Vendetta on rollers instead of a trainer?

Charles.Plager

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi Bill,
One more comment

Hi Bill,

One more comment (and apparently it's a long one):

Depending on what you are used to riding, getting trainer time will help you get used to pedalling a Cruzbike (which quite different if you've never ridden a SWB bike). Once area where I'm likely to get disagreement: I think pedal steer is minimized the faster you spin. If you are not a spinner, but a masher, clipping in to a Cruzbike in a trainer can help you get used to spinning. This is something that I think would help you get up and riding faster.

Finally, if you haven't already, make sure you look at Kim's page about riding a Cruzbike. This is what I did before riding and found it very useful. (You can read about my experiences here).

When you first start riding a Cruzbike off the trainer, I recommend riding unclipped at first. Indeed, the best advice I can give is that when you're starting out and things start goin' south , taking your feet off the pedals will let you regain control.

That being said, as soon as you get comfortable, I would not want to ride a Cruzbike without being clipped in. Having my feet firmly attached gives me a lot more control than without.

Cheers,
Charles
 
John Tolhurst

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
... pedal steer is minimized

... pedal steer is minimized the faster you spin ...

That is correct.

Also, the skill for smooth riding might be assimilated for a particular cadence, yet might still be being learnt for other cadences.
 
W

WOB

Member
Further Disclosure

Thanks Charles*,

I actually have been riding a SWB RANS Rocket for over a year; and had an opportunity to do two short quarter-mile loops on a Q recently. Pleased to say I was able to start peddling almost immediately, perform 180 turns and work my way back up the slight incline.

I'd tend to agree that spinning would seem likely to minimize pedal steel - never really got to that point on the test ride ! [I use Powergrips on the Rocket as a compromise between bare pedals & clip-ins].

Actually, it was while reading a retrospect on the Rocket in an old issue of "Recumbent Cyclist News" that I stumbled upon an extensive review of SportCrafters rollers for honing technique in the off season.

Which brings me back to Pete's latest remarks on this thread:

"There are a lot of trainers (more historicaly than current) that used a fork stand as a primary means of holding up a diamond bike. Consider a few things about this arrangement:

a) a diamond bike fork is pretty delicate compared the the back end of the Quest.
b) A diamond bike rider's center of gravity is much higher than on a recumbent
c) a diamond bike rider will often get out of the saddle for a hard interval, throwing the center of gravity off side-side.

I don't see these conditions for a recumbent rider.. first your center of gravity is much lower, which keeps the torque load at the skewer lower, and you're not likely to get out of the saddle for an interval. So all in all, it is my opinion and speculation that you're better off with a rear or front fork-mounted recumbent than on a diamond bike.

I completely agree with opinions on the difficulty of riding the rollers.... But frankly I have no idea. How difficult would you think a tandem might be on rollers? Your first instinct is more difficult, right? Would it surprise you that it's not? In fact it's much easier? My wife and I ride/race a tandem mountain bike and have spent many miles on a road tandem. So I built a tandem roller and tried it out... to find out that it was MUCH easier than a shorter bike.

I don't know if that helps or confuses... your choice ?"

Guess I'm tempted to give 'em a go - the earlier Tacx video demonstrates that it can be done with all three bike types. I'm intrigued to emulate that feat [and also less enthusiastic about a trainer that one must (always) attach the bike to rigidly]...

-Bill

*an even lengthier reply:)
 
Charles.Plager

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi Bill,
People can

Hi Bill,

People can definitely ride Cruzbikes on rollers (as nicely demonstrated by the video linked in the 2nd entry above) and so I'd say there are no major show stoppers. If you're leaning towards the Tacx rollers, I haven't seen anything here that suggests it won't work for you.

Cheers,
Charles

p.s. I am still not convinced that either a trainer or rollers will really help somebody acclimate to riding a Cruzbike (this comment is really for those who read this thread years from now). I certainly don't think rollers are going to be any worse in learning how to ride a Cruzbike than a trainer and, given that you can already ride one, I think you're golden. And, most importantly, either a trainer or rollers will let you get exercise on a bike in the winter, so I think they're a great thing.
 
W

WOB

Member
Thank you, Charles!
Seems as

Thank you, Charles!

Seems as though reviews on the Tacx Galaxia are mixed.

I'm really leaning toward SportCrafters. Aside from a good reputation, it's a hometown product from my old stomping grounds. And according to Bryan Ball's review [link in a prior post], their progressive resistance drum is something one can stomp on as well !

Even better, Pete is offering a great deal on PVC rollers at the moment.

Heck, you could even get the mini-rollers for your unicycle (surely I jest...)
 
W

WOB

Member
Beauty, that! Relieved to see

Beauty, that! Relieved to see the young lad only pitches forward - probably preferable to procure a plethora of padding prior to proceeding with pedaling...
embaressed_smile.gif
 
Eric Winn

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
That was a hoot!
I saw two

That was a hoot!

I saw two people riding Penny Farthings around the lake near me this summer. Wonder if you could configure rollers to work with those?

tounge_smile.gif


I did configure my rollers once to try my Mobiky on them. It was barely ridable. I think more because the tires are pretty low pressure, along with the 12 inch wheels made it tend to really drag/stick on the rollers.

-Eric
 
W

WOB

Member
Roller Surge

Season's Greetings everyone! Pete of SportCrafters recently conveyed some new developments as follows:

"I've been working with another athlete with a recumbent 2-wheel on a roller, and he's reporting the same problem that we've been working on with a few handcycles on our stationary trainer.

Essentially, it's a natural frequency "surging" caused by your unique orientation on a recumbent, especially if you're not clipped in. There is a small movement of your center of gravity fore-aft with each pedal stroke. Since the motion of your legs on a upright bike is vertical, the same problem does not exist.
If that fore-aft frequency of your cadence happens to match the spring-mass natural frequency of your tire compression against the rear roller drums (the spring) and your total weight (you+thebike = the mass) then you get into a surging problem. Not all cyclists have this problem, and until yesterday I'd never heard of it as it relates to recumbents on rollers, but it makes sense now that it's reported to me.
We've developed a solution for the handcycle trainers (as of last week). We "uncouple" the "spring" from it's ground by essentially putting wheels on the legs. The actual execution is a little cleaner, but you get the idea.

This is NOT the same as turning the rollers into an "E-motion" or "Inside Ride" roller.. in fact we tested that particular execution (and several other embodiments that are similar) and it makes matters worse because the centering springs, bungees and even a pendulum system add another spring to the system that forces more severe instability. It's critical that the roller be allowed to float freely.

Not saying you'll have that problem... again it's an issue of matching natural frequencies. There are a lot of variables that affect it; tire compressibility (pressure), cradle width, your mass, etc. Likewise it's only been a few handcyclists that report the problem as well.

So it will be interesting to test it out!"

I may have an opportunity to visit SportCrafters as part of our holiday travel circuit and get a first-hand impression of the effect he's describing and will report back if so.

Until then, Happy Holidays to all - Bill
 
psychling

psychling

Well-Known Member
Training for balance

Rollers. Years ago I trained on rollers (DF) and found that they `trained' my ability to maintain balance on a slippery surface. But they had absolutely no benefit to my real goals with indoor trainers: increase cardiopulmonary capacity, build power and improve endurance. At that time I simply sold the rollers and moved to a resistance platform.

I have recently added a post to my blog: `Indoor Training: Is It Harder?'

Now that I am `retired' (what a joke!) I have time to meet more neighbors and spend time with them. The community in which I live has a `common house' that we jointly fund and use for many good purposes. When we moved here last year I brought all my indoor training equipment and set it up in a designated room in the `common house.' My motives were self-interest and communitarian. That is, I didn't want to take up space in my own house with this armamentarium of equipment but wanted it to be nearby and free to use.

The hundred or so community neighbors were delighted to have the equipment: Concept2 indoor rower, Solex Elliptical, indoor bicycle on a wind-resistance trainer, a set of free weights, and a bunch of mats, etc. They wanted assistance in learning how best to use the equipment.

We have a lot of kids and their working parents here. The kids don't use the stuff. Their parents use it irregularly when time permits. But the older, often semi- or fully retired folks have a real interest in the equipment.

None of the community users are athletes. They use the equipment for 30 minutes every other day or so. They asked me for an `orientation' to the equipment and if I'd be the community person available for instruction, etc....

So now I'm back to the issue of `balance' after all these years.

As folks age their parts start to give them trouble. Unless there is deliberate and disciplined attention to working to stay fit we will all just seize up and become sedentary. And that is the very definition of what `getting old' to 99% of the us. That is, an increasingly submissive giving in to predictable physical impediments. ( For some, getting older affords them -- FINALLY -- the excuse to become helpless, dependent and objects of sympathy that they've been looking for all their life).

The `getting old' spiral cycle is as follows:

  1. Ouch! that hurts!

  2. I won't do THAT again.

  3. Next time I have to get up to do something I won't do it because it hurts.

  4. I sit more.

  5. I move less.

  6. I become known to myself as `not able.'

  7. I eat more.

  8. I drink more.

  9. I shuffle around more.

  10. I lose fitness (muscle mass, flexibility, cardiovascular capacity, stamina).

  11. My body decides on it's own that I want to slowly `die' down.

  12. I get sick.

  13. I take `fake it' pills (that trick my organs into not dieing so fast).

  14. I get fat.

  15. Now that I'm fat it's even harder to move!
-----

  1. Ouch! That hurts! ....

And so the descent into the cycle of decrepitude continues. It's a `psychology' of voluntary withdrawal from life. And the emotional anxiety it generates within us requires effort to deal with.

In otherwords, `getting old' and decrepit is hard work and we earn it every step of the way! It is NOT a simple function of the passage of time. We `choose' decrepitude.

Aging is not for sissies. It requires clear-headed vigilance and a more mature commitment than just coasting along on the inertia that youth gives us. (O.K. I think being young is for sissies! There. I said it.)

Aging isn't about getting weak and fragile. It's an opportunity to exploit for enormousely satisfying expression! Goals. Methods. Discipline. Consistency. The strength to persist through predictable setbacks. You just can't ask for anything better.

So, when I orient and `coach' the older neighbors I tell them that ... they should get the hell out of the exercise room and use the immensely challenging terrain around us. BUT, when they do need to use the indoor equipment their focus should be on:
building balance, cardiovascular capacity, muscle and stamina.

So ... indoor training on rollers is good for aging folks because it trains our balance and vestibular system. Same with the elliptical. Get on the elliptical and don't use your hands or arms. Just use your legs. You'll find that you'll need all the micromuscles in your legs and core to stay balanced and upright while your `ellipting' along. The indoor rower adds upper body strength, `lubricates' and `flexibilizes' the feet, ankles, knees, hips, core, lower back, chest, hands, wrists, elbows, shoulders, arms.

So .. rollers are for balance. Mag or wind resistance indoor trainers are for cardiovascular capacity, stamina, power and endurance.

I think I'll use this on my blog.

O.K. I'm leaving now. I'm putting you all in charge while I'm gone.
 
B

BobD

Well-Known Member
A wonderful post on the


A wonderful post on the choices we all have....and the possibilities we create for ourselves....about balance in life.....
Great stuff here Dan!
Bob
 
Eric Winn

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
@Dan,
If rollers are

@Dan,

If rollers are primarily to develop balance, then why am I drenched with sweat when I finish? Or is it because I'm getting older?
regular_smile.gif


Did the rollers again for about an hour and a half yesterday and about an hour today - so far 5 days in a row of at least an hour for each session.

Tried a bit of higher gears and faster cadence along with slower cadence and taking one hand off for a brief period and then alternating with the other hand The hand off exercise is to simulate traffic hand signals, waving at people, and shaking off the periodic carpal tunnel tingles.

I've also been trying to deal with the issue when you wiggle your bum and/or back around while riding (both street and rollers) where it makes the bike very squirrelly under you and unstable. I'm trying to practice wiggling/repositioning to get better control in this scenario.

Oddly, this also reminded me of shopping carts in the UK where all 4 castor wheels freely rotate compared to the ones in the US where the back wheels are fixed and only the front wheels rotate. First time I went shopping in the UK with a cart I went veering off at angles instead of going in a straight line fish tailing back and forth until I got the hang of it - but I still tended to tack back and forth down the aisles - grin.

-Eric
 
psychling

psychling

Well-Known Member
Quote:
"@Dan,
If rollers are

Quote:

"@Dan,

If rollers are primarily to develop balance, then why am I drenched with sweat when I finish? Or is it because I'm getting older?"

Terror?

Overdressed?

If sweating were a measure of performance I'd be a) olympic, b) aquatic.

Did you check your shorts afterwords?

---

Sometimes when I read what Cirque de Soleil (sp?) tricks folks try to do on bikes ... I don't get it.

Come out my way and try to hold your line in a 30 mph crosswind (with strong gusts) while screaming down a 6% stock-straight glass smooth road. That's a trick that has a purpose to it.
 
Eric Winn

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
I ordered a Wahoo KICKR

I ordered a Wahoo KICKR trainer on 12 Mar 2013 through the DCRainmaker Review page using Ray's partnership with Clever Training to get a 10% discount and free shipping. See the order link at the bottom of the review for info on ordering and how to get the discount. This saved me $140.

I just talked to Clever Training and my KICKR is being boxed up for shipping today so I should see it in 5-7 days or so.

I'm still waiting on my Vendetta so once I get the two products together, I'll post a photo review of how to connect the Vendetta to the KICKR for all who are interested. You can read the DCRainmaker Review for the functional details - it is one really long, really comprehensive review!

-Eric
 
Jim Gerwing

Jim Gerwing

Well-Known Member
Merrily we roll along

Hi Eric:
indeed, the review is long.
When I get MY Vendetta, I'm gonna put it on rollers.
Right now the Quest is giving me a good SWB/MBB work out.
I turned the handle bar neck to extend rearward and spun the seat stay around 180 degrees to maximize layout. Without a headrest this really gives the sternocleidomastoids something to do.
cheers,
Jim
 
Eric Winn

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
A Quest to recline further

Yeah, no kidding, " Without a headrest this really gives the sternocleidomastoids something to do. "

I did this too with the Quest and this was indeed painful albeit a lot of fun to ride. This could easily be dealt with by using one of the excellent DIY headrest posts on these forums but what does not work is when you recline the Quest that far the handlebar stem and handlebars are smack dab in the middle of your forward field of view. With the recline so low, I don't see how even tall folks could avoid this much, if at all. Certainly is a no-win for short shrimps like me...

John overcomes this with how the Silvio and Vendetta is designed. Looking forward to finally getting my V.

-Eric
 
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