unfortunately still zig zaging going occasionally

[Gregory Carlsen]

All of this. For a tighter move while carrying some speed, like a fairly quick u-turn, I will stay clipped in but sit up for the turn. For slower speed tight maneuvers, such as moving through narrow entrances, around bollards, or through people on foot, I will shift into an easier, spinnable gear, unclip my left foot--the foot I put down at stops--and pedal with my right foot. If it's a mellow enough moment, I'll stay reclined. If it's a bit more complicated, I'll sit up too. Like so many things Cruzbike, this seems like a lot to remember at first, but after a while it becomes instinctual.

Well said. Pretty much exactly my approach as well

 

[IyhelM]

Ditto.

 

[Greg S]

Although I typically do what @chicorider said, I do tell myself “any maneuver you can do unclipped and sitting up you can also do clipped in and reclined”. Sometimes I even believe it

More seriously, I try to avoid unclipping and sitting up as much as I can as I think it’s a bit of a crutch since it feels “more comfortable”. Having said that, in “tricky” situations like those mentioned previously I do sometimes unclip and sit up.

I found that - for me - staying clipped in and reclined while doing tight turns was very uncomfortable at first but now I can do a pretty tight u-turn clipped in and pedaling through it.

All part of the learning process.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I rarely do 180s, but when it is on a 2-lane road I sit up and carry enough speed to get me through the turn to the right without pedaling. If it happens during a hard effort I will sometimes unclip the inside foot just in case I low side. There is an ascending 180 to the left that I will pedal through but it is a large enough turn that I don't have to sit up.

 

[SawyerTom]

Which bike are you on? On the V20 models in particular the fit is critical for leg length and also tiller length on the backside of the steer tube. Over extending the legs and having the bars too far away from you can result in hard handling. Also the position of the arms is critical to the overall fit/balance/control equation.

I have a video coming soon that will show this - but basically (V20 and V20C) you want to have your arms from shoulder to elbow in line with your body, and hands/wrists in a neutral posion to the bars. This is a good power position - often times people have the bart too far away from their body and they have "straight arms" (not enough tiller) and it is actually the opposite that you want.

Dear Robert, need your advise:


I have a "Cruzbike" still MBB made by handyman - which was I am starting to believe originally too small for me: I am 185 in hight, xseam 110 cm.
Over the year of ownership I shortened cranks (from 175 to +-150-145mm), prolonged the stem as my knees were hitting the handlebar, changed the seat distance and inline numerous times. At the moment I am at the point where:
knees does not reach handlebar by 3-4 cm - which is fine
gravel style bars are wide enough to keep the balance

The main issues I am facing: extreme torque steering . As it is MBB - every pedal stroke "swings" the front weel. I understand that its impossible to eliminate swinging completely, but present level makes may arms hurt after 40-50 km.
Also uphill climbing is extorting- even on my lowest gear I can barely make it into 7+ degree uphill, espacialy at the end of ride.
Would appreciate opinions of the more experienced riders what else could I do - try tuning up or just switch to RWD? TBH - I have a very attractive option on M5 CMR at the moment.
Attached some photos to illustrate my position on the bike at max and min leg angle.

Would be able to share few things from your multidecade years of experience?

Also being overly tense in the body can exacerbate "twitchiness" a lot. When I started on an old Vendetta many years ago - after having a decade on other recumbents and MTB's - I never thought I would go faster than 12 mph and I was very frustrated. As I relaxed and dialed in my fit and learned the nuances, it very quickly became the most stable and fastest bike I had in the stable. My personal mistake for a long time back then was trying so hard to set up my Vendetta to be as much like my older RANS F5 high racer as I could get it... "are" and "superman arms"... but that turned out to be a mistake.

If you post a pic of you from the side on the bike that would be great to help assess any fit issues/recommendations.

 

[IyhelM]

Looks like it is definitely too small for you. Your knee looks far too bent in the closer position.

But the main issue here in my opinion is a major design flaw: the steering column angle seems to be close to 50º. Cruzbikes have an angle around 70-75º, most European MBB designs around 60-65º and trade low speed agility for high speed stability (gross simplification). The lower the angle, the more the front triangle will tend to flop on either side. No wonder you’re having trouble compensating each pedal stroke with your arms!

After 6 months riding my first Cruzbike, an original Vendetta very flop-prone due to the heavy beam and long chainstay, I tried some homemade Speculoos and Sokhol bikes with a smaller steering angle; they were a pain to start but once launched were comfortable enough to ride. I’m afraid the geometry of your bike stretches things too far.

Addendum: beyond encouraging wheel flop, the steering angle combined with the short beam and chainstay and low seat (what size are those wheels?) forces the seat backwards, increasing the distance between pivot and gravity center which does not make for easy handling.

 

[SawyerTom]

Looks like it is definitely too small for you. Your knee looks far too bent in the closer position.

But the main issue here in my opinion is a major design flaw: the steering column angle seems to be close to 50º. Cruzbikes have an angle around 70-75º, most European MBB designs around 60-65º and trade low speed agility for high speed stability (gross simplification). The lower the angle, the more the front triangle will tend to flop on either side. No wonder you’re having trouble compensating each pedal stroke with your arms!

After 6 months riding my first Cruzbike, an original Vendetta very flop-prone due to the heavy beam and long chainstay, I tried some homemade Speculoos and Sokhol bikes with a smaller steering angle; they were a pain to start but once launched were comfortable enough to ride. I’m afraid the geometry of your bike stretches things too far.

Addendum: beyond encouraging wheel flop, the steering angle combined with the short beam and chainstay and low seat (what size are those wheels?) forces the seat backwards, increasing the distance between pivot and gravity center which does not make for easy handling.

Morning, front wheel is 26, rear one - 28. Could you be able to expand that part about angles in a bit simple way - read multiple times but still don't get it right I am affraid

 

[IyhelM]

See annotations on the attached pictures, pictures are worth a thousand words as we say in French (sorry, English is not my native language).
Angle between vertical and your steering column is ~53°; on a S40 it is roughly 72º, on my handcrafted carbon MBB it is 64º. The lower the angle, the more wheel flop prone the bike will be as the simple weight of the handlebars, beam, bottom bracket, crankset and your legs is pulling down as soon as it is not 100% straight and vertical.
It is not just a matter of steering axis angle, trail, fork offset, wheelbase (which impact the center of gravity) all play a role but your bike defo has low angle and high trail (not gonna try to measure it on misaligned photos…) compared to other proven stable designs.

Rough measurement of distance between front axle and the ‘cup’ of the seat, which gives a good indication of the center of mass position:
* your bike ~64 cm
* S40 ~60 cm
* Euro MBB ~55 cm
The farther the weight from the steering axis, the less control (that’s why most of us pull on bars and straighten up for tight corners).

The Wikipedia page on steering geometry.

Please note that I’m a no steering expert (I’m more of a hydraulic engineer…) so maybe I’m farting higher than my ass (another free French idiom, don’t thank me) but with my limited experience of MBB design, your bike does not look good.

 

[Robert Holler]

See annotations on the attached pictures, pictures are worth a thousand words as we say in French (sorry, English is not my native language).
Angle between vertical and your steering column is ~53°; on a S40 it is roughly 72º, on my handcrafted carbon MBB it is 64º. The lower the angle, the more wheel flop prone the bike will be as the simple weight of the handlebars, beam, bottom bracket, crankset and your legs is pulling down as soon as it is not 100% straight and vertical.
It is not just a matter of steering axis angle, trail, fork offset, wheelbase (which impact the center of gravity) all play a role but your bike defo has low angle and high trail (not gonna try to measure it on misaligned photos…) compared to other proven stable designs.

Rough measurement of distance between front axle and the ‘cup’ of the seat, which gives a good indication of the center of mass position:
* your bike ~64 cm
* S40 ~60 cm
* Euro MBB ~55 cm
The farther the weight from the steering axis, the less control (that’s why most of us pull on bars and straighten up for tight corners).

The Wikipedia page on steering geometry.

Please note that I’m a no steering expert (I’m more of a hydraulic engineer…) so maybe I’m farting higher than my ass (another free French idiom, don’t thank me) but with my limited experience of MBB design, your bike does not look good.

One of the main things I see above all else is the slack heatube angle will never allow for proper steering. We have spent well over a decade refining the head tube angle and a slack angle never worked, irregardless of any other consideration like weight distribution, etc.