Vendetta Winterizing

JOSEPHWEISSERT

Zen MBB Master
Okay, I'll start thinking about power again. The type I used before was the PowerTap hub, but that was ages ago.

Helmets: I suspect the helmet testing is performed with the helmets in the "face down" position, while we wear them in the "face tilted up" position. I would expect our Giro Attack Shield helmets (with shields) to perform better than the Ballista helmet due to combined position and shield effect. Either way, I love the shield.

Wheels: yes, considering a deep dish front wheel. From what I've read, a front disc wheel has twice the aero effect of a rear disc wheel, but the front disc is unsafe. I should be able to gain an advantage with a deeper front wheel than I have, but probably not as much as with a disc. Also, I don't want to increase mass, so that's a factor. And the Ksyriums are indestructable - wouldn't want to give that up. And the biggest factor: cost. They are really expensive. But it's on my list. And they look cool.
 

DavidCH

In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Hey Joe, I know this subject is close to your heart. I couldn't find the old thread to post it on so I knew you would like to read about it. It's on the subject of frame consistency. Carbon / aluminium trade offs. After the correspondence we had there seem to have developments on Kickstarter.

http://flip.it/UmtiK
 

JOSEPHWEISSERT

Zen MBB Master
Hey Joe, I know this subject is close to your heart. I couldn't find the old thread to post it on so I knew you would like to read about it. It's on the subject of frame consistency. Carbon / aluminium trade offs. After the correspondence we had there seem to have developments on Kickstarter.

http://flip.it/UmtiK
Thanks David.
FYI: I proposed the idea of using magnesium in the thread named "Robert's V20 build". Maybe that's the thread you were looking for.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Here's what I have in the works for 2016:
  • Install latex inner tubes in both tires
I know this is an old thread, but I wonder what your current thinking is on this. I ran latex tubes for a while, and they were noticeably nicer, especially inside a premium tire. But I gave up on latex tubes because they tend to blow out rather than leak down slowly. So I decided the risk/reward wasn't worth it.
 
I know this is an old thread, but I wonder what your current thinking is on this. I ran latex tubes for a while, and they were noticeably nicer, especially inside a premium tire. But I gave up on latex tubes because they tend to blow out rather than leak down slowly. So I decided the risk/reward wasn't worth it.
I think @JOSEPHWEISSERT has left the forum, no show for three years.
I'd like to know if Schwalbe's Aerothan has promise. I usually go tubeless, but have tubes for repair and for my "occasional use" bikes.
 

LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I know this is an old thread, but I wonder what your current thinking is on this. I ran latex tubes for a while, and they were noticeably nicer, especially inside a premium tire. But I gave up on latex tubes because they tend to blow out rather than leak down slowly. So I decided the risk/reward wasn't worth it.
I used to run latex tubes - they were faster, but like you said they blow out and leak down. I am sold on Tubeless and like Mathew I carry a tube for a repair only. I use Pro Ones and have nothing but great things to say about them. no more pinch flats. If severe tire failure the tire stays glues to the rim so you chance of going down is way down.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
I think @JOSEPHWEISSERT has left the forum, no show for three years.
I'd like to know if Schwalbe's Aerothan has promise. I usually go tubeless, but have tubes for repair and for my "occasional use" bikes.
I also used to use Panaracer GreenLite Urethane Tubes, but they had a problem with the metal valve stems sealing to the urethane nipple. My dealer stopped carrying them after I returned too many for exchange. I don't think they make them anymore.

The Schwalbe Aerothan uses plastic valve stems, so the material compatibility should be better; and they have a large seal around the nipple, so it looks like they have that problem covered. The other problem that this should solve is the high initial failure rate of rubber tubes, which is around 10%.

What's interesting is that the tubes are 100% recyclable. Riding a racing bike is not that eco friendly if you consider all of the manufacturing inputs and the short lifetimes.

They claim that it does not rapidly deflate like latex. And the air loss is less than rubber, rather than more like latex.

Even if you are tubeless, the low weight and small size makes carrying backup spares easier.

Here's an article in German with a good pic (machine translation is passable):

https://www.velomotion.de/magazin/2020/10/schwalbe-aerothan-schlauch-test/
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
I used to run latex tubes - they were faster, but like you said they blow out and leak down. I am sold on Tubeless and like Mathew I carry a tube for a repair only. I use Pro Ones and have nothing but great things to say about them. no more pinch flats. If severe tire failure the tire stays glues to the rim so you chance of going down is way down.
What do you think about the Vittoria Air-Liner Gravel Tubeless Tire Insert?

https://www.vittoria.com/us/air-liner-gravel-vittoria

I know they are intended for gravel bikes, but I wonder if they would be useful in the front (drive) wheel to give added control after a blowout. They say you can even run flat on them for an hour.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
Following up on this. Has anyone tried foam tire inserts, especially to provide run-flat capability on the front wheel?

I just got a $150 "rear" wheel from LBS stock with 25mm internal width rim (Velocity Cliffhanger) for the front of my V20 for winter training. We have already had our first snow, and the roads have started self-destructing. So with limited visibility and maneuverability on the V20, I want to be able to plow through potholes when that becomes inevitable.

Running a 28mm or 30mm tire is kind of pushing the limits of the 25mm rim width. So I think I need to cover that with a foam tire insert to protect the rim from impacts.

There are a few liner options for gravel & CX bikes besides the Vittoria above. There are more expensive CushCore Gravel/CX Tire Inserts Set for 700c x 33-46mm tires, but these could probably be used on narrower tires with a wider rim (which makes the tires wider anyway). Same for Tire Defender ‘true foam rubber insert’ for Gravel & Cyclo Cross applications in 700C that fits tire width 30mm to 45mm. And Rimpact CX for 17mm-25mm Rims x 700c but 33c-45c Tyres only (obviously from GB so may not be readily available).

The Advanced Rim Defence (ARD) from MTB specialists Nukeproof has been developed to prevent damage to rims and to stop punctures. There is a 29" insert at 144g for rims which have an inner width from 19mm to 35mm (which should also fit 700C wheels).

Tubolight tire inserts are available in:
  • ROAD: 23c-28c tubeless road tires. Designed as a safety device, to avoid the tire to jump off the rim after a flat. Does not provide riding advantages. Weight: 11 grams.
  • CX: for cyclocross and gravel tires from 30c to 37c. Particularly suited for cyclocross racers looking for the lowest tire pressure without burping. Weight: 16 grams.
And there are Tannus Armour inserts for tubeless or tube applications, which are a different design from all the above. I was kind of leaning toward the Tannus Armour tubeless because they allow you to push one bead into the center channel for mounting on tubeless ready rims without tools (the other foam inserts make that difficult) but they are only available for MTB size tires. The Tannus Armour tube-type also look interesting, but they add a lot more weight.
 
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Would that be similar to the other sealant products people use with tubeless tires (truckeroo, Stan’s, Orange, etc. )?
I’m sure it is, I happened to have a large bottle with some leftover after using it in my Harley tubes and noticed that it can also be used in bike tubes so I gave it a shot.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
What do you think about the Vittoria Air-Liner Gravel Tubeless Tire Insert?

https://www.vittoria.com/us/air-liner-gravel-vittoria

I know they are intended for gravel bikes, but I wonder if they would be useful in the front (drive) wheel to give added control after a blowout. They say you can even run flat on them for an hour.

So I did a tubeless conversion on my front wheel, including the Vittoria Air-Liner GRAVEL with a 30c tire on a 25mm inside rim with Stan's sealant. It's been trouble-free for a few months and over 1000 mi. Then I finally got a flat last week.

At first all I noticed was a change in road noise. I bounced the bike up and down to check for a flat, and the rims didn't bottom out, so I continued a few miles to a 7-eleven. There I noticed the tubeless tire was soft, probably <40 psi. It was getting dark, so I booked a motel 5 mi away and put a 16g CO2 in the tire. Some CO2 leaked out, but the tire went up to about 60 psi. When I got to the motel, it was soft again, <40 psi. I was too tired to deal with it that night, but next morning, the tire was almost flat. I took it to the gas station across the road, but couldn't get the tire to seal and hold pressure on the coin-op pump with intermittent pause for pressure measurement. I didn't want to put a tube in it because then I would have to toss the liner.

I assumed the sealant was bad, so I rode almost flat to the bike shop 5 mi away. The ride quality was fine, and the bike was controllable, but the road was smooth and flat, and I kept it under 10mph. You definitely don't want to hit a pothole though.

The bike shop had 2 oz. bottles of Stan's sealant, so I put one in the tire. But when I opened the valve core, some almost clear liquid came out, so the sealer was not lost to leaks or evaporation. They only had a Schrader valve on their compressor, and it didn't work very well, so again, I couldn't get the leak to seal. Due to logistic shortages they were not able to restock any spare tubeless tires after they recently ran out, so that wasn't an option. I had a spare tire at home, so I decided to give up and walk to a train (to save the liner) and then got a ride the rest of the way home. The tire liner made it easier to walk the bike with a flat too.

At home, I was able to get the leak to seal with my compressor. But the tire sidewall had rubbed against something causing a small bubble with a small torn hole in the casing. So the tire was shot, and would not have lasted long if I continued riding as the hole would continue to tear open. I wasn't able to break the bead which was essentially glued on now, and this was complicated by the liner pushing back, so I cut the tire off the rim. Inside the tire the latex in the sealant had rolled up into little rubber cement type balls between the liner and the underside of the tread. I assumed those formed when I rode flat. Also the rim tape was disturbed by my attempts to break the bead and had to be replaced.

So I basically had to start over with a new tire, rim tape and sealant, but I re-used the old liner. I decided to go with a new Conti GP5 TL 28mm tire and their Revo (non-latex) sealer. 28mm is probably the absolute minimum tire size for the 31-40mm rated gravel liner. You can just barely get it under the un-inflated tire, but it needs a lot of encouragement to get the beads in the center groove of the rim so you can mount the tire all the way--the Crankbrothers Speedier Lever is a must. It's a lot easier with a 30mm tire, but that's probably the max for the V20 fork. Vittoria now has a new Air-Liner Road system with 25, 28 and 30mm nominal sizes which work with narrower rims as well.

Bottom line is that I decided to continue using the Vittoria tubeless tire liner. You really can ride it flat, so that is a big safety benefit for front flats. I'm not sure if it would keep the bike controllable on a 40+ mph descent around switchbacks, but it does remove the inevitability of a crash at lower speeds. It also gives you the option of riding to a safer, or shadier, or dryer place to deal with the flat. But then it adds an extra layer of complexity to fixing the flat. I have added a small utility knife, the Crankbrothers Speedier Lever and a small bottle of sealant to my bike based on this experience.

Edit: I think I also need to add a spare tire.
 
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chicorider

Zen MBB Master
That's quite an experience! I've used road tubeless for years now, and have never gone through what you describe. The idea of a sudden front wheel blowout on a V20 is pretty horrifying, but in my 35 years of road riding, I have never had that kind of flat on any bike. Punctures? Sure. I guess that I've put the sudden blowout scenario out of my mind. Yes, it could happen, but it probably won't. (Yes, I could get hit by a car on this next ride, but I probably won't. Yes, a squirrel could run out in front of me on this next downhill, but one probably won't). Maybe I'm being naïve, but if I ruminate too much on what could happen, I'll never leave the driveway.

My experience with tubeless tire punctures comes in two types: those small enough that the sealant does its job immediately, completely, and permanently, and those that are big enough that the sealant slows down the loss of air until the tire reaches a lowered pressure against which the sealant can hold. Stopping to pump the tire back up with this second kind of leak will only raise the pressure back above the sealant's ability to hold; the slow leak will return until the tire reaches that equilibrium point again, whatever that might be. Sometimes that equilibrium pressure, say, 50-ish lbs., is enough for me to make it home, sometimes not. When the puncture is too large for the sealant to work, I pull over and pull out my Dynaplug Pill. One, maybe plugs will seal the hole enough that I can pump the tire back up, let the sealant fill in the rest, and make my way home easily enough. On mountain bike tires, Dynaplugs can last the remaining life of the tire. But for road bike tires, they are a temporary fix. The higher tires pressure will eventually push the plug back out. But every time I have used a plug on a road tire, it has stayed put long enough for me to finish my ride and make it home, where I can patch the tire properly from the inside when I'm good and ready.

Having said all of that, I rarely have to do any of this with tubeless tires and sealant. Typically, as long as I add a couple ounces of sealant every six months (three ounces when a tire is new, two ounces every six months after that), I won't have to do anything with a tire until it is worn out and needs replacing. And when I pull the tire off, I marvel at all the spots where the sealant did its job without me ever knowing. It's as if all those tiny punctures that would have had me on the side of the road, fixing a flat tube, never happened. I guess in a way, they never did.
 

CruzinCambridge

Active Member
I'll second chicorider on tubeless. I've been riding tubeless on my DF for 3 years now. First year, I got a large puncture and had to put a tube in, which with tubeless being snug and all the sealant, takes a while and makes a mess. Then I learned about dynaplug and "side of bacon". Side of bacon is a little smaller and better for intermediate sized holes. I carry both in my jersey so if I have a larger puncture, I can grab the kit and plug the hole before all the air leaks out. I've done a front wheel without getting off the top tube. I've done maybe 3 plugs over the past two years. Even with a large puncture (like 3 mm) going downhill I've been able to stop in control in 20 yards or so. If I was at the front of a group it could have been dicey. As it is, I'm usually back on the road in as little as 5 minutes with plug and pump. I've had the bacon stay in at full pressure for 100 miles and then replaced it with a second bacon on day two of a back to back weekend without incident. You can then remove the plug repair the tire from the inside with a patch. They make special patches or you can use a tube patch depending on if your sealant has mucked up the inner surface of your tire (I had luck using a tube patch with Orange, but not with Stan's).

Also for winter and wet weather riding, tubeless at lower pressure is brilliant.

As for liners, it seems to me like a lot of work and also weight and expense for a worst case scenario. I'm less worried about potholes with tubeless because I can't get a pinch flat... which I used to get all the time in the city on my way out to rides in the country. I feel like the use case for tire liners is for racing. On a normal ride I carry a tube (yes... even with tubeless, belt and suspenders) and a pump and a boot... or if its an irreparable flat, I'd get a ride home or to a bike store. If I'm touring, I'd bring a spare tire.

One of my fall/winter projects is to convert my S30 rims to tubeless.
 

TransAm

Well-Known Member
My experience with tubeless tire punctures comes in two types: those small enough that the sealant does its job immediately, completely, and permanently, and those that are big enough that the sealant slows down the loss of air until the tire reaches a lowered pressure against which the sealant can hold. Stopping to pump the tire back up with this second kind of leak will only raise the pressure back above the sealant's ability to hold; the slow leak will return until the tire reaches that equilibrium point again, whatever that might be. Sometimes that equilibrium pressure, say, 50-ish lbs., is enough for me to make it home, sometimes not. When the puncture is too large for the sealant to work, I pull over and pull out my Dynaplug Pill. One, maybe plugs will seal the hole enough that I can pump the tire back up, let the sealant fill in the rest, and make my way home easily enough.

That's consistent with what I experienced. When I added pressure, it leaked back down to the lower pressure. And as I continued to ride, as the threads around the hole continued to break, the pressure it would hold lowered until it was almost, but not completely flat. In my case, the pressure it would hold initially was not enough pressure to continue to ride without the liner. I didn't try putting a dart in it because the hole was in the sidewall close to the rim, so I didn't want to try to get 30mi home in traffic with that.

As for liners, it seems to me like a lot of work and also weight and expense for a worst case scenario.

The weight of the Vittoria liners is trivial. Putting them in (a proper size tire) is no more trouble than putting in a tube, and they actually make initial inflation easier because they help seat the bead, so you can inflate them dry and then add sealant. But they could make changing the tire in the field more difficult (turns out they actually make a tool for this: https://www.amazon.com/Vittoria-Air-Liner-Tool/dp/B08W12VXMY).

I'd say the main thing is the expense which is about $40 ea. Here in the Northeast US, the worst case scenario is not that uncommon with potholes. I've had double blowouts, cut tires, you name it. My concern with the V20 is that the potholes are harder to see, and you can't bunny hop them. So I think the liners are good insurance.
 

JOSEPHWEISSERT

Zen MBB Master
I know this is an old thread, but I wonder what your current thinking is on this. I ran latex tubes for a while, and they were noticeably nicer, especially inside a premium tire. But I gave up on latex tubes because they tend to blow out rather than leak down slowly. So I decided the risk/reward wasn't worth it.
I’m still running Vittoria Latex tubes. I have to pump them up before every ride, but I rarely have flats. When I do have a flat, it’s usually a slow leak, not a blowout. I haven’t tried tubeless or anything else after switching to latex six years ago. I’ve wondered if tubeless would be better, but just don’t have a good enough reason to switch yet. Sometimes, it obviously doesn’t make a difference anyway, such as when I saw a guy on a ride this summer go over fresh roadkill and the bones sliced his tubeless tire. But, I am going tubeless this winter on my fat trike, so maybe I’ll reconsider for the Vendetta if I like tubeless on the fat trike.
 
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