Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Oh, if this works for what I now have in mind it will be better than getting arresteddon’t get arrested mate you don’t want to be that cruzbike guy
Vosadrian's V20 Journey - Australia
- Thread starter Bentsoup
- Start date
jond
Zen MBB Master
lol well thanks but compared to say larry watts per kg I’m pathetic and its now five years later turning 60. Hah no excuse. And it’s all relative I.e it’s only cycling fun. I like doing audax but not racing. I’m no racer. Heart not in it. Cause I’m no good. But I’m determined to ride more audax events in retirement just over eight months away now covid willing. Thankyou and I’m sure you will achieve your goals looking at your strava profile. Thumbs up.
I'm more the racer type.... but it seems you can't do that where i live on a bent. I've done a fair bit of DF racing though and love that. I'm lucky to have good peak power (on a DF), so I do OK in racing. I can do 1-2 minutes at high power and have a descent sprint for 10-15 seconds. Wish I had time to do Audax, but too much time training for me.
jond
Zen MBB Master
ahh well that’s the secret. For 200 300 and even 400 day rides. I say what you can do in a week you can do in a day. Dial it back and ride smart.
Vossi You could do audax right now. It is a real test of yourself. Many think average of 15 klm per hour is easy or 13 on the multi day rides. No it’s not easy. Discipline and smarts equal success . I hope one day you will accompany myself and dome as part of a recumbent team. March 2022 okay.
And hey vossi. The 12 + 12 if you ride is a race between you and this old man.
At least for the first two laps.
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I'm not great at riding smart. Put me on a bike and I ride at close to threshold... not good at pacing myself!! But I might have to work out how and do a Audax some time. If I rode at <150W average and eat properly, I should be able to do 2-300kms. Good thing about this bike is that it would probably be >30kph at 150W if it is flat and light wind. For me, it seems 200W is about 40kph with current setup. Also, my bike is now more capable of a longer ride... it now has a boot/trunk:
Got it working with the adjustable neck rest. I may need to rework it at some point. It is pretty bouncy so I will monitor if the Aluminium gets some fatigue and bends/cracks. On the plus side, the bracket to mount it is only about 100g. about 1m of 12X3mm flat bar.
Got it working with the adjustable neck rest. I may need to rework it at some point. It is pretty bouncy so I will monitor if the Aluminium gets some fatigue and bends/cracks. On the plus side, the bracket to mount it is only about 100g. about 1m of 12X3mm flat bar.
jond
Zen MBB Master
Cool. Well done engineering vossi. Obviously bringing it closer will help. also not pulling 90 degree bends where loaded keeping angles slack down low with that flat bar. Fine tuning. Engage the entire pocket shape. Make a template first. Blah blah. Get the top of bag under neckrest curve if possible.
And of course you can use the supplied cumber band for heavy loads. I use the 1.6 mm bar with 2 kg in bag zero issues.
like this And this
Get the top of bag under neckrest curve if possible. And of course you can use the supplied cumber band for heavy loads. I use the 1.6 mm bar with 2 kg in bag zero issues.
like this And this
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Yeah... I think it needs some work actually. The top is just under my helmet so it is well above shoulders which is not going to be very aero. When I was working on it, I aimed to have the slope at the bottom match the slope of the seat. This was achieved with the top of it close to horizontal level. I thought that may be good for flow under the bike, but when I got it on, I realised the top was very high and would be in the wind. I can lower it easy enough... just cut the bars shorter going to the top. But then the bottom will go below the seat... not sure how much air flow there is to worry about there. I probably need to tilt it back to so the top is no longer horizontal. I can't reall get the bottom of it the same as yours though as I am using the adjustable head resit which has the main join where the bag is on yours.
I'll probably do a few rides as it is first and get a better feel for what I want to change and then make adjustments.
I'll probably do a few rides as it is first and get a better feel for what I want to change and then make adjustments.
jond
Zen MBB Master
yeah air below seat I can’t comment. And of course your adjustable neckrest tubes being vertical setting the bag angle inconvenient.......At least you have water plus storage now and it looks good. You might tie in two saddle bags back to back to fill the space.
Prior to the race case the brain bag was used by Jim and Maria.
Good luck it’s fun tooling around improving and finding a way to make it work. Great job mate.
I think I'll aim to bring the bottom to about 1 inch wheel clearance and as far forward as I can get it, and the top tilted back and live with that. Hopefully I can get it level with my shoulders. I might make something up to seal the bottom of the bag to the underneath of the seat. Just keep the air flowing underneat the seat as smooth as possible.
Just did first ride with it. I have to work out the best routing for the bladder tube. I could poke it in an and out of the hole in the top, but I was pretty unstable returning it, so only on a quiet road with no traffic. Would be better if I can work out how to do it with a strap to have it retract back to position by itself. I did a new loop due to COVID rules, so can't comment on speed differential, but it did not seem slow even with the bit in the wind above my shoulders!! I may have gained some by removing bottle from under the seat also.
Just did first ride with it. I have to work out the best routing for the bladder tube. I could poke it in an and out of the hole in the top, but I was pretty unstable returning it, so only on a quiet road with no traffic. Would be better if I can work out how to do it with a strap to have it retract back to position by itself. I did a new loop due to COVID rules, so can't comment on speed differential, but it did not seem slow even with the bit in the wind above my shoulders!! I may have gained some by removing bottle from under the seat also.
jond
Zen MBB Master
okay your options with a tube are office works retractable lanyard but they break in freezing temps.
Velcro tabs or...
Best I found was a magnetic coupler. Some 1,5 litre bladders come with them. Never fell off yet.
mine is an osprey hydraulics bladder. Very strong magnet. Attach with Velcro zip tie to frame one side of magnet. Other is on hose.
jond
Zen MBB Master
Maybe you can adjust the neckrest to have top of bag parallel to ground. I know the reticence to readjust what is comfy but you can’t have a bag as an airfoil. Lol. I’m sure it makes bugger all difference as the bag may possibly add some little aero possibly.
You want the hydration tube down and beside you. Or easy reach. Initially I used office works cheap retractable lanyards but they let me down eventually. Can’t beat the magnet on osprey hydraulics 1.5 litre bladder. $40.
You want the hydration tube down and beside you. Or easy reach. Initially I used office works cheap retractable lanyards but they let me down eventually. Can’t beat the magnet on osprey hydraulics 1.5 litre bladder. $40.
At some point I am going to try the OEM neck rest again and try to get that working for me. I suspect it will be with some modification. I am not using it now anyway, so nothing to lose by trying to get it working.
I cut my mount bracket by 30mm and it is about 30mm lower now. Still not as low as I would like, but I am happier with it. An added benefit is that it shortesn the suspension arm, so the bag is less bouncy and less likely to bend over time. The bottom of the bag has about 30mm clearance to the wheel now... so not much more room to go down. I want to maintain at least 10mm clearance for the bag to stretch as it gets used more. Also, with more weight it will get closer. I'll leave it like this for a while and let the bag stretch in and then readjust.
I have the camelbak crux 1.5L bladder. It fits nicely in the Brain box insulated sleeve. But it has quite a stiff tube, so is not that flexible to route or move when riding. What path did you use for the tube with your brain bag? One of the holes in the top and then down... or did you make a hole out the bottom to go down the side of the seat? I will do a search around the forum to see what I can find for tube solutions.
I cut my mount bracket by 30mm and it is about 30mm lower now. Still not as low as I would like, but I am happier with it. An added benefit is that it shortesn the suspension arm, so the bag is less bouncy and less likely to bend over time. The bottom of the bag has about 30mm clearance to the wheel now... so not much more room to go down. I want to maintain at least 10mm clearance for the bag to stretch as it gets used more. Also, with more weight it will get closer. I'll leave it like this for a while and let the bag stretch in and then readjust.
I have the camelbak crux 1.5L bladder. It fits nicely in the Brain box insulated sleeve. But it has quite a stiff tube, so is not that flexible to route or move when riding. What path did you use for the tube with your brain bag? One of the holes in the top and then down... or did you make a hole out the bottom to go down the side of the seat? I will do a search around the forum to see what I can find for tube solutions.
jond
Zen MBB Master
out the appropriate zippered corner. Wouldn’t hole the bag. But zip is shorter route than out middle top like you have it had it. 30 mm will rub most likely. But if that 30 mm is only the leading bottom edge it should be good.
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Hey All,
Just an interesting comparison to add here. Due to Sydney lockdown restrictions, I had had to adjust my usual riding loops. Fortunately I live in a government area that is large and not subjected to as tighter restrictions as some, so I can still do some pretty good rides. Unfortunately almost all the riding in my area is hilly... mostly rolling hills. My area also has some very strong cyclists... some of the stronger amatuers in Sydney and pretty high up in Australia. Due to lockdown limitations, we are riding similar loops. One of my mates is a regular winner at cat 1 club level racing, and is competitive at state master championships (podium in TT and road race at state champs), and similar age to me. He found a nice 50k segment that he first did on his road bike and then came back on his TT bike to see how much quicker he could go. I decided out of curiousity to have go on my V20 and see where I would end up. The segment is about 20km of rolling hills maintaining elevation. Then about 15km of rolling hills while gradually dropping about 200m elevation (fast). Then about 15km of rolling hills gradually gaining the lost 200m elevation (slow). Total of 650m elevation for this segment which I consider a fair bit, but no long slow climbs. Road surface is mostly pretty dead road chip gravel tarmac and pretty rough in places. Not ideal for a V20 and IMHO better suited to a TT bike which would climb better but not lose much on the fast bits.
First on the aero road bike (High end Specialized Venge with 60mm? deep carbone wheels): https://www.strava.com/activities/5745795178/segments/2858524235001440182 with a time of 1:26:29 for an average speed of 35.5kph at 252W average.
Then on TT bike (High end Specialized Shiv TT with deep front and disk?? rear): https://www.strava.com/activities/5755984711/segments/2859259156600896402 with a time of 1:19:01 for an average speed of 38.8kph at 282W average.
Then me on V20 as in photos in this thread (stock V20 with narrow bars, my 50mm wheels, brain bag): https://www.strava.com/activities/5761941522/segments/2859678228433431198 with a time of 1:21:56 for an average speed of 37.5kph at 204W average.
Now this guy is much stronger than me and I knew I would not beat him and best would be to get as close as possible. Even at my best on the DF he would put out 50W more than me (probably 10kg heavier than me), but I also have always found my power numbers seem lower compared to others for similar efforts... so read into that what you will. I expected to be 5-10 minutes slower. Was pretty happy to be only 3 minute slower. I think with better bent adaption and peak fitness with some deeper wheels I could narrow this down a fair bit. On my DF I could probably do around 240W average on that segment at peak fitness, but not sure I could get that much on the V20 (maybe 225W?). I will have to give the segment a go on my DF at some point for comparison.
Going by the numbers, I was about 1.3kph slower with 78W (~30%) less power. The weather conditions were different with both being similar light winds but opposite direction. I lost about 1.5 minutes heading north into head wind, but gained half of that back on fast section heading south. I really lost most in the up hill last 15km. I think I was more aero than him and gained on fast section, but the higher weight and lower power output meant I lost more than I gained in the hills. Flatter course would be closer. His ride on the road bike is lower power than the TT bike... He could probably do 280-300W on the road bike for that course. I think that would have got it in the 36-37kph range... and left me about half way between his efforts on road and TT bikes.
Anyway, I thought the results interesting for comparing a road bike to TT bike to bent on a challenging TT style course. Would be interesting to see similar on a flat/smooth course better suited to a bent.
Just an interesting comparison to add here. Due to Sydney lockdown restrictions, I had had to adjust my usual riding loops. Fortunately I live in a government area that is large and not subjected to as tighter restrictions as some, so I can still do some pretty good rides. Unfortunately almost all the riding in my area is hilly... mostly rolling hills. My area also has some very strong cyclists... some of the stronger amatuers in Sydney and pretty high up in Australia. Due to lockdown limitations, we are riding similar loops. One of my mates is a regular winner at cat 1 club level racing, and is competitive at state master championships (podium in TT and road race at state champs), and similar age to me. He found a nice 50k segment that he first did on his road bike and then came back on his TT bike to see how much quicker he could go. I decided out of curiousity to have go on my V20 and see where I would end up. The segment is about 20km of rolling hills maintaining elevation. Then about 15km of rolling hills while gradually dropping about 200m elevation (fast). Then about 15km of rolling hills gradually gaining the lost 200m elevation (slow). Total of 650m elevation for this segment which I consider a fair bit, but no long slow climbs. Road surface is mostly pretty dead road chip gravel tarmac and pretty rough in places. Not ideal for a V20 and IMHO better suited to a TT bike which would climb better but not lose much on the fast bits.
First on the aero road bike (High end Specialized Venge with 60mm? deep carbone wheels): https://www.strava.com/activities/5745795178/segments/2858524235001440182 with a time of 1:26:29 for an average speed of 35.5kph at 252W average.
Then on TT bike (High end Specialized Shiv TT with deep front and disk?? rear): https://www.strava.com/activities/5755984711/segments/2859259156600896402 with a time of 1:19:01 for an average speed of 38.8kph at 282W average.
Then me on V20 as in photos in this thread (stock V20 with narrow bars, my 50mm wheels, brain bag): https://www.strava.com/activities/5761941522/segments/2859678228433431198 with a time of 1:21:56 for an average speed of 37.5kph at 204W average.
Now this guy is much stronger than me and I knew I would not beat him and best would be to get as close as possible. Even at my best on the DF he would put out 50W more than me (probably 10kg heavier than me), but I also have always found my power numbers seem lower compared to others for similar efforts... so read into that what you will. I expected to be 5-10 minutes slower. Was pretty happy to be only 3 minute slower. I think with better bent adaption and peak fitness with some deeper wheels I could narrow this down a fair bit. On my DF I could probably do around 240W average on that segment at peak fitness, but not sure I could get that much on the V20 (maybe 225W?). I will have to give the segment a go on my DF at some point for comparison.
Going by the numbers, I was about 1.3kph slower with 78W (~30%) less power. The weather conditions were different with both being similar light winds but opposite direction. I lost about 1.5 minutes heading north into head wind, but gained half of that back on fast section heading south. I really lost most in the up hill last 15km. I think I was more aero than him and gained on fast section, but the higher weight and lower power output meant I lost more than I gained in the hills. Flatter course would be closer. His ride on the road bike is lower power than the TT bike... He could probably do 280-300W on the road bike for that course. I think that would have got it in the 36-37kph range... and left me about half way between his efforts on road and TT bikes.
Anyway, I thought the results interesting for comparing a road bike to TT bike to bent on a challenging TT style course. Would be interesting to see similar on a flat/smooth course better suited to a bent.
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
That is nice to see you went almost as fast on 30% less power. In ultra endurance races that would be massive, Deeper wheels would eat into that time for sure on that course. How much depends on your current wheels and what you replace them with. On a flat course you probably wouldn't even have to change anything.
I agree Frito. For longer rides at lower powers, the bent would come into its own... although I would not want to do a really long ride on that course. 3 laps of that course would be 150kms with 2000m elevation. That would be tough on a V20. Give me 150kms with <500m elevation!
The wheels I am running are pretty good. Recent design Roval 50mm carbon wide wheels with 25mm (well matched to rim width) fast tubeless tyres. At around 38kph, how much faster are some 80-90mm wheels gonna go? 1kph?? I think on that course I just need to get some more power down. I will aim to get the power level up to 220-230W and I have Yoeleo C88s on order. Maybe I will get there in a couple months.
On a side note.... I ordered Yoeleos about a month ago, and still not shipped. They have communicated the delays to me, but I am still probably looking at 10-15 days before shipping. Pretty dissappointed with the service so far. Hopefully the wheels are better than the delivery times!!
The wheels I am running are pretty good. Recent design Roval 50mm carbon wide wheels with 25mm (well matched to rim width) fast tubeless tyres. At around 38kph, how much faster are some 80-90mm wheels gonna go? 1kph?? I think on that course I just need to get some more power down. I will aim to get the power level up to 220-230W and I have Yoeleo C88s on order. Maybe I will get there in a couple months.
On a side note.... I ordered Yoeleos about a month ago, and still not shipped. They have communicated the delays to me, but I am still probably looking at 10-15 days before shipping. Pretty dissappointed with the service so far. Hopefully the wheels are better than the delivery times!!
Frito Bandito
Zen MBB Master
Yeah, that much climbing in 150km would have me screaming uncle well before finishing. I did about 90km with 1336m of climbing last month on the V20 with a mate to watch the Olympic cycling races and I didn't let up much on the pedals until I had no other choice. I could have fueled and hydrated better, but it put me in the hurt locker. A lot of PBs, but screw that. I didn't buy the V20 to climb. I only do it because I have to get where I am going.
I hear good things of the 88mm Yoleos so I hope you get the set delivered soon.
I hear good things of the 88mm Yoleos so I hope you get the set delivered soon.
jond
Zen MBB Master
You will and can push the same power numbers. Took me a year riding 300 plus a week. Ftp 270. keep at it.
Comfort is speed when you blur your vision on shite roads you lose power. I’m telling you to cut down an old inner tube and put it in the headrest sock . You will kick yourself when you do. Can fellow Aussies be wrong. Do it.
if you infill your rear you’ll gain speed. Both wheels are very dangerous in any wind. The rear is fine. Catches wind but not badly shunting you off road. But not for high winds really like your 88s how much speed see larry o testing. Around 1 klm to 1.5 at the 40 plus end. 220 watts.
as for climbing at speed. See Jason. It can and is done. How much difference does the weight make. Well actually not all that much. It’s well documented.
keep at it. You will take your mate out. Remember you’re doing it 30% easier. And in supreme comfort heads up safer on Aussie tech.
i personally get lazy with the free speed.
see you at the 12x12 for a one lap race young fella. I think we are fairly similar except I’m old with heavy oil and a misfire and only three gears to match the cylinders.
I’m bringing the vendetta to show you a floating on air neckrest.
do it.
stay safe mate keep on enjoying the riding.
edit of course it’s all just fun.
Comfort is speed when you blur your vision on shite roads you lose power. I’m telling you to cut down an old inner tube and put it in the headrest sock . You will kick yourself when you do. Can fellow Aussies be wrong. Do it.
if you infill your rear you’ll gain speed. Both wheels are very dangerous in any wind. The rear is fine. Catches wind but not badly shunting you off road. But not for high winds really like your 88s how much speed see larry o testing. Around 1 klm to 1.5 at the 40 plus end. 220 watts.
as for climbing at speed. See Jason. It can and is done. How much difference does the weight make. Well actually not all that much. It’s well documented.
keep at it. You will take your mate out. Remember you’re doing it 30% easier. And in supreme comfort heads up safer on Aussie tech.
i personally get lazy with the free speed.
see you at the 12x12 for a one lap race young fella.
I think we are fairly similar except I’m old with heavy oil and a misfire and only three gears to match the cylinders. I’m bringing the vendetta to show you a floating on air neckrest.
do it.
stay safe mate keep on enjoying the riding.
edit of course it’s all just fun.
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I'll keep at it!.... The interesting thing is that I had a few months off my DF before getting the V20.... and then once I got up to speed on the V20, I did some pretty quick times. Then I stuck the power meter on the V20 and started recording power a couple months in, and I don;t think my power has progressed much since then. I've gotten faster from some equipment upgrades and technique improvements, but power is much the same. I'm not doing any more riding (been doing 150km a week the whole time) but I thought the adaption would kick in and I would get closer to my DF power levels... but no real noticable change in that. Perhaps when I ramp up the kms in Spring, I will see some changes.
I have some plans for the neck rest. I want to modify my standard neck rest and use that over the adjustable one which is really heavy. Then I will re mount the brain bag. Part of that will be to try an inflated tube head rest. I want to borrow a tube bender and see if I can get a few degrees more bend into my stock neck rest first.
That TT course I did above is lots of short climbs. On a DF, I would stand at 500W+ on my 7kg bike for many of them. I just can't do that on the V20. I am carrying 10% more full rider/bike weight (which is 10% slower at the same power), and I can only get to 3-400W, and I feel done as I go over the top. Standing on the DF uses different muscles, so I usually power over the top to get to speed and then settle back in to normal position. Of course on the DF I will be slower everywhere else, and slower overall, but I just can't see that I would match the DF on the punchy climby bits of the that course with the bent ever. Maybe for longer seated climbs I would get close, but not too sure. My PR for DF climbing sustained power is a 200m elevation climb in 8 minutes at 340W on a 7kg bike when I was about 67kg around 1.5 years ago. It is going to take a lot of effort to get to that on the V20. Where is this documented info on climbing from Jason?
I'm looking forward to that Race Jon! I am far from 270W FTP... so I expect you should smash me. But I will do my best!! I think we should try rolling turns and see if we can get close to the faster teams!
I have some plans for the neck rest. I want to modify my standard neck rest and use that over the adjustable one which is really heavy. Then I will re mount the brain bag. Part of that will be to try an inflated tube head rest. I want to borrow a tube bender and see if I can get a few degrees more bend into my stock neck rest first.
That TT course I did above is lots of short climbs. On a DF, I would stand at 500W+ on my 7kg bike for many of them. I just can't do that on the V20. I am carrying 10% more full rider/bike weight (which is 10% slower at the same power), and I can only get to 3-400W, and I feel done as I go over the top. Standing on the DF uses different muscles, so I usually power over the top to get to speed and then settle back in to normal position. Of course on the DF I will be slower everywhere else, and slower overall, but I just can't see that I would match the DF on the punchy climby bits of the that course with the bent ever. Maybe for longer seated climbs I would get close, but not too sure. My PR for DF climbing sustained power is a 200m elevation climb in 8 minutes at 340W on a 7kg bike when I was about 67kg around 1.5 years ago. It is going to take a lot of effort to get to that on the V20. Where is this documented info on climbing from Jason?
I'm looking forward to that Race Jon! I am far from 270W FTP... so I expect you should smash me. But I will do my best!! I think we should try rolling turns and see if we can get close to the faster teams!
jond
Zen MBB Master
Lol vossi good to hear.
Past tense on the 270 watts last tested um five years ago. So there is that. 67 kg you’ll smoke me. Or you better. I’m six one 81 kg 59 year old starting to feel it old.
but hey when will you ride with another vendetta right. Paceline. Heck no I’m dangerous. Like 53 teeth to the back of your head dangerous.
but yeah testosterone I’m good to go a few laps for fun till I yield.
so be ready I will be. Down the straight we pass so many a few fit guys play pass and be passed. It’s short sharp and fun. No lights this year apparently too yay.
just search Jason’s posts. Triple crown etc. also google climbing and bike weight.
see you at 67 kg
covid willing
Past tense on the 270 watts last tested um five years ago. So there is that. 67 kg you’ll smoke me. Or you better. I’m six one 81 kg 59 year old starting to feel it old.
but hey when will you ride with another vendetta right. Paceline. Heck no I’m dangerous. Like 53 teeth to the back of your head dangerous.
but yeah testosterone I’m good to go a few laps for fun till I yield.
so be ready I will be. Down the straight we pass so many a few fit guys play pass and be passed. It’s short sharp and fun. No lights this year apparently too yay.
just search Jason’s posts. Triple crown etc. also google climbing and bike weight.
see you at 67 kg
covid willing
