v20 vs v20c Initial Look and Comparison

[cruzKurt]

You can get QR attachments for the thru axle wheels. Flo sent me a set when I ordered their latest that were default Thru axle and I wanted to use it on my V20 with QR

Wow, did not know that! I wonder if the QR adapters for my Wahoo Kickr will work?

 

[Karl42]

The curved slider makes a pretty big difference, but probably still not as much as your are reporting.
In my comparsion, my V20 (too of the slider just above the fork) is also about 1" lower than the V20c. This is beacuse I have the V20 setup in the lowest possible configuration for the slider and handlebars. The V20C does not have any adjustment like this so it is one size fits all. This may end up begin higher (as it my case since I am small), the same, or even better for others depending on their V20 setup.
For me, with all other things being equal, this makes the V20C slighly "less" aero than my V20.

I have shortened my fork stem as described at https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/vendetta-v20-build-diary-2016.10189/post-118807 to lower the handlebar as much as possible. Being forced into a different (and higher) handlebar position with the V20c would not be great.

I wonder if the V20c fork stem could also be shortened, if I then use the part that connects the stem and the top tube from the old V20, or have a custom part made?

@Robert Holler: is it possible that this could be changed for future versions of the bike, or as an optional spare part, so that the handlebar can be lowered just as much as with the old V20?

 

[Robert Holler]

I have shortened my fork stem as described at https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/vendetta-v20-build-diary-2016.10189/post-118807 to lower the handlebar as much as possible. Being forced into a different (and higher) handlebar position with the V20c would not be great.

I wonder if the V20c fork stem could also be shortened, if I then use the part that connects the stem and the top tube from the old V20, or have a custom part made?

@Robert Holler: is it possible that this could be changed for future versions of the bike, or as an optional spare part, so that the handlebar can be lowered just as much as with the old V20?

Given the design of the tube and the clamp and headset used - it is already as low as it can get. Maybe the thin spacer the sits there could be removed but that is like 2mm max. We do have a curved slider for it that would likely do the trick, or longer chain stay could also bring the bars lower.

 

[Karl42]

Given the design of the tube and the clamp and headset used - it is already as low as it can get. Maybe the thin spacer the sits there could be removed but that is like 2mm max. We do have a curved slider for it that would likely do the trick, or longer chain stay could also bring the bars lower.

I understand that the new clamp limits the possibility to shorten the fork stem.
My question was if a different privot clamp (like the older one) could be used instead of the new one. If the tube just comes out straight, shouldn't this be possible?

And if it isn't, could we request that this will be made possible again for future iterations of the bike?

 

[Robert Holler]

The new clamp is much thicker and broader than the old one - also not round. We would have to look at that - a redesign of it might be able to lower it a that point about 1cm or so... which would of course mean an even lower than that of the handlebars. It could also be made that it would fit the early V20C's - backward compatibility of a change in that part would be critical for sure.

 

[Karl42]

The new clamp is much thicker and broader than the old one - also not round. We would have to look at that - a redesign of it might be able to lower it a that point about 1cm or so... which would of course mean an even lower than that of the handlebars. It could also be made that it would fit the early V20C's - backward compatibility of a change in that part would be critical for sure.

Thanks Robert. A redesign of the pivot clamp that will allow cutting the steer tube to have the same handlebar position on the V20c as on the V20 would be great.

 

[Robert Holler]

Thanks Robert. A redesign of the pivot clamp that will allow cutting the steer tube to have the same handlebar position on the V20c as on the V20 would be great.

A redesign would only lower the entire tube a bit - there already is no space to cut anymore steer tube - on the V20C it is pre-cut to as short as it can get just about. Also I hesitate to have a CF fork that people can cut on their own - in my experience it usually doesn't turn out well as the steer tube gets splintered, etc when people use the wrong blade.

 

[Karl42]

A redesign would only lower the entire tube a bit - there already is no space to cut anymore steer tube - on the V20C it is pre-cut to as short as it can get just about.

Well if the steer tube is already short, there is no need to cut it. We would just need a smaller pivot clamp. Lowering the slider by 1cm at the clamp would probably be equivalent to the old V20 clamp in the medium or low position, so for me that would certainly be worth it.

 

[ratz]

It occurs to me that multiple upper booms with different curvatures would be more practical

I have the straight one on currently on the legacy v20. The difference between that and the curved one is a lot as I know the aero belly does not currently allow for the curved one.

Ship the bike with the straight one and document the drop for each option for upgrades.

For legacy riders document it relative to the last model so they can likely order the correct boom from the jump

Controls cost and create more options

 

[Bill Wightman]

This is obvious, but be sure that there is not a tiny little brake drag going on. That happened to me last night, I thought it was the heat, then when I had stopped for a minute there was the tiniest little mouse squeak at the rear brake. After I centered it by feel then all was well again.

 

[Karl42]

A redesign would only lower the entire tube a bit - there already is no space to cut anymore steer tube - on the V20C it is pre-cut to as short as it can get just about. Also I hesitate to have a CF fork that people can cut on their own - in my experience it usually doesn't turn out well as the steer tube gets splintered, etc when people use the wrong blade.

Hi @Robert Holler,
Would it be possible to rotate the current pivot clamp of the V20c by 180 degrees, so that the clamp that holds the boom is on the other side? If that is possible it would probably lower the handlebar a bit, right?
Any V20c owners here who could try this, and the effect it has on handlebar height?

 

[Henri]

You mean front-to-back? I can't look at my bike right now, but from internet pictures it looks like the boom would need to be very high in the front to still clear the steer tube / clamp. (In that situation the handle bars would already be as low as you could want them.)

 

[Karl42]

Yes, I mean front to back. Obviously this depends on the angle of the boom, so this will be different for each bike, depending on the height of the bottom bracket.

 

[Henri]

I just had a look at my bike. It seems the clamp can only articulate so much and I seem to be at the limit already with my fairly flat slider. Turning it around would mean it would have to "reach overhead", go from its current maybe 70° angle to 110° or so? Pretty sure it won't go to that angle.

By the way: I estimate that would be about 1.5cm lower, at the bar that would produce around 3cm, depending on the lengths.


Also please ignore the hoses and zip ties and everything. The bike is neither finished nor well maintained, I know.

 

[Henri]

If I wanted my bars lower, without paying for the curved slider (plus shipping to Germany in both our cases), I'd try something like this without much hesitation:

Aluminiumlegierung Fahrrad Lenker Vorbau Halterung Fahrrad Doppel Vorbau | eBay

Geeignet für den 31,8-mm-Kaliber-Lenker. Tolles Getriebezubehör zum Falten, Berg, Straße, -Fahrrad-Radfahren. Material: Aluminiumlegierung. Paket beinhaltet Es dauert nur 1 Minute. Wir möchten jedes Problem freundlich lösen.

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[Karl42]

I just had a look at my bike. It seems the clamp can only articulate so much and I seem to be at the limit already with my fairly flat slider. Turning it around would mean it would have to "reach overhead", go from its current maybe 70° angle to 110° or so? Pretty sure it won't go to that angle.

Thanks for the pictures.
It looks like the boom clamp could also be reversed, as it has less material on the other side that might impede the angle.
If that doesn't work, a more custom solution would be required, such as creating a version of the part of the pivot clamp that goes around the steering tube, and where the attachment for the boom clamp is lower. Or taking off material from the boom clamp to allow more angular rotation.

Lowering the handlebar with this thing you linked would destroy the direct line of force between the handlebar and the bottom bracket, so I would rather not do it like that.

Also, your top boom is already quite shallow, so there is little need to lower it. On my bike, the angle of the top tube is much steeper, so even a little height difference at the pivot clamp has a dramatic effect on the handlebar height.

 

[Henri]

Sounds like quite a bit of work. I'd probably rather get the curved slider or longer chain stays.
But if you fabricate new pivot clamps: I might take a higher one.

 

[Karl42]

At this point I'm still considering whether the V20c would actually be an upgrade over my V20, as it introduces several problems that I have already solved with the V20 and would need to find new solutions for.

 

[chicorider]

At this point I'm still considering whether the V20c would actually be an upgrade over my V20, as it introduces several problems that I have already solved with the V20 and would need to find new solutions for.

After seven years on a V20, I pulled the trigger on one of the first V20c's to come out. Like you, I had fiddled quite a lot with that V20 until I got the fit right for me (at not quite 5'5", I had to figure out how to make it a shorter person's bike). But I learned a lot with all that fiddling and trial and error, which made tailoring the V20c to my size not too hard.

Still, you raise a good question about the V20c being enough of an upgrade to make the switch over a well-fitting V20 worth it. I like the thru axles, the flat mount disc brake tabs, and the carbon fiber bits make the front end feel a little more unified. But after swapping over my Dura Ace parts, the V20c was not appreciably lighter than the V20, so no real gain there. My average speeds on the V20c are a smidge higher, but that could have to do with me putting deeper wheels (36mm to 48mm) on the V20c, and my feet rising three inches because the standard "medium" 19-inch chainstay is the shortest one on offer; I had been using the "short" 16-inch chainstay available for the V20. The three inch rise did not affect handling, fortunately, and the V20c's straight slider put my hands right where the V20's curved slider had them, but I do think the longer stay put my feet in a slightly more aero position. A happy fit accident that gave me a tiny speed boost. If I had put those deeper wheels and medium chainstay/straight slider on the V20, I probably would have had a very similar small kick in speed.

Anyway, I'm glad that I went for the V20c. The updates are nice. But... After having ridden both the V20 and V20c for thousands of miles I've come to see that the V20 is still a really, really good bike. For me, the riding experience on both, with fit being roughly equal, overlaps a lot. A lot.

 

[Robert Holler]

After seven years on a V20, I pulled the trigger on one of the first V20c's to come out. Like you, I had fiddled quite a lot with that V20 until I got the fit right for me (at not quite 5'5", I had to figure out how to make it a shorter person's bike). But I learned a lot with all that fiddling and trial and error, which made tailoring the V20c to my size not too hard.

Still, you raise a good question about the V20c being enough of an upgrade to make the switch over a well-fitting V20 worth it. I like the thru axles, the flat mount disc brake tabs, and the carbon fiber bits make the front end feel a little more unified. But after swapping over my Dura Ace parts, the V20c was not appreciably lighter than the V20, so no real gain there. My average speeds on the V20c are a smidge higher, but that could have to do with me putting deeper wheels (36mm to 48mm) on the V20c, and my feet rising three inches because the standard "medium" 19-inch chainstay is the shortest one on offer; I had been using the "short" 16-inch chainstay available for the V20. The three inch rise did not affect handling, fortunately, and the V20c's straight slider put my hands right where the V20's curved slider had them, but I do think the longer stay put my feet in a slightly more aero position. A happy fit accident that gave me a tiny speed boost. If I had put those deeper wheels and medium chainstay/straight slider on the V20, I probably would have had a very similar small kick in speed.

Anyway, I'm glad that I went for the V20c. The updates are nice. But... After having ridden both the V20 and V20c for thousands of miles I've come to see that the V20 is still a really, really good bike. For me, the riding experience on both, with fit being roughly equal, overlaps a lot. A lot.

This is a great and honest assessment I feel. It was part of the design question challenge for the V20c - can a bike that is already very optimized to its near peak be improved? The danger is always making a great thing worse than its own previous version, and just making changes for changes sake makes no sense in an industry where MOQ's are small, costs are very high in general, and even small changes to one thing can cascade into required changes elsewhere, where that then means new jig/tooling/CNC/drawings/prototype/shipping costs, etc etc. It's a delicate balance. I was happy on the V20c that we were able to maintain that balance.