Vosadrian's V20 Journey - Australia

[Bentsoup]

A guy on Bentrider is thinking about buying a V20 (used) if he can find one, but his concern, like many, is the learning curve. He doesn't want to invest and then end up hating it and selling it. I posted my success story along with a few others, but I really think he would benefit from seeing one up close and personal.

Probably a long shot, but I thought I'd try and help him out if possible.

 

[Opik]

A guy on Bentrider is thinking about buying a V20 (used) if he can find one, but his concern, like many, is the learning curve. He doesn't want to invest and then end up hating it and selling it. I posted my success story along with a few others, but I really think he would benefit from seeing one up close and personal.

Probably a long shot, but I thought I'd try and help him out if possible.

There is someone in newcastle who has a V20, around 3 hours by train from Sydney, probably driving can be faster, he is in here too

 

[Don1]

That's Jon. For me.. I just committed to the format. Built a bike with a couple of tip bikes with the old mig and got a recumbent seat from eBay. Took a week to learn and never looked back.

 

[Frito Bandito]

I tried to help also. If enough people throw out worst case scenarios it starts to sound pretty bad and happen too frequently. I hope he is able to process all of the conflicting opinions well enough to make an informed decision.

 

[MrSteve]

Open-minded world views are easy -and fun- to interact with.
This is probably why I often don't.

 

[vosadrian]

Hey Guys,

I joined here a few days ago. I am the guy in Sydney.

On paper the Vendetta seems to be the best option for me. I come from a substanial DF road bike background and have race to fairly high club level. I have lots of good DF bits which will work well on a Vendetta (including a nice set of 50mm light weight wheels). Also, I am a DF rider who spends a fair bit of time standing, so using my upper body and moving the bike around... so MBB makes sense also. Also, I do a fair bit of climbing so want a bent that is as good at climbing as possible.

I have done a lot of sports and pretty good with coordination for sporting activities. I think I should pickup the MBB OK. I am prepared to put some time in and be patient with that.

I do have some health issues... mostly back, but my neck is not great also. That is probably the biggest risk. I am looking at going bent to alleviate back pain I get on my DF so I can ride more. I have recently reduced my riding due to back pain. I do hope that bent will help with this and my neck will cope with the recline angle.

The big issue for me is where I live I have to commit a lot of $$$ to purchase and am likely to lose a large chunk of that if I have to sell if it does not work out. I have actually been considering buy a near new V20 (200kms old) as the rider did not like it, so don;t want to be in the same situation. I don't mind spending $$$ on a good bike if I get the use out of it, but prefer not to through $2k away just for an experiment. But I feel that is probably a risk I have to take. I can't workout a way to get access to a V20 for long enough to learn it and determine if it suits me without buying one. Ideal would be a well priced 2nd hand one and then I can sell for similar money if it does not work out, but very low chance of that happening in Australia any time soon.

I have been negotiating with the local guy selling a near new V20. He purchased it with a few options (head rest, multiple bike bags, bottle holders etc.). It cost him >AUD$7k. Some other V20s that have sold over the last few years have sold in the $3.5-4.5k region. I have negotiated the guy down to $5k for everything delivered to me. Seems OK but not great. If it does not work out I can probably get $4k for it and lose $1k. If it does work out, I would probably replace the groupset and wheels with stuff I have and sell off that and maybe get $1k back. I am close to committing to this.... any advice appreciated!!

Cheers,

Adrian

 

[Frito Bandito]

Welcome Vosadrian. Glad you came here.

If you talked him down to $5K and barely use it then I think you can list it for the same price he did, and find a buyer in a reasonable amount of time to minimize your losses. Maybe even let them talk you down to $4.5 or even $5K. Finding used V20s for sale isn't so easy, which says a lot.

Anyway, I bought mine used here in Japan and it came with some extra stuff such as bags, bottle cages, Ventisit, suspension headrest, a decent but unneeded groupset, bike storage stand, cheapo wheelset and other small parts. Here is what I wound up with and why. I only use the moosepack because I haven't done any tours with my V20 yet. The Scarab bag is handy for larger items. I got new bottle cages because I drilled new holes in the seat instead of putting them behind the head to keep the COG lower. The originals are fine if you use the headrest cage mount kit, but at the almost flat angle they are at under my seat the bottles would fly out. The Ventisit is lovely, light, durable and breathable. I love the suspension headrest too. I did a few slight modifications to it that were cheap because the screws got loose, but it is a simple design that is adjustable to help get your head into a comfortable position. I had neck issues from my DF bike too but so far none from my V20.

In my case I saved a bit of money by buying used, but I wound up with a few unneeded items. Also, I didn't have the buy back guarantee. If I recall correctly, mine had about 2000km on it but I am not sure. I don't know the price of a new one in Sydney, but if you are worried about not liking it and returning it, that is a very nice option to have. Knowing what I know now, a new bike with a few addons would have been just as good a purchase.

On to the bike, I really enjoyed my DF bike, but I wish I would have switched to a recumbent years ago. I am still very physically active, but so much time on my previous bike was causing neck pain, wrist pain, back pain and butt pain. Also, max efforts for 3 hours on it left me physically exhausted afterwards. None of those are even an issue now after the same effort.

Yes, the V20 can climb but probably not as well as a DF. Everyone says some of the reason is less power, but I think some of it is also trying to keep balance at low speeds. Watching some riders wobble up ascents looks worse than it actually is. Most riders go with shorter cranks on recumbents. I went from 172.5mm to 165mm cranks but still run a 52/39 front and now an 11 speed 11/33.

I say make the jump. I am a very determined person, and simply don't consider "if" but "how?" If you are the same then I think you will be happy with it. CB Riders here have tons of advice with shortening the growing pains and making the transition as smooth as possible.

 

[vosadrian]

Thanks for the advice Frito!

I would say I am a bit like you and it is more how rather than if. I have a fair bit of confidence that I could get on top of the riding. My DF handling skills are good and I am confident with a technical descent and typically bunny hop gutters etc. I feel that I should pick it up quicker than average. The big risk for me is the back/neck. I reckon there is a good chance I would be in a better situation with them on recumbent than on my DF. I did a quick ride on a Performer Muses and the lower back support felt great, but I did find I wanted to lean my head back on something which this bike did not have, so I think the neck rest will be something I will want to get right.

For me, I think I could land a new frameset from Crusbike for AUD$4250. That would obviously have all warranty etc. but no groupset or wheels. This second hand near new bike is going to cost me $5k, so $750 more. I have wheels and most of a Di2 groupset, but getting a complete bike has some benefits... like I can learn with it as is, and put my good stuff on when I have confidence and then sell the bits I am not using and probably cover the $750. Also, the complete bike has some extras. Seller says it has:

Include big bag and small big
2 water bottle holder
Boom arm with changed angle
Head rest
Steering loom

I'm not sure of the value of that stuff and whether I will use it much.

I am close to making the jump!! Just need see I jump on hte right option!

Cheers!

 

[Frito Bandito]

I am sure you'll pick it up soon if you are bunny hopping gutters on a road bike. Can't bunny hop on a V20 though so you gotta be more careful about pinch flats and potholes.

What I can say about the neck and how the head rest helps mine is if you were to lean back in a chair, lower your chin down as far as it will go and then release the tension in the muscles so you don't have to hold your chin down, then that is what I feel on my current position. This gives my helmet plenty of space to not bounce off the headrest cushion as well (1 CBer even made a concave backing that seems to work even better than a flat one). I could say that it is stretching the back of my neck a bit too much but there is no pain at all. It took me a few adjustments to get it right though.

That's a tough decision. I bought mine used and it turned out okay because I had a ton of extra parts included. Most of them just sit in my house now though. Some people like the original seat, and some like the Ventisit. I like the Ventisit personally, and it would be nice to not have to worry about damaging the old RD just in case you lay it down. However, if you do buy new I'd recommend including the Ventisit, Moosepack and 1 of the available head rests if possible.

 

[vosadrian]

Thanks Frito,

I've just been going through the photos, and trying to workout what the extras included are and I believe it has the following included:

* Scarab bag - US$99 (Not sure if I would use)
* Moose Pack - US$49 (Will use)
* Curved Slider - US$200 (Could be useful for dialing in fit)
* Performance adjustable headrest - US$99 (Could be useful for dialing in fit)
* 2 bottle cages - US$18 (Will use)

So over AU$600 worth of extras which are mostly useful. When I consider that, I would probably bring my purchase of a new frame up to close to the same price ($5k). Is the slightly used aspect (and loss of warranty) worth it for a complete bike with groupset and wheels? I probably would have chosen the suspension headrest and not sure if thescarab bag is useful for commuting... probably to take a change of clothes etc.

Tell me one thing. I will use this bike for commuting... it would not be my choice as a commuter, but sometimes I do a long ride and finish at work. Sometimes I ride to work and then do a long ride after work and back to work to collect my stuff and then go home. It would be useful to have the capability to carry a laptop. I doubt the scarab bag can do that?? With my DF bike I just use a backpack. I hate carrying it, but it is usually just the first or last 10km of a ride. Is there any reasonable way to do this with a Vendetta? My work is in the direction of the fast flat roads that this bike would love, so I can seem myself riding to work a bit. I didn't used to carry my laptop home much, but COVID has changed that since I often work from home.

Carrying stuff does seem more managable on a bent. I hate carrying a heavy backpack on a DF... but if my riding position is unchanged and I have no weight hanging off my shoulders, I can cop a weight penalty and go a bit slower with some gear if I need to.

What sort of saving did you get for a second hand Vendetta compared to new purchase?

Cheers,

Adrian

 

[Frito Bandito]

Adrian,
I just checked if a 13" Macbook would fit inside my Scarab bag and it wouldn't. It would be good for a change of clothes provided they aren't too thick.

My bike with all of the add ons was about $3K US. Basically it was the same price as a frameset purchased online but I would have had to pay for shipping. And since Corona screwed up shipping I didn't even really bother to check how long it would take to get here from the U.S.. The seller was 185cm trying to sell a V20 in 1 of the shortest and most conforming countries in the world so he didn't have a lot of options. Especially when most people here are so averse to buying used because of no warranties. It sat outside for a while in the elements, but overall it was in good shape. I lucked out in those senses.

I don't have a link to the thread, but there is one here that shows various tail boxes. Larry Oslund has one, and they improve aerodynamics, but I don't know if a laptop would fit in one. Maybe panniers, but I am not sure if you can put them on a V20 without some kind of modifications.

 

[DocS]

Welcome Vosadrian!

I'm DocS from the Bentrider forum.
I'm not using my Vendetta for commuting, but have a bag that should be able to carry a laptop mounted to my Thor seat.
I recently acquired a Moose bag (for keys, wallet, etc). Other than that I've removed the other bags in the picture...

I'm not a racer, but can manage a pretty decent average speed for an old fat man in hilly terrain (22 mph (35.4 kph) over about 75 miles (121 KM)).
I typically ride with Diamond Frame riders, but I tend to ride outside the group. Although I can draft off them if I chose, I can't provide much help to them, so stay to the side. There are a few very small riders who have been able to draft off me, so when they ride, I pull them. I never swap out, because I'm a stronger rider than they are...

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in the Bentrider forum, but I ride recumbent bikes/trikes exclusively because of lumbar back problems.
If I ride a standard bike for about 5 minutes, I loose feeling in my legs because of the compression.
The Standard Cruzbike seat was ok and I ended up doing surgery on my Ventist Pad to insert memory foam in the lumbar area (for support). Eventually, I just bought a Carbon Fiber seat and Ventist Pad from Greggor at Thor. For me, it made a big difference and I really like it. Many here have changed their seats out as well.

My frameset was an older Vendetta model that someone bought and never built. I got it for a great deal (and don't think I'll ever part with it).

It sounds like you've already made the decision and now, just have to pull the trigger...

One option that you might explore (before committing to the sale). Ask the seller if you can "lease" the Vendetta for a couple weeks. Stipulate that if you purchase it, they "Leased money" will go toward the purchase price. If you cause any damage, you'll repair it or pay for the parts....

He may or may not go for that, but It's a less riskier way for you to try a Vendetta...

If that doesn't work, like Frito said, You're looking to buy it, so it's reasonable to assume, there will be a buyer for it if you decide you don't like it...

I took that same risk when I bought my first Cruzbike (a Silvio 2.0). At first, I thought I made a mistake! It seemed very foreign to me, then one day, it simply clicked! Check out this link https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/spring-time-learning-to-ride-time.10889/
When I started learning to ride it, I excluded all other bicycles/trikes and just focused on getting better at riding the Cruzbike.

Good luck and God Bless,

DocS (AKA Rudy)

 

[chicorider]

Some people have used Radical Design's Banana Racer bags on the V20 with success. They hang to each side of the frame, under the seat pan.

After 27 years on a DF bike, my lower back couldn't take it anymore. I bought a Vendetta frameset on blind faith five years ago and never looked back. Best road bike I've ever owned.

 

[Roland]

Some people have used Radical Design's Banana Racer bags on the V20 with success. They hang to each side of the frame, under the seat pan.

After 27 years on a DF bike, my lower back couldn't take it anymore. I bought a Vendetta frameset on blind faith five years ago and never looked back. Best road bike I've ever owned.

 

[vosadrian]

Hi DocS, chicorider,

It is encouraging to hear about your back. I have issues in lumbar spine around L4/5 (and others!!), but nothing that bad that surgeon is willing to operate to try and fix. My issues are constant. I am in discomfort 24/7, but after an hour on a DF, I just want to get off. A hobby that is provided much joy and happiness for many years has become something I dread. I don't need to ride 500kms in comfort, but it would be nice if I could do a 5 hour ride without agony.

The other thing with me is I am the type of person who whatever I do in sports, I push myself to my limits. I like going fast and trying to beat PRs and beat mates!! Lets just say I enjoy Strava! So I want a bike capable of going as quick as my DF. If I can find a bike that I can find comfort and tap out 100km in 3-4 hours (or less!!) and not be looking for excuses to get off the thing, that is what I am after. If it can climb good enough to be within 20% of my DF climbing times that would be great. My DF bike weighs about 7kg and has nice light wheels and is a stiff frame for good power transfer, so I doubt I could match my times on it even if I put out the same power.

Frito, it sounds like this Australian Second hand bike is about the same price as yours... in that is just a little ($500 more than a frameset delivered from Cruzbike (including delivery on both). It has some options that have some value as well... and it is near new. Probabyl not a bad price, but it would be great if it was the same price as new. I did send a message via the Cruzbike site to see if there is any ex-demo or other cheaper options a couple days ago and have not heard anything yet.

I think I could probably sell a bike for around $4k if need to, but may take time. If I get the framset, I have to let go of a groupset and wheelset I have, so the loss is great. If the complete second hand bike, I just sell it as it is. I will wait a few days to see if anything comes from Cruzbike, and then decide which way I go.

Cheers!

 

[Roland]

Hi Adrian,
I am in Canberra and ride a vendetta V20. I am not aware of any second hand Vendettas for sale. I bought mine new online four years ago. All up I would have paid $7000 as it is now, so if you can get one for $5000 as new you will be saving money. You may want to fit a Thor CF Sport seat set at 23 degrees which I found was the way for me be comfortable. I tried all sorts of fixes for the original seat but wasn’t for me. Made a headrest using aluminium stock and memory foam covered with a Wool Explorer sock turned inside out and bolted to the seat.
I’m 68 with a worm out body so need all the comfort I can find.
Cheers,
Roland

 

[cpml123]

One option that you might explore (before committing to the sale). Ask the seller if you can "lease" the Vendetta for a couple weeks. Stipulate that if you purchase it, they "Leased money" will go toward the purchase price. If you cause any damage, you'll repair it or pay for the parts....

It took me many months and maybe 1k miles to get used to riding my S40. I think you should just commit the money so that you have to stick it through. Otherwise you probably won't like it before you ride it long enough to like it.

 

[bladderhead]

What @cpml123 said. If you try it and do not buy it you will think you have avoided an expensive mistake. You will still be wondering if you will ever again be on a bike. You will be wondering how we can all be such enthusiastic evangelists for this thing. If you buy it you will be sure for a long time that you have made an expensive mistake. Then that time will come to an end and it will suddenly seem like the best expensive mistake you ever made. This happened to me.

 

[Don1]

Now's a good time for a new frameset with the Aussie dollar so high...... Swap the grouppo and wheels.. rocketship.

 

[Frito Bandito]

It took me many months and maybe 1k miles to get used to riding my S40. I think you should just commit the money so that you have to stick it through. Otherwise you probably won't like it before you ride it long enough to like it.

That is exactly what I did. Never test rode one. Only saw a few recumbents even in person and never could catch up to them without jacking up my own ride. All I saw were people having a good time and going fast. I trusted the aerodynamic benefits, the comfort benefits and said "____ it."