Two Questions

benphyr

benphyr

Guru-me-not
To someone new to bike maintenance one could easily mistake original WD-40 and these fairly new bike products sold by and with the same brand name. They are not the same.
 
benphyr

benphyr

Guru-me-not
CHAIN LONGEVITY
I am convinced that the absolute most important single factor in chain longevity is this:

CLEAN.

Chain wear has one cause - FRICTION. That’s right, the same enemy that we try to steal watts from every day.

Chain parts diagram:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-compatibility

Here’s the logic: Chain friction can be broken down into at least these categories.

Chain itself - friction steals some of the energy being used to turn the cranks and transforms it into heat as the remainder is passed on to the cogs on the wheel. There is a very small amount of wear due to this friction on its own.
-sliding roller against cog/chainring
-sliding roller around rivet (pin)
-sliding inner plate against outer plate
-sliding inner plate against rivet

No matter what lubricant is used you want it to lubricate these areas. All of these are manufactured to be smooth surfaces to minimize friction.

However, the biggest source of friction is missing from the above list. Grime, dirt, sand, dirt, dust, metal filings from manufacturing of the chain, anything that can get into any of these areas then rubs against them with rough edges.

Dirt - increases the friction between these surfaces thereby stealing more power. But the bigger impact of dirt is an increase of wear caused by friction due to dirt that increases by orders of magnitude the mechanical wear as the parts get dirtier.

Enter lubricant. It lessens the friction of the system hopefully at all points identified above. However it also collects more dirt than would otherwise accumulate. Some lubricants do better at sticking to the metal of the chain, some do better at flushing out dirt. But they all are working in conditions where they are open to environment.

Lubricant plus dirt equals grinding paste that wears away at the parts much quicker.

So we relube to get things moving better. And it works a little because we’ve diluted the dirt. But we have only improved slightly from our dirty situation not anywhere near the original clean. And we have more lube to collect more dirt. Now we have enough dirt to make our hands looking like we fought with a grease gun in a gravel pit and lost.

SOLUTION = CLEAN

The amount of friction from metal on metal is small. The damage from dirt is great. Lubricant is necessary. So clean, clean, clean. And only relube once clean.

(It is also one of the reasons that many of us really like chain waxing. Wax picks up very little dirt. What little does get picked up is fairly likely to get removed when excess wax flakes off. And it further washes dirt out of the chain when the chain is sloshed in melted wax. The metal filings settle out and can be removed from the wax. Oh, And it is a great lubricant. )
 
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Frito Bandito

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
benphyr said:
CHAIN LONGEVITY
I am convinced that the absolute most important single factor in chain longevity is this:

CLEAN.

Chain wear has one cause - FRICTION. That’s right, the same enemy that we try to steal watts from every day.

Chain parts diagram:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-compatibility

Here’s the logic: Chain friction can be broken down into at least these categories.

Chain itself - friction steals some of the energy being used to turn the cranks and transforms it into heat as the remainder is passed on to the cogs on the wheel. There is a very small amount of wear due to this friction on its own.
-sliding roller against cog/chainring
-sliding roller around rivet (pin)
-sliding inner plate against outer plate
-sliding inner plate against rivet

No matter what lubricant is used you want it to lubricate these areas. All of these are manufactured to be smooth surfaces to minimize friction.

However, the biggest source of friction is missing from the above list. Grime, dirt, sand, dirt, dust, metal filings from manufacturing of the chain, anything that can get into any of these areas then rubs against them with rough edges.

Dirt - increases the friction between these surfaces thereby stealing more power. But the bigger impact of dirt is an increase of wear caused by friction due to dirt that increases by orders of magnitude the mechanical wear as the parts get dirtier.

Enter lubricant. It lessens the friction of the system hopefully at all points identified above. However it also collects more dirt than would otherwise accumulate. Some lubricants do better at sticking to the metal of the chain, some do better at flushing out dirt. But they all are working in conditions where they are open to environment.

Lubricant plus dirt equals grinding paste that wears away at the parts much quicker.

So we relube to get things moving better. And it works a little because we’ve diluted the dirt. But we have only improved slightly from our dirty situation not anywhere near the original clean. And we have more lube to collect more dirt. Now we have enough dirt to make our hands looking like we fought with a grease gun in a gravel pit and lost.

SOLUTION = CLEAN

The amount of friction from metal on metal is small. The damage from dirt is great. Lubricant is necessary. So clean, clean, clean. And only relube once clean.

(It is also one of the reasons that many of us really like chain waxing. Wax picks up very little dirt. What little does get picked up is fairly likely to get removed when excess wax flakes off. And it further washes dirt out of the chain when the chain is sloshed in melted wax. The metal filings settle out and can be removed from the wax. Oh, And it is a great lubricant. )
Click to expand...
Well written and I agree. Keeping dirt and stuff out of the important parts is key to longevity. I think wax does it even better than any lube as well.
 
benphyr

benphyr

Guru-me-not
I forgot to specifically include my original point for writing that post: your drivetrain lasts so long because it is kept so clean.
 
Frito Bandito

Frito Bandito

Zen MBB Master
benphyr said:
I forgot to specifically include my original point for writing that post: your drivetrain lasts so long because it is kept so clean.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is a huge contributing factor.

As far as waxing goes, I wonder how long wax actually stays on the metal surfaces. I worked on sport fishing boats for quite a while and used various waxes, protectants and cleaners on fiberglass, stainless and aluminum, and we had our own timeline for how often those were cleaned and applied. Chains are manufactured to very high tolerances, and the moving parts are very smooth already. so it would be interesting to see how well an unprotected chain works against a few of the best waxes and lubes.
 
paco1961

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
My chain maintenance protocol is about the same. I easily go 10,000 -15,000 miles between chain changes. Have tried all the fancy schmancy chain lubes but good ‘ol WD-40 works great. T-9 works even better.
 
D

david_kcmo

Active Member
velocio said:
Hi David,

My apologies if I'm assuming less bicycle wrenching experience than you have under your belt, but a simple answer for a simple question and all that ...

The chain on your Cruzbike is a standard chain in that the length of each pair of links is the standard used on virtually all derailleur equipped bikes across the globe (and most bikes w/o a derailleur). There is no "standard length" for the total length of the chain. A new chain will typically come long enough for most upright road/MTB/gravel/cyclocrosss/hybrid bikes and will likely also be long enough for your Cruzbike. Typically a new chain is shortened by cutting out links to optimize it's fit on a particular bike with a particular drivetrain. Bikes with long chainstays, large chainrings or a large biggest cog on the cassette may come out of the box short by a few links and need to be lengthened by adding some extra links, but that's not very common. The width of the chain is basically determined by the # of cogs in your drivetrain. If you're running 10 speeds, buy a 10s chain. If running 11 speeds, but 11s chain. And so on ...

On your Cruzbike the "chainstay" is the structural member that runs from the hub axle area to the bottom bracket area. It's an "open secret" that's not mentioned on the Cruzbike retail website that there are 3 different lengths of chainstay available, which you can think of as small, medium and large. Actually, I tend to think of them as medium, large and jumbo, since even the smallest one available isn't all that small. The options appear to cover folks 6'4"+, but not folks 5'4".

Cheers,

-Jack
Click to expand...
Thank you for the detailed answer!
 
D

david_kcmo

Active Member
benphyr said:
CHAIN LONGEVITY
I am convinced that the absolute most important single factor in chain longevity is this:

CLEAN.

Chain wear has one cause - FRICTION. That’s right, the same enemy that we try to steal watts from every day.

Chain parts diagram:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-compatibility

Here’s the logic: Chain friction can be broken down into at least these categories.

Chain itself - friction steals some of the energy being used to turn the cranks and transforms it into heat as the remainder is passed on to the cogs on the wheel. There is a very small amount of wear due to this friction on its own.
-sliding roller against cog/chainring
-sliding roller around rivet (pin)
-sliding inner plate against outer plate
-sliding inner plate against rivet

No matter what lubricant is used you want it to lubricate these areas. All of these are manufactured to be smooth surfaces to minimize friction.

However, the biggest source of friction is missing from the above list. Grime, dirt, sand, dirt, dust, metal filings from manufacturing of the chain, anything that can get into any of these areas then rubs against them with rough edges.

Dirt - increases the friction between these surfaces thereby stealing more power. But the bigger impact of dirt is an increase of wear caused by friction due to dirt that increases by orders of magnitude the mechanical wear as the parts get dirtier.

Enter lubricant. It lessens the friction of the system hopefully at all points identified above. However it also collects more dirt than would otherwise accumulate. Some lubricants do better at sticking to the metal of the chain, some do better at flushing out dirt. But they all are working in conditions where they are open to environment.

Lubricant plus dirt equals grinding paste that wears away at the parts much quicker.

So we relube to get things moving better. And it works a little because we’ve diluted the dirt. But we have only improved slightly from our dirty situation not anywhere near the original clean. And we have more lube to collect more dirt. Now we have enough dirt to make our hands looking like we fought with a grease gun in a gravel pit and lost.

SOLUTION = CLEAN

The amount of friction from metal on metal is small. The damage from dirt is great. Lubricant is necessary. So clean, clean, clean. And only relube once clean.

(It is also one of the reasons that many of us really like chain waxing. Wax picks up very little dirt. What little does get picked up is fairly likely to get removed when excess wax flakes off. And it further washes dirt out of the chain when the chain is sloshed in melted wax. The metal filings settle out and can be removed from the wax. Oh, And it is a great lubricant. )
Click to expand...
Thank you. Does this mean I can use my wife’s waxing kit?
 
paco1961

paco1961

Zen MBB Master
Just a catching up but a hearty ditto to @benphyr’s clean, clean, clean. I pull my chain about every 500 miles and thoroughly clean. Then lube w WD-40 about every 4th or 5th ride - maybe every 200 miles. A chain can run very quiet both when super clean and lightly lubed and also when very dirty but swimming in lube. Those two conditions are not equal to anything but the ears.
 
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