crank length. My suggestion is to either hold off on the PM, or go pedal PM. Then when you get up to speed on the V20, perhaps do some experimentation with crank length. You won't be able to experiment until you are comfortable and making decent bent power.

On that note. I got my V20 as a stock built up V20. It had the stock wide bars, SRAM Rival groupset etc. I decided to just ride it like that for a few months to make sure I was comfortable on a V20, and it achieved what I wanted with my back pain. One of the first things I did after getting used to it was change to narrow bars. The stock bars are very wide, and that is great for learning, but not so aero. I changed to narrow bars, and it was probably one of the bigest changes I made in terms of difficulty to ride the bike. It took a few rides to adapt to that. Then I changed groupset/wheels etc. later. My point is........ going for higher performance on the V20 will make it more difficult to learn. I would probably just build it up for ease of riding first, and change stuff later. If you have bits in the garage, build it with them. Make sure you get everything you want out of the bike and then change later. This applies to crank length also.

BTW - the evidence you found on crank lengths was about efficiency... which is the effect on power. You also need to consider bio-mechanics. Almost 100% of the time, a shorter crank will improve bio-mechanics so will be easier on your joints. Shorter crank means lower range of motion in hips and knees. It means you will spin quicker and grind less. This normally means lower stress on joints. Not everyone needs that. Some people have stronger joints and will not benefit from that. Unfortuantely I am not one of those people.
Sage advice. ok, I won’t get a power meter for now, and will avoid the crank-mounted PM. i was planning on getting the one from sram that mounts on any crank 165-175, but if I decide to go lower later, you’re right, doesn’t make sense. I suspect it may be a while before I start training with power again, so I’ll set this aside for now. On the plus side, my LBS got back to me with the invoice for the SRAM Force AXS Etap build…lower than I expected, I’m going for it! Hopefully Cruzbike has quick delivery times…
 

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
On a bent, you are definately going to be hitting more bumps and harder. You can sort of throw your weight off the bike and let the bike hit the bumps with less weight on it to prevent damage. I highly recommend a strong wheel and tyre combo. I had a few punctures before I went tubeless. One was a high speed front wheel, and I managed to stop it safely, but it gave me a scare. I now run 90mm wheels (deeper wheels are stronger) with tubeless tyres. This has been very robust. I've not had a puncture that I had to stop for with this setup (6000kms). The yoeleo wheels I have do not have spoke holes in the rim. This has two benefits: rim is stronger by not having many holes in it (Yoeleo claim it is 30% stronger), and you can run tubeless without rim tape which gives a more reliable tubeless experience.
Yeah I haven’t yet made the tubeless jump, but I’ll probably go with 28 or 30mm tires on my Zipp 404s, with a good tire liner…I have a pair of Cosmic Carbones that saw me through about 40,000 miles in 8-9 years, from the smooth roads of Miami to the crater-lined roads of Puerto Rico, they never even needed truing…I’m hoping my Zipps are up to the same kind of bomb-proof standard, but only time will tell…I only have about 5,000 miles on them so far, but they feel pretty solid.

On that note, I have a question: Does a deeper front wheel positively affect handling? generally you don't want to go 90mm on a DF front wheel because you lose steering agility, maneuverability, and if a strong crosswind gets you at the right angle when you are not putting a lot of weight on it (such as by being in the drops), it could result in a bad time. But it occurs to me that this might be different on a recumbent, and more specifically, a Cruzbike. more weight is being placed on the front wheel,, and you are also torquing the front wheel by pedaling. And of course, the recumbent suffers from a significant reduction in agility and maneuverability anyway so perhaps that is an irrelevant consideration? Lastly, would a deeper rim front wheel assist with stability at all, given the increased angular momentum (I know people will say studies have shown wheels turning have little to no gyroscopic effect on the bike’s stability…I‘m not convinced, on rollers, I definitely balance easier on my Zipp 808s than on training aluminum hoops)….
 
I have a set of Roval CL-50s that are on my DF. They are 50mm and only 1400g. They have been great and never done any maintenence on them in 20,000kms. They spent a couple thousand kms on my V20, but after hitting a few potholes, I decided I wanted a sacrificial cheap chinese wheelset on the V20 and got the Yoeleo C88s which are cheap (half the price of the Rovals), and quicker at speed (about 1-1.5kph quicker). If I break them I won't be as upset about it. But I should say the braking on the Rovals is much better (rim brakes).

I suspect the V20 is a little less sensitive to wind on wheels than my DF. I would say the 90mm wheels feel similar to 50mm on the DF. You still get blown around, but not as much. I ride with my 90mm wheels in all conditions including some gusty wind. The wind itself is not bad, but passing high speed trucks can move you around a bit, so I make plenty of room when I hear them coming.
 

Don1

Guru
I run 80mm Chinese rims. I was a bit tentative for awhile but I've never had anything but box section rims.... Now after 9 months later 8-9k riding in all weather's they feel like not a concern.although if you try and brace yourself that seems to be worse than just pedalling along. I guess this maybe from the micro steering that happens with the mmb layout.
 

chicorider

Zen MBB Master
Body weight can also play into how much (or not) the wind tosses you around. I only weigh 130lbs., so I feel it a bit sometimes--mostly trucks passing, or gusty sidewinds. When I built up my current V20c wheels, I went with a 47mm deep rim, front and rear, as a compromise--deep enough for a bit of aero benefit, but not so deep that I struggle for control at my weight. I suppose it's a bit like the crank arm length question; you eventually figure out what rim depth is best for you, where you live, and how you ride.

Steering stability on the V is hard to describe because, on the one hand, you have less steering stability with the bb moving around while adding your feet to the steering mix. On the other hand, you now have four steering inputs, not just two. And as inputs go, the legs are powerful ones. Once you figure out how to incorporate them into the steering, rather than trying to fight them with your arms (that's part of the learning curve), the V will feel pretty darn stable.

One trick I figured out: When riding at speed--say, anything over 35mph on a downhill--and the winds are gusting, tossing me around a bit, I will keep my feet slowly spinning (even though I'm actually coasting), just to keep the legs engaged as steering inputs to help me keep my line in the wind. When my legs are still they become static weight that the wind can move around at will, and the V is already front heavy because that is where the running gear is. On calm days, this is not an issue. Coast away. But on gusty days, at higher speeds, I'm better off keeping the feet moving and the legs engaged.
 
A pedal suggestion: go for something double-sided. Some people use Speedplays. I use Shimano XTR SPDs. I started with single-sided Ultegra road pedals, and fiddling with the pedal orientation while also trying to get rolling through an intersection quickly became a pain. I use Shimano RX8 gravel racing shoes. Lightweight and plenty stiff. Also easy to walk in. But most important, for me, is the recessed cleat. When I put my left foot down at a stop (while still being fully reclined), I have good grip on the asphalt with the rubber sole. Exposed road cleats, by comparison, are pretty slippery. The last thing you want when you put your put down is to have that foot skate out from under you. Down you go, in front of everybody. But at least the only thing that hurts is your pride.

Here are a few of my recent Strava posts, just to give you more perspective.



+1 on this idea, I use a double sided SPD Pedal and (currently) use MBK shoes.. Not the lightest but great when you need to walk
 
I also find at high speed (I have gone up to about 55mph, but anything over about 35), it is important to relax and let the bike flow. Wind will move you around a bit, but if you react aggressively to resist that, the resulting inputs can be much worse and may instigate death wobbles. Best to just let the bike flow and gently move it back on line. Of course you need some lane space to do that!
 

Randyc3

Well-Known Member
One trick I figured out: When riding at speed--say, anything over 35mph on a downhill--and the winds are gusting, tossing me around a bit, I will keep my feet slowly spinning (even though I'm actually coasting), just to keep the legs engaged as steering inputs to help me keep my line in the wind. When my legs are still they become static weight that the wind can move around at will, and the V is already front heavy because that is where the running gear is. On calm days, this is not an issue. Coast away. But on gusty days, at higher speeds, I'm better off keeping the feet moving and the legs engaged.
Interesing technique:doing slow pedals rotations while descending at speed. Definitely see why this would work. I stop all my pedaling above 35mph and steer via counter steering on the bar. I just need a little pressure for any direction changes. Kudos to you for being to balance all 4 inputs at speed!
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Actually that's a really interesting issue. Are recumbents more or less prone to crashing when getting a flat than a DF roadbike? If so, I might want to consider tire liners, like I used to do when riding in rough terrain...adds a bit of rolling resistance, but means no flats ever
I used the Vittoria gravel liners, and just switched to the road liners. The gravel liners work great. Had a couple of front flats, and they were non events. They even let you ride flat to the nearest bike shop. But good luck finding tubeless tires in stock now with the supply chain!
 

gaspi101

Well-Known Member
Thank you everyone for your friendly welcome and kind support. All the great info and community support was instrumental in this decision. Particularly since I‘ve never ridden a cruzbike before and have only ridden a regular recumbent for about 10 minutes. You guys are awesome. Ordered…too late to back out now! Can’t wait to ride one for the first time.62525BC5-A115-47EF-A83B-2ADAAC05930A.jpeg
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I think the 165s are a good starting point. I think Cruzbike sold the V20 with 165s standard in their full made up bike (that is what mine came with). I then changed to 155s after about 6 months. You can get cheap 155s and 145s one ebay made by BBK that fit the SRAM GPX BB that was standard on the V20. I am curious to try 145s and see how that goes. @LarryOz is the fastest V rider around here, and I think he rides even shorter than 145.

The problem is locating short crank sets. Most common name crank manufacturers do not go shorter than 165. So you need to modify longer ones, or go to lesser known options like BBK. The BBK are good quality and light. Not as pretty as some, but do the job wheel, and standard compact chain ring bolt set, so you can run many different chainrings on them, so you can still get good quality chainrings or Q rings if you like.
I have 140's on my V20C - love them - I really love anything between 140-150mm.

Here is the info on the guy (Mark) that did the first one for me 8 years ago (after that I just started doing my own) - thinking he is still in business

http://bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks/index.html
Looks the the link still works.

His name is Mark: He does excellent work
 
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