Vendetta Newbie

[Vangelo]

My first post on this forum.....greetings to all from the UK!

With the aches & pains I suffer from my 3 score odd years I got into recumbents about 4 years ago & havent looked back since. I have 4 of them now & frequently scour the For Sale ads to see if anything interesting has surfaced. When the Vendedetta made an appearance, I had to have it.

Of course, this is like nothing I have ridden before. It took me a while to master RWD, but the Vendetta is a bitch. I crap myself everytime I ride it (parking lot at the moment). Now I think I may have had a bit of a breakthough.....thinking steering damper! I was looking at the Hopey unit, then I saw some members on the forum using bungee cords, I decided to have a go.

Here is my effort:

This has transformed the ride for me & given me alot more control. For the first time I think I understand how this bike likes to be ridden. Its totally opposite to a RWD FBB recumbent. I feel this bike's steering responds to lean, (unlike conventional bent) like riding a DF without hands. The feet & hands need to be pretty inert & not fighting each other. When I was able to relax & let the bike respond to the lean on its own it was pretty amazing. As I improve I should be able to lose the dampening, but for a beginner like me I found this modification essential.

 

[1happyreader]

owner manuals and videos and ride reports.

Looks like you already have a rather reclined recumbent parked next to your new vendetta.

IMO You should however try and view the vendetta as something different to learn NOT just another bike.

A unicycle has a round wheel and pedals but it is NOT a bike.

that said, check out page 13 of the http://cruzbike.com/CruzbikeOwnersManualRevP.pdf there are drills and ideas that will speed your learning curve. I wish I had been more diligent in my parking lot practice.

but heh.... why are you pedaling ????? spend some time coasting and getting a feel for how that front end feels.

If the front end seems to have a mind of its own consider pushing hard against both handle bars in an attempt to LOCK the bike into one solid piece during slow speed practice.

Later when you moving more normally you will relax and be able ride with light or no palm pressure or arm pulling unless you just really want to. LOL

there are also beginning riding tips videos on several of the bike's pages the cruzbike site.

try and be a kid learning a new toy ,, it will pay off.

 

[mickmull]

Hey Vangelo - looks like you

Hey Vangelo - looks like you beat me to Neil's Vendetta. Was just trying to sort out a weekend to get down there from Yorkshire. Yes Neil did say that it would take a while to master. Seems like you are well on the way! So keep us all posted with how you get on. Would love to hear a comparison with some of the other machines that you have ridden. Best Mick

 

[Vangelo]

Mick, this is a stunning

Mick, this is a stunning machine & wonderful condition, but not sure its going to be for me. I am giving it a go & have not fallen off yet.....close but managed to get my feet down in time! As Neil said, its not for the faint-hearted.

There is alot written on how to ride this thing, but really its a question of feel, bonding & understanding which aint quite happening yet, so I may well be re-advertising the bike. So far I am understanding this bike needs to be treated gently & not guided with a heavy hand. Possibly coming from a RWD recumbent is a disadvantage .......................

 

[John Tolhurst]

Go back to the basics, roll,

Go back to the basics, roll, steer, gentle pedaling, and with open palms so you can feel what its telling you. The training exercises are designed to let you bring a fresh approach. A fresh approach for a fresh bike!

 

[ratz]

Here's the script we use when

Here's the script we use when people come to ride the Quests and see if it's for them. We've refined this over a bunch of people this summer; we are at 20 riders as of August; Some family, some friends, and a good number of former strangers.

If doing this on a Silvio or a Vendetta either sit up for all of these steps or put something behind you back to raise the angle to at least 40 degrees. It's easier to train your hands and feet if you aren't also training your balance. We keep all the quests set at 43 degrees and people learn pretty easy; especially bent riders. The laying back will come easier as a secondary skill. For example going from Silvio 27 degree to Vendetta 20 degrees took me only two full rides; but it was darn shaking for me at first; the lower you go the more balance you have to adjust to; so just take that out of the equation; riding sitting up is a great skill that you will want for intersection and going up step hills, so use it for your learning.

So......


1) Find a parking lot with about a 1-2% pitch. Go to the high end.

2) Do 5 coast down with your feet up in the air spread eagle. Yeah it sounds stupid; but get them as high as you can. This will help you learn the glide and slide mounting trick. Do at least 5, not 1, not 2, at least 5.

3) Do 2 coast downs with you feet just resting on the pedals Do not pedal; your ego will want to, don't do it.

4) Do 3 coast down with you feet just resting on the pedals and steer just a touch using only your foot pressure (this is harder than it sounds; but you need to learn what it feels like) Again resist the urge to pedal the best students wait. You are trying to teach the brain the subtle things.

5) Start doing runs with pedaling 5 or 6 minimum. Straight lines; down and back up the incline. Avoid turning; stop the bike; turn it 180 and go the other direction.

6) Start doing shallow turns; when you turn "DROP" your outside shoulder; it should feel like a reverse shrug; just relax you shoulder muscle so the shoulder drops. This is the same thing you do on racing motorcycles and snowmobiles you have to lean OUT ever so slightly on the turn; this is the opposite of what you do on a road bike. This is the #1 thing DF riders do wrong; they want to lean in to the turn; and coast; at which point they start to fall into the ground. Took watching several struggle to figure that out. This was a hard learned lesson that Bill paid for with his ankle injury. Those that came later owe him one for that.

7) After you can do the shoulder drop; do some pedaling figure-8's. Start big and work smaller; go Both directions; one side will be way easier that the other; that is you dominate side. Make note if it's easier to go left or right. Pedal through the turns if you feel tipping. This is the first bike you've had that you can pedal through any turn. You may have to slam a foot down on your weak direction the first few times.

8 ) Now consider your #7 results. If you turn left and it feels like you will fall into the ground then your right foot is dominate; if you feel like when you turn right you will fall into the ground then you left foot is dominate. If you feel like you are going to fall doing both you are a freak and need to continue practicing #7. Using your dominate foot Practice your up hill starts using this technique

http://cruzbike.com/looking-riding-tips-toe-clips-or-snap-shoes-general-steering-and-uphilldownhill-riding#comment-27416

After you can do the hill starts you are ready for riding out of the parking lot.

 

[mickmull]

Hey Vangelo - if you struggle

Hey Vangelo - if you struggle then let me know and give me first dibs!

I guess the leap from RWD to a MBB is not easy - where you can just hose in power on a RWD it will take coordination on a MBB. No joke then when they say it takes about 6 months to master!

I found on my Windcheetah that I had to 'mash' to get power in (especially uphill), but with such a stable trike platform you can get away with that. Also the Windcheetah completely isolated the upper body, everything was done with legs.

Looking through all the advice (hey I haven't even seen one in the flesh let alone ridden one) it seems that its all about small power inputs and countersteering. I ride a motorbike and countersteer naturally - but I can't explain it!

Keep plugging on - I'm hoping that you'll crack it! If you don't I'm hoping that you live closer to Yorkshire than Neil did!

best

mick

 

[Eric Winn]

Cruzbikes are NOT hard to

Cruzbikes are NOT hard to learn to ride if you follow the advice of Kim Tolhurst and those steps above by Bob Pankratz. If you do, you can start feeling comfortable with the platform after about 30 minutes. Not proficient. Comfortable.

There are some people that have more issues with balance. Some is probably due to over-thinking and trying to ride with reflexes built for other types of bikes. There are some however, who just don't balance very well, especially on very reclined recumbents like the Vendetta. These will likely have the same issue on any recumbent with this low a seat recline. My guess is most of those can probably still learn to ride but it will take longer. Pressing your entire back side into the seat and holding your torso and head still while riding will help a lot as when you are reclined at this height off the ground very small movements while riding can cause you to veer. Lifting only your head off the headrest can help in some cases but might feel more shaky in others. Once you are past comfortable and into proficient, this is actually pretty cool as you can make steering adjustments like Bob describes in #6 above and by tilting your head.

There may be a remaining few who actually have some vestibular balance related issues (vertigo or near vertigo) that likely won't be overcome by training and desire.

Another thing about #6. Despite Bob's good advice above I absolutely LOVE leaning into the turns so I'm banking through them. BUT, I don't look down and close to my front wheel as that will tend to make you continue on further in and fall over. I also keep power applied to the pedals and in my case I'm typically accelerating through turns. This is great fun but care must be taken on the road surface and your speed as instead of falling over you could instead wash out from sliding on crap on the road or just losing grip on your tires from too much speed and too much lean.

Disclaimer: I was a competitive gymnast and springboard diver ages ago during high school so I have very good balance and very good geospatial awareness of where my body is at all kinds of weird angles and orientations while spinning and rotating through more then one axis so my advice may be highly colored by my personal experience.

-Eric

 

[Vangelo]

Appreciate all the help

Appreciate all the help everyone is trying to give, but this is something I will have to learn myself through my mistakes. I have done/am doing the parking lot thing & have ridden up & down a gentle incline. I can do figure of 8's, start & stop etc. It just doesnt feel normal or as natural as my other recumbents & whether I am inclined to stick with it long enough to gain the confidence is the main decision.

I am going to go ahead & fit a Hopey damper. I think this will stabilise the front end & make riding easier.

Mick....if this dont work out, you have first dibs, I promise!

 

[Robert Holler]

Lots of great advice above.

Lots of great advice above. It comes with time. As you noticed, once you decide to work WITH the bike and not "fight" the steering it falls into place.

 

[mickmull]

Reminds me of trying

Reminds me of trying (emphasis on trying) to lean to ride a unicycle. At first you think that its not actually possible, then you think it may be possible, but still can't do it!

First time I tried a tiller steer bike I was all over the place and needed cat like reactions to prevent a spill, even the Windcheetah found itself on two wheels from time to time (what's worse is that it had an offset rear wheel making it more stable in one direction over the other)

Sounds like you are getting along ok though - I guess its starting to get those long steady miles in and being able to relax that's next.

Hope the 'hurricane' that they are predicting misses you by and you can hit the supermarket carparks!

best

Mick

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Robert said it in a nutshell

Robert said it in a nutshell "As you noticed, once you decide to work WITH the bike and not "fight" the steering it falls into place".

Funny thing is for me, now I can't ride a non MBB bike, they feel too awkward and weird now.

 

[Lief]

riding a non-mbb

Rick,

That reminds me - the first time I jumped on my old Lightning Thunderbolt (tiller steer - rwd) after putting about 12K miles on my Silvio it scared the crap outta me!

I nearly wrecked the first time I applied power and only with herculean restraint was I able to even maneuver through the neighborhood.

I recently gave it to my uncle (just collecting dust and taking up space for my finer bikes) and he said "I don't understand why you would want to part with this?"

I said something along the lines of "That thing's a deathtrap! It doesn't even steer straight!"

Yeah - I'm (probably) MBB for life for sure.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Yeah, I'm an MBB lifer too!

Yeah, I'm an MBB lifer too!

 

[MrSteve]

Imagine....

Non-MBB bikes are fun to ride, after you've trained your brain to ride your MBB bike.
It's fun because it's a challenge.
Challenges are fun. Remember what fun it was to learn to ride your Cruzbike?
It's helpful to ride a non-MBB occasionally, as it shows you that you are not as relaxed
on your bicycle as you think you are.

When you can hop onto either your MBB or a non-MBB bike and pedal comfortably,
you'll know that you've 'arrived'.

Now, imagine hopping onto a motorcycle after having ridden nothing but the Cruzbike
?for a few years.
Most motorcycles are built like Diamond Frame bikes: the steering geometry is similar.
When I test-rode my brother in law's motorcycle, the machine wobbled under me.
I was "counter steering."
It took me a mile or so to re-learn how to relax on top of a motorcycle,
to disengage my MBB brain and allow the motorcycle to track true!

Imagine my surprise.
After all, I'd been a professional motorcycle test rider,
paid to ride tens of thousands of miles on a wide variety of motorcycles.

That was more than a few years ago.
Now, I'm able to ride a non-MBB bike pretty smoothly.
No wobbles.

Relax!

-Steve

 

[mickmull]

Interesting stuff there

Interesting stuff there Steve. Wouldn't mind hearing of some of your bike tests but I guess that's another forum!

On my motorbike I find that (now I've decided to notice anyhow) that at low speeds that steering would be traditional - as in turn bars towards the direction of turn, then as the speed increases the counter steering happens seamlessly and automatically.

Is there a 'transition' on a cruzbike? When you get up to speed does the handling really change? I expect that with gyroscopic influences that stability will come, plus the ability of the bike to move through a greater range with smaller movements.

 

[MrSteve]

Transitions Between Slow And Fast Steering?

Your experience will be different, because you're unique.
You are you.

But, for what it's worth...:

There is only one real similarity that is shared by single-track, two-wheeled
vehicles: the two wheels!

Motorcycles are heavy, powered by engines, have big tyres, big brakes, big frames,
big suspensions and so, motorcycles are different.

When you compare bicycles to motorcycles -even MBB bikes that can be leg-steered- bikes are light, un-powered, have tiny tyres, minimal frames and have rudimentary suspensions.

I can offer a little advice about transitions between low-high speed steering.
Let it happen.
(Bicycles are so light that counter-steering and other phenomena are very, very subtle... compared to any motorcycle I know.)
Your chassis does a great job of tracking through any bend, in any corner, at any speed,
if you allow it to do so.
Look through the corner, ride smoothly and relax.

If you're moving too fast for conditions, you risk a crash.
If you cannot see the exit of your corner, consider slowing down.
If you're racing, well, you accept the risks.

Experiment with steering, starts and stops, shifting up and down in a controlled, car-free, pedestrian-free, pet-free open area.
Like an empty, quiet parking lot.

That's what I always do with any new vehicle:
test ride it in a controlled environment.

Experience is the best teacher, so, go get some!

-Steve

 

[Vangelo]

Thanks to everyone for the

Thanks to everyone for the comments & advice. There is a big difference between reading & doing....& I have been busy doing.


I can offer a little advice about transitions between low-high speed steering.
Let it happen.
(Bicycles are so light that counter-steering and other phenomena are very, very subtle... compared to any motorcycle I know.)
Your chassis does a great job of tracking through any bend, in any corner, at any speed,
if you allow it to do so.
Look through the corner, ride smoothly and relax.
If you're moving too fast for conditions, you risk a crash.
If you cannot see the exit of your corner, consider slowing down.
If you're racing, well, you accept the risks.

Thanks Steve. This is what I have discovered. I have been in the parking lot now for about 5 session & am more relaxed & understand more how the bike responds. The above sums it up....& its so different from my other RWD recumbents. Going back on them after the V I'm shaking all over the place! So weird!

What has also helped is fitting the bike out to my personal taste. I didnt like the original handlebars way out arms stretched having been used to the hamster position close to my chest. After several handlebars & configurations I settled on this:

Suits me & I feel more in control. I can stretch my arms out on the long open road on the bar ends if I wish which is next on my todo list

 

[Vangelo]

Vendetta for sale

Ventured out on the road yesterday for the first & last time. Decided not for me.

If anyone in the UK is interested in the purchase of a near mint Vendetta 1.5 please PM me..............price will be around the £1650 mark.

 

[Gromit]

Where in the UK are you based?

Vangelo

Where in the UK are you based?