Tubeless wheel setup - does it initially spin not as long?

[cpml123]

Hi all,

I have tubeless set up on 2 sets of wheels - Lightbicycle with DT Swiss 240 hubs and Velocity Aileron wheels. Both are set up as tubeless.

When I spin the Lightbicycle wheel by hand, the wheel stops spinning pretty quickly. I was pretty disappointed at its performance as I have heard how good DT Swiss hubs are supposedly. I then compared them to a Compagnolo Zonda wheelset which spinned much longer, but they were set up with inner tubes. When I tried to spin the Velocity Aileron wheels with tubeless setup, they also seem to stop spnning rather quickly. That had me scratch my head that I cannot be lucky enough to have two sets of expensive slow wheels. I just tested the new Q45's stock wheels with inner tube set up, and they spinned longer than the DT Swiss 240 and Velocity hubs. The Lightbicycle wheels have about 1500 mi. Velocity Aileron wheels have around 1000 mi. Q45 stock wheels have maybe 30 mi.

So now I am thinking... is it because both wheelsets are set up as tubeless with tubeless sealant sloshing around inside the tires when I spin the wheels by hand? Does the sealant's sloshing inside the tire cause additional inertia/drag so that the wheels get slowed down more quickly than with a inner tube setup? Under actual riding, I assume the sealant will coat inside the tires uniformly. Does that then negate the sloshing/slowing effect?

I guess I am just trying to figure out external factor that makes me slow... I should just ride more than once a week to get faster rather than blaming equipment.

Michael

 

[Don1]

Take the sealant out with a syringe and spin again....... Just to put your mind at ease or not. I find tubeless needs KMS...er miles, to be worth it. Latex tubes seem a better deal for weekend warriors(the goop may thicken as it sets and won't flow making balance issues for sure)

 

[Frito Bandito]

Another thing to consider is rotational weight. Heavier is going to spin longer. If there is an abundance of grease then that could also make the wheels spin less. I also have a pair of Zondas on my 5 year old commuter bike, and when I figured they were about done and needed replacing, on a whim I replaced the bearings. However, I cleaned the new bearings until they were spotless, and sprayed some WD40 on them. I figured they would be toast in a short while anyway so might as well. That was about 2 years ago, and all I ever do is squirt the bearings every few months with WD40. They still roll beautifully, and have given me about 5000km on the commuter. Just last week I put a pair of 28mm Conti 4000 tires on them and all I can do is shake my head that the wheels have held up this long. When I spin the rear up on the bike stand, it rolls for a really long time. I have half a mind to do the same for the bearings on my Bullets when I replace them soon.

 

[cpml123]

I just took off the wheels and try to feel the resistance when I twist the hub with my fingers. The DT Swiss hub actually feels slightly less resistant than the Q45 hub, so that seems to eliminate the spin time due hub difference. It appears to confirm that it's possible it's sloshing that drags the wheel spin down. Like @Don1 mentioned, I can also just siphon the sealant out the wheel and compare before/after. That seems a little messy... I am still trying avoid it. I guess he is correct... a little too much hassle for weekend riders even though not having to change tube with puncture is nice!

 

[benphyr]

If you wanted to compare you would have a lot of variables to eliminate before getting to anything resembling a fair comparison.
In a vacuum.
Same force applied (wheel speed might be what you want but based on your description it is force - weight applied to outside of wheel tangential to wheel for certain height.
Same angular moment of inertia. Heavier commuter or stock wheel/tires is going to be very different from a light weight performance setup.

 

[benphyr]

Another thing to consider is rotational weight. Heavier is going to spin longer. If there is an abundance of grease then that could also make the wheels spin less. I also have a pair of Zondas on my 5 year old commuter bike, and when I figured they were about done and needed replacing, on a whim I replaced the bearings. However, I cleaned the new bearings until they were spotless, and sprayed some WD40 on them. I figured they would be toast in a short while anyway so might as well. That was about 2 years ago, and all I ever do is squirt the bearings every few months with WD40. They still roll beautifully, and have given me about 5000km on the commuter. Just last week I put a pair of 28mm Conti 4000 tires on them and all I can do is shake my head that the wheels have held up this long. When I spin the rear up on the bike stand, it rolls for a really long time. I have half a mind to do the same for the bearings on my Bullets when I replace them soon.

For most say “No” to WD40. It helps clean and gives very lightweight lubricant. It can work for @Frito Bandito because he keeps rides in very good ie. clean environment, keeps things spotless, re-lubes on schedule, etc. For many people it will provide cleaning but the lubricating abilities are not up to heavy duty neglect or conditions. But again better wd40 than no care- better by a long margin.

 

[paco1961]

Another thing to consider is rotational weight. Heavier is going to spin longer. If there is an abundance of grease then that could also make the wheels spin less. I also have a pair of Zondas on my 5 year old commuter bike, and when I figured they were about done and needed replacing, on a whim I replaced the bearings. However, I cleaned the new bearings until they were spotless, and sprayed some WD40 on them. I figured they would be toast in a short while anyway so might as well. That was about 2 years ago, and all I ever do is squirt the bearings every few months with WD40. They still roll beautifully, and have given me about 5000km on the commuter. Just last week I put a pair of 28mm Conti 4000 tires on them and all I can do is shake my head that the wheels have held up this long. When I spin the rear up on the bike stand, it rolls for a really long time. I have half a mind to do the same for the bearings on my Bullets when I replace them soon.

It astounds me how much gunk gets into wheel bearing sets - even on a fair weather only bike. And for many hubs, getting to the bearings is reasonably simple. I have no idea how much actual wattage is saved by a good bearing set cleaning but I can tell you that if makes you at least feel better. Sort of like a good car wax job. It may not run any better but it sure seems like it does!

 

[Frito Bandito]

For most say “No” to WD40. It helps clean and gives very lightweight lubricant. It can work for @Frito Bandito because he keeps rides in very good ie. clean environment, keeps things spotless, re-lubes on schedule, etc. For many people it will provide cleaning but the lubricating abilities are not up to heavy duty neglect or conditions. But again better wd40 than no care- better by a long margin.

That is the key Benphyr. I am a weirdo when it comes to keeping my bikes clean. Before assembly I waxed every frame and painted parts with an aircraft/marine grade wax (Collinite Fleetwax 885) by hand which gets refreshed at least twice a year. If it rains or I run through a puddle the bike gets washed when I return home after each ride. Otherwise every painted part I can reach (including the hubs) gets lightly wiped with a plush towel to removed the road dust, and the tires get wiped with a wet towel before bringing the bike inside the house. The Zonda and Ultra line bearing covers

do a perfect job of keeping out contaminants, but the standard Bullet's bearing covers leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Frito Bandito]

It astounds me how much gunk gets into wheel bearing sets - even on a fair weather only bike. And for many hubs, getting to the bearings is reasonably simple. I have no idea how much actual wattage is saved by a good bearing set cleaning but I can tell you that if makes you at least feel better. Sort of like a good car wax job. It may not run any better but it sure seems like it does!

I am sure it is in the low single digit watt area but just knowing they are clean has the Placebo effect thereby adding at least .5kph
Am I the only one who watches Youtube videos of bike wheel ratchet sounds? Initially I disliked loud hubs and tried to justify my dislike by thinking of the friction losses when freewheeling. But now I realize the benefits of informing people of your presence with a quick buzz instead of a small cow bell.

 

[Mathew Fy]

Hi all,

I have tubeless set up on 2 sets of wheels - Lightbicycle with DT Swiss 240 hubs and Velocity Aileron wheels. Both are set up as tubeless.

When I spin the Lightbicycle wheel by hand, the wheel stops spinning pretty quickly. I was pretty disappointed at its performance as I have heard how good DT Swiss hubs are supposedly. I then compared them to a Compagnolo Zonda wheelset which spinned much longer, but they were set up with inner tubes. When I tried to spin the Velocity Aileron wheels with tubeless setup, they also seem to stop spnning rather quickly. That had me scratch my head that I cannot be lucky enough to have two sets of expensive slow wheels. I just tested the new Q45's stock wheels with inner tube set up, and they spinned longer than the DT Swiss 240 and Velocity hubs. The Lightbicycle wheels have about 1500 mi. Velocity Aileron wheels have around 1000 mi. Q45 stock wheels have maybe 30 mi.

So now I am thinking... is it because both wheelsets are set up as tubeless with tubeless sealant sloshing around inside the tires when I spin the wheels by hand? Does the sealant's sloshing inside the tire cause additional inertia/drag so that the wheels get slowed down more quickly than with a inner tube setup? Under actual riding, I assume the sealant will coat inside the tires uniformly. Does that then negate the sloshing/slowing effect?

I guess I am just trying to figure out external factor that makes me slow... I should just ride more than once a week to get faster rather than blaming equipment.

Michael

I’m with you in thinking the increased rolling resistance with sealant only matters much at slower speeds when gravitational force exceeds centrifugal force. Bicycle Rolling Resistance looked into it and saw some effect, but not enough for me to try to get away with smaller volumes.
Another good read is from In the Know Cycling that suggests the extra weight “matters less.”
I’m back to tubeless now, having been with tubes during the mostly indoor season. But not before getting double pinch flats after hitting a bump.