Vendetta is a climbing machine

[psychling]

John said: "Oh, that's easy.

John said: "Oh, that's easy. We jump into the air to store some PE potential energy and land on the pedal to transmit that without any further effort, so we split up the activity into jump, then take off. where on a bent, you can't store up energy before starting off. It would be nice to."

If the leg didn't have a knee that bent John would be correct.

The leg bends at the knee, requiring substantially less power in `jumping' in order to position the leg over the pedal. Less jumping equals less effort to position the leg over the pedal.

On the downstroke the DF rider flexes leg muscle to gain as much advantage from the `dead drop' of the rest of his body.

That's easy.

 

[ak-tux]

Dan, 
... If the other pedal



Dan,

... If the other pedal arm is at the top of the downstroke where would your leg be? It would be on the top of the pedal arm because you're clipped in. You don't have a choice. If, as you say, you "pull it up on my clipless pedals" is that actually lifting the leg? Or is it merely "positioning it"?...

When I'am not clipped in? yes is it merely "positioning it". But when I am clipped in there is a slight pull I make to assist in the power input and a smoother pedal stroke. But this is not the borne of contention here. It is the work against gravity that I want to emphasize.


... Leaning the bike towards the second leg and shifting your weight over it isn't "pulling" or "lifting". And whatever you're doing with that leg it does not constitute expenditure of any more effort / power than what you do on the recumbent with that leg.


This is where I partly disagree: and we can agree to disagree here ;-). My argument is that in order for the DF to `drop' his weight on the pedal, he/she has to "ride" or step over the pedal in much the same way as climbing the stairs. He has to expend energy in order to put his weight in that position over the pedal. In other words he cannot 'drop' unless he was up in the first place. The torso and hips keep shifting from side to side as he does this. The hands on the handlebar stabilise and provide leverage.

..And here is the point: however the other leg is `cocked' and ready to `drop' on the DF or `push' on the recumbent ... the DF is dumping his body weight on the pedal. Whereas the recumbent is exclusively powering the next pedal stroke. ...

This part I agree. I'am merely trying to argue that for the DF rider to reach this 'power' position he/she has to expend some energy aginst gravity. He/she can't perpetually be 'droping' his weight. The physics just would not add up. For every 'drop' there is a point in the cycle of the pedalling that the torso lifts over the 'cocked' leg stepping on the pedal at the 12 O'clock position. It's just not too obvious becuase the cadence at which it all happens.

 

[MrSteve]

Body English

Along with the triangulated-stiff-short D.F. drivetrain,
motoring up hills like a standard D.F. bike on a Cruzbike is doable.

Everyone puts down power differently, so what is right for you IS right. Right for you.

Experienced Cruzbike riders steer with their legs;
newbies counter the wobbles that pedaling produces with their arms.
Some propulsive power is absorbed/wasted by countersteering/correcting the wobbling
induced by pedaling... if you're still counter-steering with either your legs or your arms, that is.

Experienced Cruzbike riders can put power down on the tarmac without wasting
any energy by countersteering... by utilising body english.
When the bike wants to fall to the right/turn right, the rider leans the bike to the left;
when the bike wants to fall to left/turn left, the rider leans the bike to the right.
In other words, the rider uses the bike to steer, rather than the body.

The body english used by the hammering Cruzbike rider looks remarkably like the
body english used by the hammering standard bike rider, because it is!

---

The last little hill I hammered up on my Sofrider, I was surprised to find a group
of D.F. riders stopped by the side of the road, just over the crest of the hill.
I was breathing very hard.
Someone quipped, "I hear that! You're out of breath!"
I cannot breathe hard and talk, dagnabbit, but,
I was still hammering away over the top of the hill
-bike yawing back and forth; front tyre sing-songing under power-
I did manage to accelerate away down the back of the hill, never to see those guys again!

These FWD bikes ought to rule the biking universe.
They're fast, they climb and they're comfortable.
But personally, I'm glad that I've got the only one
-so far-
in my neighbourhood!

-Steve

 

[KiwiGuy]

Question for Eric and other Vendetta 2.0 riders

Hi Eric

You've been busy recently with your new Vendetta 2.0. Thanks for all your posts - for someone seriously considering the Vendetta as his next bike, they've been extremely informative.

I'm wondering if you could provide your experience on your new Vendetta regarding descending and time trialling ability. Allow me to elaborate a little on that:

I've been riding a steel-framed Volae Club for the last 8 years. Great bike on flat ground, rolling country and downhill, but hopeless at climbing due to it's weight and flexy boom. The updated Vendetta really has my attention as a replacement due to it's climbing ability. I ride every week with df riders I can match or beat on a df, but they leave me well behind on the Volae in any climbing situation. I'm desparate to be back at the front uphill.

However I will be frank, the idea of the pedals connecting to the steering is worrying me. I'm willing to put in five to six months of effort to master that - which seems to be about where you are now. So I'd value your experience in this matter.

What I'm wondering about is:

#1. Compared to your previous bikes, what is the Vendetta like in time trialling situations? I'm picking it's fast because of the lower bottom bracket height compared to high-racer stick bikes. Can you confirm that my thinking is correct? I'm looking for a bike that is at least as fast as the Volae in time trialling situations, and preferably faster.

#2. What is the Vendetta like descending? I like to really crank it downhill because it is where recumbents have an advantage. I've heard tell of instability in that situation in earlier versions of the Vendetta, but I understand from John that this has been addressed in the 1.5 and 2.0 versions. In addition, posters on other forums claim that the instablity caused by pedals being attached to the steering column mean that it is dangerous to pedal hard downhill. Certainly the videos I've watched on YouTube always seem to show Vendetta riders coasting downhill without pedalling - not something I'm willing to tolerate.

What are you finding with the V2 in terms of descending stability and ability to really get on the gas in any downhill situation?

When you have a moment, I'd greatly appeciate hearing about what how your new Vendetta is working for you in these situations.

Kind regards... Blair

 

[Peder Torgersen]

I have the prior version of

I have the prior version of the Vendetta which I got last year.
I hope you don't mind if I make a comment even if my name isn't Eric?

I have experienced the wobbling riding downhill it took a lot of practice for me to be confident pedaling going fast down a hill.
I did pass a fast pace line in a race going down a hill a few weeks ago.

Climbing was for me easier on the Vendetta then it was on the other recumbents I have been on.

 

[Eric Winn]

II too like to really crank it downhill

Hi Blair,

I too like to really crank it downhill and have not found this to be an issue for me on either the Quest or the Vendetta.

I can certainly understand the issue that people experience as you can feel what they are talking about the first time you try it. I found it doesn't bother me and was cranking downhill on my very first ride. Granted, I was cautious based on the discussions about this and eased into the first try or two. I also found that what others have also reported about just stop pedaling and control easily returns to be true.

Don't get overly rambunctious until you are riding without using a lot of <i>unintended</i> arm and upper body inputs. When you get past that point you can start working on how quickly you begin accerlerating downhill. E.g. in general, you don't want to just madly start pedaling as you crest the rise but smoothly bring up your pedaling - which is probably true of any bike.

There is a fellow with a Volae that I see fairly often where I ride but so far we have been on different legs so we have just waved at each other as we pass going in opposite directions. The next time I see him, I'll try and ride with him and see how the Vendetta and I compare.

Truthfully, I'd like to stomp his butt in a ride as I tried to chat with him about recumbent recommendations back when I was riding my old Diamondback and he dropped a gear or two and took off rather rudely. Funny that he now likes to wave hello now that I'm riding a recumbent, eh?

As far as time trials, I have not really done any yet although I am planning on giving it a go this weekend. See my post about the 29th Michigan HPV Rally which happens to be near me.

I don't really count my 2013 Bike Sebring Century Race as a <i>race</i> as prior to then the longest I had ever ridden in my life at one go was about 48 miles. My strategy for this year was to ride to guuarantee I finish (sorry Dan) so I could have a basis to judge my performance to discover what I can do as I start pushing at my own boundaries.

I'll post about how this weekend turns out and that may help you with your questions but someone with a lot more experience with time trials and a Vendetta or Silvio can probably provide you more guidance in this respect.


-Eric

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi Blair,
A couple more

Hi Blair,

A couple more comments based off of my experiences:

Riding a MBB (moving bottom bracket) bike like the Vendetta and other Cruzbikes is different than any other bike (or unicycle ) I've ridden because both your arms and your legs are involved in the steering. This is very weird at first and I recommend that novices take their feet off of the pedals when things start to feel wonky so they can let their arms take over. For me, I found I didn't need to do this at all within the first 100 miles.

I've had both of my Cruzbikes at 40 mph and over pedaling madly going down hill. And I felt comfortable doing it (maybe not sane, but comfortable . But I rode probably several hundred miles before trying to push it past 30 mph.

Unlike many other recumbents, it's actually quite easy to ride a Cruzbike with no hands. While this (probably) isn't a useful skill in itself, learning to ride with no hands means you are teaching your body how to ride without pedal steer. This is very important if you really want to push it going down hills.

So:

1) Yes, the Vendetta or any other Cruzbike can really be hammered going down hill.

2) Don't try that until you are experienced on the bike.

Dan Fallon would wisely point out that (1) it makes more sense to spend your energy climbing hills and not decending them and (2) it's just not worth going stupid fast (my words, not his) on hills. He's right on both points and you have to decide for yourself what "stupid fast" is.

As far as how it compares to the Volae Club, you nailed it when you said the Club has issues climbing due to the flexible boom. This is where Cruzbikes in general and the Vendetta in particular really shine. Whether there are differences in the designs of the two bikes that change how much power you can produce on both, that's harder to say (although everything I've seen suggests that the Vendetta won't be losing out here for most people, either).

Cheers,
Charles

 

[psychling]

Max descending speed

When I first moved to the Prescott mountains I had the Silvio up to 48 mph on a long, 5 mile descent. Over the next several months I proceeded to fall off both the Silvio and Vendetta while being stupid in descents (e.g., doing 35 mph in a posted 20 mph descending switchback).

At the time Maria and I shared in conversation that she had never exceeded 38 mph in a descent.

Who holds at least 4 ultracycling world records? It ain't me

Although it may be wicked fun to scream down descents I don't do it anymore. Not even in a car.

Maybe I'm missing the rapturous joy of `riding the edge of the razor' risk factor.

I'll never forget watching a good friend, slamming down on the pedals of his DF on a 12.2 mile screaming descent. He exploded from the pack. As the road came out from behind the wind shadow of ridges on both sides he was 'slapped' off his bike by a crosswind. He was easily doing 40+ mph. Fortunate for him the wind came from his left and he tumbled into brush and gravel.

Can I do faster descents? Sure. How fast? I hit 60 mph coming down Mt. Pisgah on the Blue Ridge Parkway. (This, btw, was involuntary. It was on a DF and I was too scared to even reach for the brakes!)

So I don't really care if there are benefits or disadvantages to a particular cycling platform on the descents. In my experience, I've got enough broken bones, cracked helmets, patches of different colored skin from road rash, scars and thousands of dollars of medical, gear and clothing costs due to hastening gravity's effect for the `fun' of it.

 

[John Tolhurst]

I drive on the left of the

I drive on the left of the road, the steering wheel is on the right fo the car and I use the gear lever with the left hand. Now, I can and have driven in the US, no problem, all the controls are where they should be, except the gear lever (stick shift?), and I can easily remember that, right? Um, actually no. Or at least yes AND no. Yes, I remember that easily when things are going smoothly. But NO I forget where the lever is when something suddenly happens on the road in front of me and I want to brake and downshift. My stupid left arm whacks into the door, in search of a lever that ain't there.

I say all this because if your deep emergency reactions are also tuned to a different kind of bike, then you are in real danger of responding wrongly in an emergency. In most cases, its a quick realisation and correction, no harm done. When descending at high speed there is simply no room to remember "where the gear lever is". It must be fully automatic and correct even when not consciously thinking about it.

The highest risk scenario I know is to regularly swap between bikes and do fast descents. Because in those emergency fractions of a second, there is simply no time for the brain to check which side the lever is on - the arm will whack the door instead. That is, you may react incorrectly.

At 20 meters a second, 72 kph, 45 mph, you travel 10 meters or 33 feet! in half a second. And that is a LONG way to delay your reaction to a road event.

 

[KiwiGuy]

Thanks

Hi Peder, Eric, Charles and Dan.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Eric - interesting to hear about your experiences and your advise. I'd certainly be keen to read your report after this coming weekend. Particularly interested in how things go for you in the one-hour TT and the climb and coast down.

Charles, I don't do stupid, but I like going fast (within reason). The city I live in (Auckland, New Zealand) is situated on a volcanic field. So while there are lots of hills, they are mostly 2 minute to 10 minute climbs. We don't have the monster climbs and descents that Dan rides on. A 3 kilometre climb is a big hill here.

Kind regards... Blair

 

[Ian Smith]

Hills

Blair,

At least you have the South Island nearby. Great cycling through those mountains in winter. Or else you could go for a trip on the old road up to the Northlands for a bit extra. Whangerei isn't that far away. It should definitely be manageable on a CB.

Ian

 

[Romagjack]

I would compare the "hills"

I would compare the "hills" in Aukland as you call them to San Francisco. Can you say "Granny Gear"!

 

[bws308]

John T. said...

"I drive on the left of the road, the steering wheel is on the right ... all the controls are where they should be, except the gear lever"

John forgot to mention that the steering wheel control stalks are reversed! When visiting Australia, I often turned on the windshield wipers when trying to signal a right turn, and signaled a left turn a few times when it started raining.

I had no trouble with the left-handed gear shifter (I've driven manual trans long distances in the U.S. too). It did take me awhile to look left instead of right for the rearview mirror though it was obviously not outside the car, like John's imaginary gear shift lever.

Sorry for the detour... back to Eric's very nice Vendetta and the physics of zooming down (and sometimes up) hills!

 

[Jake]

Peddle Steer

I've never ridden either of the performance Cruzbikes, but I suggest that their narrow handlebars make it harder to control peddle steer as compared to Quest, Sofrider and the mountain bike style bars that are used on most conversions. Thus, hard peddling at speed might be hard for the learner rider.

Jake

 

[Charles.Plager]

I've never ridden either of

I've never ridden either of the performance Cruzbikes, but I suggest that their narrow handlebars make it harder to control peddle steer as compared to Quest, Sofrider and the mountain bike style bars that are used on most conversions. Thus, hard peddling at speed might be hard for the learner rider.

I think in the beginning, you're probably right. I'll also add that once the rider has mastered Cruzbiking, I don't think it would be an issue anymore.

 

[KiwiGuy]

South Island and hills

You're dead right Ian, there is some very good riding in the South Island. Last time we took a road trip around the South Island we took mountain bikes and had some absolutely superb riding.

This November I'm intending to go back down there to do the Source to Sea ride - http://www.sourcetosea.co.nz/ - a 100 mile ride from the centre of the South Island (Nelson Lakes) to the coast, following the course of the Buller River. Magnificent scenery, beautiful road. Must be up there as the best century ride you could do.

Four weeks later I'm planning on doing the 100 mile Cycle Challenge around Lake Taupo in the Central Plateau of the North Island - http://www.cyclechallenge.com/. The first 100 km is pure hills, then mostly flat going for the last 60 kms, except for a 3 km climb at the 140 km mark (our version of Heartbreak Hill). I've been around it a few times - fastest time was a 5hr 30mins ride time on a Specialized Roubaix. With the right training and on the right bike I could come close to cracking the 5hr mark I think. But on the Volae I'll be hard-pressed to crack 6hrs.

As for the hills here Romagjack, the volcanic cones have short steep pitches alright. Outside of them though, most of the hills are easily rideable in 34/24 on a df. But on a high-racer, if your bike doesn't have a stiff bottom bracket then you do end up calling for your granny. I've managed to get around that with my current bike to a big extent by running a 12-32 10-speed cassette.

The huge appeal of the Vendetta to me is it's stiff triangulated bottom bracket, reasonable weight, and decently reclined seat (without going stupid). It seems like it could deliver the climbing ability of a good aluminium framed df (like a CAAD10) with the aero of a good high-racer set-up for flat-land speed.

Kind regards... Blair

 

[Eric Winn]

I dunno Jake, my first

I dunno Jake, my first experience riding a Cruzbike was the Silvio , then the Quest, and now the Vendetta. I found controlling pedal steer easier on the Silvio and Vendetta.

I think it is something about the moment of inertia with how that straight boom comes back and the handlebars move more like a tiller. For me I find that easier to counter the pedal steer than the steering wheel like motion of the other configurations.


-Eric

 

[psychling]

Pedal steering

First, I can't do it. Not on any bike.

Second, to rationalize my lack of ability, isn't pedal steering just a interesting trick?

No. It's not. It's an illustration of how natural `driving' a FWD/MBB bike can become with a little practice.

Another thing I can't do. I can't jump into a pool of water without holding my nose.

I don't know why.

 

[thebean]

I have to Agee with Psychling

I have to Agee with Psychling that I don't think the Vendetta climbs better due to an aero advantage. I have done multiple tests on my Ti Aero, and a more upright seat position allows me to climb significantly better. The Silvio climbs well because of its upright 45 degree seat position AND because I can pull on the handlebars when climbing. Pulling on the handlebars simulates what I used to soon my DF bikes.

The FWD with a normal length chain has to increase efficiency. Any way, just my two cents!