Watts, how many light bulbs can you power with a Vendetta?

[RojoRacing]

Ok so at the frequent prodding from other riders I picked up a set of Vector Pedals to start measuring my power and hopefully help solve a few bike fit issues. Now that I've played around with the pedals this week I'm kind of kicking myself in the ass for not getting them before the 24hr worlds last year because that would have been great for determining some sort of baseline. Just so you know I'm actually using the pedals on the DF bike right now as I continue to make friendly with this highly competitive group I'm riding with but it wont be long before I bring back out the V to spread terror. After 2 months off in Dec and Jan I still feel like I'm playing catch up with the pointy end of the group and I'm not sure if that's because I'm a touch out of shape or the group is faster because they are in prime race season or my DF bike is slower then the V.

For now it would seem I can sustain around 200 watts in the upper realm of my comfort zone which is lower then I'd have guessed based on my racing resume but then again I've never committed much thought to watts so what do I know. My left to right leg power output is spot on at 50/50 and these pedals give me a bunch of other numbers I can't really make sense of.

I'm not sure how much Garmin will let other users see of my data but here's a link and a few screen captures. If you guys and gals have any thought feel free to share. I should see some kind of improvement over the next few weeks and since the group does the same 5 routes every week it'll be interesting to compared the DF to the V numbers wise.

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1064363154
https://www.strava.com/activities/502944239/

 

[LMT]

......and these pedals give me a bunch of other numbers I can't really make sense of.

I'll cover what I know:-

FTP (functional threshold power) is the power that you can sustain over an hour. You test this either by riding for an hour and seeing what the average power is, or (what is accepted and more practical due to the stress involved) is to ride for 20 minutes and multiply this by 0.95. So 350 would mean an FTP of 333W. You then divide by this by your weigh in kilos which then gives your watts per kilo. Google Coggan w/kg chart to see where you stack up against the w/kg of riders from Cat V all the way up to the pro's

Your average power is exactly this, your average power of the session.

Normalised power (NP) is your average power but accounts for the fluctuations that occur when out on the ride. The training load would be the same as what it would be if you was to complete the training session indoors on a static trainer.

Intensity factor (IF) is your FTP divided by your NP for the session. Which will give a figure to two decimal places of how hard the session was and classify this accordingly.

• Endurance / Recovery Ride – 65% and lower

• Moderate Ride – 65-80%

• Tempo Ride – 80-95%

• Time Trial or Race – 95-105%

• Short Time Trial or Race – 105% and higher

So your intensity factor for your ride was .581 or 58% which means that the ride was a recovery ride. Does this sound about right? Did it feel like a recovery/endurance ride? Your FTP given is 367w, is this correct?

What is not given in the above screen shots is variability index. This is how variable your ride was in terms of pacing. What you do is take the NP of the first part of the ride and divide this by the NP of the second part of the ride and multiply this by 100. If the variability was more than 5% then one might say your pacing was off. The VI is very useful for things like time trails, endurance rides to see if your pacing throughout the ride was good or if it was off.

TSS is training stress score is the overall training load that accounts for NP, IF and duration of the ride.
TSS = (sec x NP x IF)/(FTP x 3600) x 100. TSS is really good because it accounts for all the training factors, it gives you a number, record this along with the TSS for each day of the week and this will give you an accurate picture of hard you have been working. It also allows to recreate training sessions but using more/less time or going at a different intensity.

 

[LarryOz]

Hi Jason,
Now that you have made the large investment in the pedals, make a small investment in a couple of books. I suggest:
The power meter handbook by Joe Friel
The Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe Friel
Training and Racing with a Power Meter, by Allen Hunter

You can get all three of them on Amazon for about $30 total.

They are all very good and give you a lot on insight into how to train and race with power. I have been using Garmin Vector Pedals for about 20 months now. Mostly right off the bat you have some "interesting" data to look at. What you basically need to do is collect this power data on "every" ride you do. You will need to collect it for months for it to be maximum benefit. When you read the books, you will understand why.

Nothing wrong with what Lee said above either.
The first thing you really need to do is figure out what you "FTP" is. Most accurate method is to stick yourself on a trainer and basically ride as hard and constant as you can for 1 hour. Second is have a good "repeatable" course outside that does not have any stops. Pretty much all your workouts and progress during the year is then based on this FTP value. It should be re-calculated about ever 6 weeks, since current workout are always based on current FTP.

The other really interesting and possibly confusing thing you have to do it separate the data from your DF riding and your recumbent riding because there is a substantial difference. I think it is different for everybody. Since you appear very comfortable on both the DF and the Vendetta, this should be fairly easy for you to do. You basically need to have an FTP for each platform, as it is easier to make watts on a DF. From my limited experience the difference is somewhere between 15-20%. This means if you have a 250watts FTP on your DF, then your FTP on your Vendetta is likely to be 200 to 215watts or so. There are people that say these numbers may gravitate closer to each other as your body adapts to the recumbent platform. I am not sure.

Other really cool data you can collect between the 2 platforms is wattage needed for certain speeds on both the flats and different grades of hills. Most people agree that a Cruzbike will outclimb any other recumbent, which I believe is true. But I still think that there is a major difference with how the Vendetta compares to a DF going up a hill. The steeper the larger the gap. Personally I think that the same athlete that is adept on both platforms will always climb substantially faster on a DF on any grades over 2-3%. But a DF can't even compete with the Vendetta on flats or downhills, or even gentle rollers.
It will be interesting to see what your data reveals.

 

[RojoRacing]

I've only got 2 rides with a power meter EVER so I have no idea if any of these numbers seem normal. I also do almost no structured training or test sessions so I have no previous reference points in that respect ether. What I can say is the above example ride is anything but a recovery ride, in fact is a 45 min all out road race which me and 4-5 other rider trade pulls and tow a group of about 30 riders. The whole ride is over an hour so maybe the casual pedal over to the start and pedal back to work after are bringing down the averages.

My current FTP I think is automatically generated via my Garmin device so I'm not sure of it's accuracy.

 

[RojoRacing]

Well that's just great. First they convince me to spend a ton of money on pedals and suddenly now I also need books as well what's next

As for separating my DF and V data I think the best way would be to make separate Garmin Connect accounts because Connect is where all the data is viewed. I'll leave everything on one strava account because a KOM is a KOM no matter what your on. I'll try and hit my lap button at the start and finish of the meat of the ride and see if garmin will let me dissect just those 45 mins.

Also fat chance getting my to go all out on a stationary for an hour :lol I can only ride indoors while playing video games which doesn't play well with FTP efforts. My commute to work at 3am when I do it has no stopping of traffic and is 100 mins long so maybe I could test my FTP there. Only problem I can think of is about 30 mins into that 100 min commute I turn into a 30 mph head wind and the rolling hills start. I know effort is effort whether is be flat or a climb but the changes could make it hard to get that perfect pacing. I've got like 8 months and a ton of other races before the 24hr road race again so for now I'll just keep riding and recording for later use.

 

[LMT]

The books that Larry quotes are really good, I have both of Joe Friels books. Spend a couple of days working through them step by step. They don't provide you with a training plan per se, but what they do do, is to give make you look at what you are looking to get good at, how much time you have for training, how much training you should be doing on a day to day basis and finally the type of training you need structured into a 20-24 week programme of base, build and finally race training for the event you are preparing for.

I'm an audax/long distance rider. So my training is primarily long sessions at zone 2, using zone three intervals at the weekends. And during the week it's more interval based training at sweet spot, z4 level, with the odd effort at zone 5 as the audax rides I have coming up in the summer are hilly.

If you can I'd recommend a static trainer, these are not really my thing so I use a wattbike down my local gym for all my training needs.

If you don't know what your FTP is then test it, if you are unsure about the pacing requirements for riding for an hour or 20 minutes as I mentioned above then I'd suggest doing a 3 minute effort or 'maximum minute power' as wattbike refers to it. Take the figure that is given for this three minute effort and go onto wattbikes website and input the figure. As rough ballpark figure your FTP figure would be within the Z4 range.

As an example my maximum minute power figure is 466w, this gives a Z4 range of 304-350w. Once you have trained at these intensity's for a few weeks you get a good feel for pacing and then you can test for FTP. Mine is 330W.

FWIW the power curve for the FTP test should be as constant as possible, with a slight lift at the end as you empty the tank. Needless to say you should be broken at the end of the test - right on the limit of passing out. It's all good though as this gives you an accurate reading for your power zones. Good luck.

 

[LarryOz]

My current FTP I think is automatically generated via my Garmin device so I'm not sure of it's accuracy.

This number is pretty close - at least within 5-10% but only after garmin (or strava) has enough data. They still basically use your best 1 hour average wattage - maybe tweaked a little.
Those books each have ways of estimating your FTP with different "shorter" durations. Some do 2x8min at max, Some do 1-5 minute at max, then rest, then 20 min at max and call that your FTP. All in all they come pretty close without killing yourself on a 1 hour TT!

Also fat chance getting my to go all out on a stationary for an hour :lol I can only ride indoors while playing video games which doesn't play well with FTP efforts.

So you don't like indoor training? I watch video of the races that I tape from the front of my bike. It keeps me pretty occupied.
I have to ride indoors exclusively for at least 5 months due work and weather. I actually prefer it now, as I can write my own workout on TrainerRoad and feel I get a much better workout. Way safer too - the only thing I have to worry about is falling off my bike while it is hooked to the trainer. That has not happened yet!
Check this out:
Last night I wanted to see if I could go through the night and how it would feel, so I started around 7pm on my Wahoo KICKR trainer. I lasted 6 hours at 176watts, but then was developing cramps and a severe case of hot-foot, so I had to dial it back to 126 watts for the next 2:20. I ended up abandoning my "all- night" ride after 500 minutes. The hot-foot just would not go away.
https://www.strava.com/activities/503223957/analysis
It shows my average speed at 23.7 mph which is pretty close, as that is about what I can do on a track at that wattage.

 

[Eric Winn]

I'll try and hit my lap button at the start and finish of the meat of the ride

On Ride With GPS, you can select a segment of your ride on the ride timeline with your mouse and the data updates to just show the values for the selected segment. Kind of like being able to arbitrarily evaluate lap/split times after the fact without having to toggle a lap/split on your device.

Garmin Connect lets you zoom the timeline but the data metrics don't seem to reflect the "zoomed in" start and stop times in the data metrics. If there is a way to do it with Garmin Connect I didn't find it.

The Time in Zones tab should be useful to your evaluations.

-Eric

 

[RojoRacing]

Larry I honestly respect you dedication but question your sanity. I'm CA born and grown so the idea of doing only indoor activity for nearly half the year is not something I want to think about. I think testing for my FTP on a trainer would yield poor results right now because my motivation on a trainer is near nonexistent so it would be hard to get a true max effort. Maybe once I have a little more data I'll have a better idea of what wattage I should be trying to shoot for on the FTP test and I can avoid going out too hard.

Today I tried harder which was made easier because Monday's lunch route is essentially a hill climb. I rode the Mtb yesterday for 42 miles and +8000' so I think my body was a little fatigue because I couldn't get my HR near as high as I should have. I did improve my 20min max watt avg from 220ish last week to 300 today. I also just realized I had the auto calculated FTP tab off on my edge 520 switched off so I flipped it on to see what happens the next few rides.

 

[ratz]

Larry I honestly respect you dedication but question your sanity. I'm CA born and grown so the idea of doing only indoor activity for nearly half the year is not something I want to think about. I think testing for my FTP on a trainer would yield poor results right now because my motivation on a trainer is near nonexistent so it would be hard to get a true max effort. Maybe once I have a little more data I'll have a better idea of what wattage I should be trying to shoot for on the FTP test and I can avoid going out too hard.

Today I tried harder which was made easier because Monday's lunch route is essentially a hill climb. I rode the Mtb yesterday for 42 miles and +8000' so I think my body was a little fatigue because I couldn't get my HR near as high as I should have. I did improve my 20min max watt avg from 220ish last week to 300 today. I also just realized I had the auto calculated FTP tab off on my edge 520 switched off so I flipped it on to see what happens the next few rides.

Another way to go about it; is find a 1 CRIT race or a 1 hour TT; and just try and go for the win. You average Power for the event will basically be your FTP and should work great for building training metrics against. It's also a lot more in keeping with your go fast personality

If you don't like that; collect those fit files for about 30 days; and zip them up and email them to me; we'll throw them in WK04 and it will estimate your FTP within about 5%; and we'll just bump it up to account for racer personality and again you would be all good

 

[RojoRacing]

Not even sure where to find anything remotely resembling a road race around me that doesn't require some kind of licencing. From what I've understood in the past, is any time I've heard of a local TT it's always a set distance and much shorter then an hour. The other thing is everything in my area isn't flat and especially so when compared to most of the rides you east coast guys seems to do. I'll give it another week or so then maybe I'll give the 20 min x 0.95 on the trainer method a shot. I'm going to have to find my a very exciting supercross or moto gp race to watch to pull that off though

Sorry for being difficult and I really do appreciate the advice as I note everything for future use.

 

[LarryOz]

Larry I honestly respect you dedication but question your sanity. I'm CA born and grown so the idea of doing only indoor activity for nearly half the year is not something I want to think about.

Thanks Jason - It's not that I really "love" riding indoors, but when I have to go to work from just after 7am-5pm every day, and where the roads where I live are horrible (and dangerous) to ride on, riding indoors to train is basically my only option for much of the year. I guess I have learned to prefer it to riding on the roads because it is ultimately safer and I can get a much better workout for the short time I have.

 

[ratz]

I'll give it another week or so then maybe I'll give the 20 min x 0.95 on the trainer method a shot.

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201794984-20-Minute-vs-8-Minute-FTP-Test

My guess is you might like the 8minute test better. It's still an hour on the trainer but it's more interesting. that said the 20 minute one tends to be more for the long distance long hour guys.

Very loud rock music doesn't hurt the effort.

 

[jond]

welcome to power meter land jason.

i expect you will grow to love the metric. those FTP tests are bile driving tough especially the recommended frequency and method of on trainer. very hard to find a suitable on road hill that is even and over 20 minutes.

another book i especially like is "the time crunched cyclist" by chris carmichael. i found it useful to my laymans understanding and the explanations were detailed enough for me. importantly allowed results to improve rapidly. but i discovered the discipline of the trainer is not for me despite those quick measurable gains. so my trainer has gone back to being a second wet day in a row have to ride option. i too marvel at larry and the dedication of the climate time challenged.

great i discovered i prefer to enjoy my cycling my way rather than take it so seriously that it becomes a chore. each to their own fun in this broad church ..... which is all it is ever about unless you get paid .

if you buy the endorsed special edition it comes with sample epo ,testosterone hgh and a baggie for your blood transfusions.

interested in your decision to buy the vector pedals over the admittedly newer to market powertap pedals. what was your reasoning on choice of meter jason?

 

[jond]

DF bike is slower then the V.

of course it is. tee hee

 

[RojoRacing]

Vector pedals over the others based on two things.

1. I have a friend who is nearly my twin in physique and ability who has already been using them for a year with no issues. I figure I could gather info from him as I learn.

2. I got a 40% discount (sorry it's not for me to share)

 

[jond]

2. I got a 40% discount (sorry it's not for me to share)

truly the best reason to buy excellent work well done . love a bargain.