Vendetta Up and Downhills

Bamboo

New Member
I got a Vendetta for a week, and tried it in hilly area, well as much as its 50/34 + 12/28 gearing allows it since hills tend to be very steep around here.

After a few days of riding I got the hang of it though it was tough the two 1st days of ride as I was constantly wobbling, and by the way I would say that the Vendetta is quite a dangerous bike to take on the open road until you can ride it with a reasonalbe control. I am quite an experience bent rider but never rode a MBB before and the 2 first rides were painfull.

first there is something that I think is a big flaw in the design of this bike, the handle bar is unecessary too long and prevent to turn the wheel enough to make a Uturn because the drop bar block on my belly, not only it is unpractical but can be deadly in case of a fall, unacceptable on a bike of that price. Why not sawing the drop bars so that they could be just long enough for holding the bar but not more.

Asides te ergonomic of the bike is good, and the seat confortable wich was a good surprise since its design looks quite unsophisticated at 1st look. The heigth of the BB is good, not too high but high enough for good aero. The only thing it that the seat is not ventilated and the pad isn't either so could be improved...

As a general comment I would say that it is not a bike for everybody, but for motivated cyclists as it required motivation to get the hang of it and the design at its own limits that makes this bike not easy to use in some cases...

Inherently the geometry of the Vendetta gives a lot of pedal induced steering, it is not a problem at all when you ride at moderate and relatively constant speed, but can be tricky to deal with if you want to ride agressively. Sudden change of pedaling cadence and/or rythsm are not velcome on this bike. Also unecessary move of the upper body translates in wobble, by the way I don't understand how Cruzbike can claim that upper body involvement is productive on this bike, because I observe exactly the opposite. What I feel is that you have to relax your arms and pedal downward to avoid unwanted wobbling.

personally I find that there is 3 areas where this bike is quite marginal :

1 very low speed stability and handling
2 fast pedalling cadence
3 fast downhill (as a consequence of 2)

This bike is not easy to ride at very low speed, the reason is because if the boom move too much sideways then the weigth and momentum of your legs start to destabilize the bike. As a consequence starts are uneasy on flat land and very challenging uhpill, and next to impossible when the slope is steep. The other consequence is that very steep hills are also not a nice place to ride with this bike, you have to stay very focused on steep ramps especially if you run out of gear, it is quite doable but requires strong focus, and if you put a foot on the ground you are good for a walk..

This bike works better with slow pedalling cadence, it is unconfortable and uneasy to sustain high cadence on this bike and I would add not productive, yes it wobbles at high candence, consequently fast downhill are not great unless you don't pedal. But trying to accelerate on downill by spining out can be dead scarry as the bike engage in long wobbling trends, it is particularly annoying when you restart pedaling.

Finally where the bike works better is on moderate hill up to 7% , it climbs well (once you have solve the wobbling problem) though not exceptionally well. On flat land it works too but the aero is not fantastic because of the wide handlebar and the massive front end.

As I said above, the ergonomic is good but the short wheel base along with the triangulated front end makes the bike bouncy on rough road so the ride is not exactly fluid or carpet smooth.

So in my view this bike is more for long distance in flat and moderately hilly environment than a hard core climber or for agressive biking as it doesn't like to be brutalized. In the same time it requires motivation to become proficient on it again it is not a bike for casual riders.

My last comment it that it is a way too expensive bike for an aluminum frame especially considering the limits inherent to its geometry that I discussed above but after all it is a very personal matter of how much too much is too much...


 

Kim Tolhurst

Well-Known Member
bent experience

Hi Bamboo,

Your post is straight, a direct response to your experience and very good to have. I would like to put what you have achieved into a particular perspective to broaden some points. You have had a go at two things at once.(No MBB experience and fastest cruzbike available,your first ride.)

This is like me being an experienced road legal sports car driver suddenly being given an drive F1 race car to drive. Yes I would fish tail, yes I would oversteer/understeer on the corners yes my body would be asked to accept something differant and yet it is still a car. Given my confidence as a sports car driver in one week I would hope to be able to take off in a straight line and not spin out at all in the F1. Indeed as well as you have done on the V.

best,
Kim.


 

charlesw

Member
Bamboo,
I would say that I


Bamboo,

I would say that I agree with your view within the context of just a short period with the bike. But the longer you ride, the better the experience gets.

I too have been an experienced recumbent rider. I too have never ridden a Cruzbike before purchasing my Vendetta. I too experienced the scary seemingly unstable design in my first few weeks.

I found that I can high cadence on climbs. But yes, normally lower cadence seems more natural while cruising. In my opinion, pedal induced wobbles are overcome by smoothing pedal technique and more time for upper and lower body to learn to synchronize.

I still do not pedal in fast descents. And really fast downhill descents are still one of the last areas of riding that I'm learning. But I have confidence that the skill will come, others are doing it, I can too.

Regarding climbing, I have never climbed so fast on a recumbent (or any bike). In fact, I can consistently out-climb my riding buddy on his carbon fiber DF. On the super steep climbs, I'm of the opinion that it comes down to gearing. I have a compact double (50/34) along with an 11-32 cassette and I can climb my benchmark "steepest" hills near me. Admittedly this gearing combination keeps me going no slower than about 7mph. Slower than this and it is a challenge to keep it upright. But in my recumbent experience this is nothing to do with the Vendetta per se, but the amount of seat recline. Any recumbent reclined to 22.5 deg is going to be hard to climb going slower than 7mph.

And of course there is the sit-up technique for slow climbing that I attempted once, but have yet to perfect and get comfortable with. It feels a bit like riding a unicycle when sitting up like this on a steep climb, which again I have confidence I will learn someday. :)

I think Kim put it just right, you've got to give yourself more time to acclimate given the nature of this bike.

So far, I find myself being happier and happier with each day riding this bike. Very rewarding.
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
Hi,
Just to add what the


Hi,

Just to add what the others have said, the general reply is: Give it more time. People who are a lot more experienced than I am are still reporting improvements in their riding after many hundreds of miles.

I'm assuming you are already clipping in. I found that this allowed me to spin at a much higher rate in a controlled fashion. There are some who after riding for a while now prefer to ride their MBB bicycles with no hands. So clearly once the body gets used to the bike, the pedal steer isn't much of an issue anymore.

Second, yes, you very much need to give it more than a few days. I've managed to pedal my Sofrider to just under 40 mph downhill with a 48x11 top gear (which is actually higher than 50x12) but 26" versus 28" wheels. On a recent ride, I stopped pedalling at 35 but then managed to coast to 42 mph. (I'm assuming that you aren't complaining because you can't pedal much past 40. If you really are, up your highest gear (although going 40 mph on a bicycle is already nuts).

Third, a lot of people seem to like the Ventist seat pads as they are more ventilated than the standard.

Finally, as far as the handle bars go, there seem to be many different opinions as to what's best. Since you aren't happy with the standard bars, try something else.

Good luck and stick with it,
Charles

p.s. As far as the price, it's really not fair to compare DF bike prices to recumbents because of the economy of scale. While I'ld love to see the Vendetta cheaper, I don't think they have much room do play with here. (Of course, maybe they'll read this and decide that "Charles deserves a free Vendetta! :D")
 

billyk

Guru
agree with charlesw

I'm with charlesw - With high cadence, my Quest is a great climber on moderate hills. Strongest-climbing recumbent I've ridden, just feels tremendously powerful. But I also have to go with bamboo and say that high-speed descents are pretty scary. That wobble - pedalling fast downhill it feels like the wobble could amplify and I could go down at any moment. Never have, so I guess it's just a feeling, but ...
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
"Ow! Doctor! It hurts when I

"Ow! Doctor! It hurts when I raise my arm like this."

"Then don't raise your arm like that."

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) )

I think you guys are right that the Cruzbikes are different beast as far as riding down hills and that, yes, it is much harder to pedal at a very high cadence than a regular bike. In the beginning, I found it to be much harder than a regular bike. In my case, at least, I find that the more I ride, the faster I can go on the downhills without the wobble. It is important to point out that I've never ridder another SWB bike, so I can't tell you how much I lose on the top end because of the MBB. So maybe this really is a bigger deal than I think.

If you do wobble, stop pedaling. And not pedalling, I actually feel safer in a MBB bike as my legs and my arms are making sure that any bumps I hit won't torque the wheel enough to make me veer somewhere I don't want to go.

Billy, out of curiousity, do you have a 22" or 26" Quest? The 26" Quest 2.0 has a ridiculously large maximum gear inch rating (my back-of-the-enveloppe calculation is around 127" where as the Sofrider is 107" and 102"ish on the 451 Quest).

Whatever you ride, however you ride, ride safe.

Charles
 

billyk

Guru
I have the 26-inch Quest but

I have the 26-inch Quest but swapped the elliptical (42-tooth) chainring for a round 36-tooth one, because I needed a lower gear for hill-climbing.

According to Jim Parker (re Quest 2.0) "The gear-inch range is 22.2 to 105.7 for the 20" and 26.3 to 124.7 for the 26"". So by swapping the chainring, that reduced the gear inch by 36/42=85.7%, thus to 22.5-107. That's a lot better for my riding in hilly Seattle, where a street with only 3-4% grade is considered flat, and there are lots of unavoidable 10%+ grades. I bet a 36-tooth elliptical would be even better since it would even out the pedal stroke.

I find that if I attack a steep hill with very high cadence, I can keep those pedals rotating fast but only be going 5mph and it is perfectly stable. And I don't have the problem bamboo mentioned of low-speed instability, even turning sharply. Somehow the front wheel drive allows the rider to push through a very sharp turn at low speed. I feel like I'm "holding the bike upright" by pushing on the inside pedal.

BK
 

Charles.Plager

Recumbent Quant
HI Billy,
While I wouldn't


HI Billy,

While I wouldn't mind a little bit more on the upper range for really charging down those large declines (the Sofrider is 107"), I completely agree about the lower range and uphills. The original Sofrider went down to 26 gear inches. I pulled the double and put on a triple and now go down to 21.5" and for big hills, I wish I had even lower gears (maybe I'll get motivated and see if I can add a lower granny gear to my triple). I find that I sometimes go under 4 mph up the big hills and I've only fallen over once so far because I was going too slow (I may or may not have hit the curb...).

Cheers,
Charles
 

kidneyboy

Well-Known Member
 Bamboo,
 I have to agree


Bamboo,
I have to agree with the other posters here. Keep practicing. The Silvio I own, which by all accounts is not as fast as the Vendetta, is the best climbing/fastest bike I have owned but I practice slow speed handling constantly, just like I have done with all my other bents, so I know my own limitations on the bike. I also practice shifting at slow and high speeds, particularly downshifting. It's easy to adjust to going faster but difficult to adjust to suddenly slowing down and then being in the wrong gear. ( OK, I also practice 1 foot pedalling and stops and starts all the time, but I'm a little obsessive about practicing )

As far as downhills and cadence, Jim Parker has addressed this once or twice on the site here. Personally, I will slow pedal and shift to my highest gear (53x11) at the start of a downhill. I can do this in a relaxed manner with no wobbling as I'm coasting. This has allowed me to exceed 45mph with the Silvio on quite a few occasions already this year. It also sets me up to only have to worry about downshifting at the bottom of the hill.

Keep practicing and good luck.



P.S. I find it interesting that I'm the 3rd Charles to reply to this post.


Kidneyboy aka Chuck (Charles)
 

kidneyboy

Well-Known Member
 "p.s.  As far as the price,

"p.s. As far as the price, it's really not fair to compare DF bike prices to recumbents because of the economy of scale. While I'ld love to see the Vendetta cheaper, I don't think they have much room do play with here. (Of course, maybe they'll read this and decide that "Charles deserves a free Vendetta! :D")"

Then one would hope they pick the correct "Charles" :D
 

Jim Parker

Cruzbike, Inc. Director
Staff member
Keep practicing

Hi Bamboo,

Yes, by all means stay off the busy roads until you are very comfortable!

If you are sensing that you are losing power to "pedal steer" that means only that you are new to the format. Beginners commonly sense that their upper body is working AGAINST the lower body. I remember that I certainly did. Keep with it and practice eliminating any pedal steer effect at slow, medium, and fast pedaling. Eventually the feeling will change to the upper body working WITH the lower body. Years of riding other bikes may have reinforced a disconnection between your upper and lower body. It may take a long time to build the coordination required to operate this bike at its full potential.

Regarding slow speed maneuvering and U-turns... I have to make U-turns all the time to go back and re-group with my DF friends :)

Seriously, these skills don't come overnight. They build gradually. The Sofrider and Quest are much easier bikes to learn to ride. What you are doing is like learning to drive a car by getting a Formula 1 race car. It can be done, but you need some extra patience.

Regarding the handlebar problems you are having... sounds like you need some adjustment or the ends need to be bobbed off. It's important to get the handlbar feeling just right for you. We do a lot of work with the handlebar when sprinting and climbing.

Thanks for sharing.

Jim
 

Bamboo

New Member
Somes Videos

I did short Videos of my climbing

1st on a gentle slope 0f 5-6% over 1.5Kms or 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9LyKF2XReo

Obviously it climbs, does it really climbs much better? I can't really tell because I didn't have the bike for long enough to perform real comparison and the gearing of the bike I had was not suited for the steep ramps of the area where I bike. My 1st evalution is that though the vendetta climbs well it does not climb significantly better than the bike I am used to (which is also a good climber) probably slightly better but not significantly better. Will more practice change that conclusion ? probably a bit but not that much.

Yes it is really steep around here, and downhills are really technical here, so any weakness on a bike will be pretty visible because it is a very demanding environment for a bent both up and downhill . And in that sense my report is interesting because it really pushes the bike in a difficult terrain of long climb with very steep ramps but also downhill with thigh switchback on narrow and degraded roads

then on a steeper hill

with 13% ramp first then ease then steep again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFOsdQAWn68&feature=relmfu

the 1st attempt was clearly a fail but the bike was not geared properly for such steep ramp so that was totally unforgiving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klmCj6FfF4M&feature=relmfu

I might be a beginner on MBB but I am quite an experienced bent rider on difficult terrai and though I recognized that the Vendetta has qualities, like lightness for an Al bike , good ergonomic, good climbing abilities, I think there is room for improvement for a bike of that price. But that is only my humble opinion.


 

mickjordan

Well-Known Member
Re : SOME VIDEOS

Seems like we live in the same area! I recognised the first video of Mt Eden. Did you descend the other side? Quite a gnarly descent with the frequent gravel patched. I couldn't place the second video. Thought you were heading on Altamont for Page Mill at first. The killer test would be Redwood Gulch - I can barely keep the front wheel on my DF down on that.

I have a new Silvio but, unlike you, am not an experienced bent rider, so it's all new to me.

 
Hi Bamboo
You climbed well


Hi Bamboo

You climbed well for such a short time on a Vendetta.
I looked at your videos.

I haven't ridden a Vendetta but I will soon I have the frame and now the parts have been sent.
I have a Sofrider and have had it for several years and remember it took me 4 trips of about 50 km before I was able to control it.
I was able to ride it on my first try but when I tried to go faster the bike didn't go where I wanted it to go.

After more practice I was able to ride fast and steer the bike where I wanted it to go that was after my forth trip.

Being able to handle the bike very well took much longer and was a very interesting learning process.
I practiced U turns with shifting my weight on the bike I was able to make small circles.
I can hold very slow speed if needed riding among people if I go shopping.
Body English moving your weight from side to side takes some practice.

What is your best climbing recumbent?
 

Bamboo

New Member
climbing

Mick

Yes it was Mt Eden, the 2nd video was taken on Pierce road which is much steeper. I am very familiar with Redwood Gulch with my own bike but I couldn't do it with the Vendetta because the gearing was to long, 50/34 wit 12/28 is too long to attack 18-20% ramp like Redwood Gulch.

Peter

I ususally ride a Velkraft VK2 and it climbs quite well as you can see here on very steep ramp, it was one of the last bike made by Velokfrat and it is a rigid version with thicker carbon walls so very rigid. I still think that it is a unique combination of speed, climbing, fun comfort and design that is hard to beat. But I am bit biased toward low bike.,. in the same time I'd like to have a higher bike wit 700C wheels that would mix better with DFs than a lowracer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzMFoAm6vU

Very steep hills are not a problem on a bent as long as you have the proper gearing and your bike is not to difficult to balance at very low speed.

I think on moderate slope the Vendetta seems slightly more efficient than the VK2 from a timing I did, but the difference is not much so it would require a lot a trial to really quantify the difference. On steeper hill I don't know, the Vendetta is more difficult to balance and you have to focus more at very low speed so more practice is required to compare.



and it is also quite efficient downhill but that is another story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQN2BdGmb7U


 

mickjordan

Well-Known Member
CLIMBING/GEARING

So what do you attack Redwood Gulch with gearing wise? I have the Ultegra Triple on the Silvio, which gives 30-28, not much difference really from 34-28. I mostly like the triple for the 39 middle ring that I use a lot on rollers etc. I have a 28-28 low gear on the Trek that I used to use on tough climbing doubles, e.g., Terrible Two. Seems like the Cruzbike might need the mountain derailleur to get down to a 32 or 34 rear sprocket for the steeps. Although I take your point about stability. I'm typically going close to walking pace on 15%+ climbs on my DF, which could be a problem for the Cruzbike. Fortunately, this is not what I spend most of my time doing any more (although Redwood Gulch is on the Sequoia Century route this Sunday).

I'm sure you are very well versed in descending on a bent. I'm always getting overtaken by them, but right now I think it would be pretty scary as even cornering on flat roads seems quite different to the DF, which I am well versed in, although I am not a risk taker.

I posted a question about technique for Cruzbike/bent descending (on technical descents) but didn't get a lot of response. Any tips you might have appreciated.

Mick
 

Bamboo

New Member
Gearing

I use a compact 50/34 alond with 10 speed 11/36 , it is a bit long for Redwood Gulch but still ok.

The Vendetta does well downhill, it is easy to ride but as long as you don't pedal... you need quite some practice to reaccelerate the bike after a switchback going downill, or attack rollers agressively. I didn't have the bike for enough time to do descent like the one in te video on the Vendetta
 
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