Website suggestions for educating self re: Rotor Q rings

[Bob10]

I am a "recovering Cruzbike builder/rider" who had moved on to other bents, and plan to return to the fold.
I'd like to spend a good bit of time educating myself regarding the optimal components to use to be kind to my knee. Had a knee replacement and have been riding bents for years with it...no problema.

However in my 60's I want to again optimize my ability to more comfortably climb hills and ride longer distances; to be kinder to my knee.

At some point in the next year I plan to purchase a used Silvio 1.5, or perhaps a newer version if I can get down to Bob Matson's place in NYC and see what if feels like to recline further.

OK, enough background.
I visited the Rotor site and am searching this Forum as well.

Can you recommend sites that will explain the advantages of these rings, as well as how to install them?

I will also want to look at a super smooth BB, wheels/hubs and any other components to increase ride efficiency/ease.

I am using American Classic hubs and an after-market ceramic BB on my Linear Limo.
I have plenty of time to educate myself....in fact that's half the fun.
Any suggestions?
Many thanks,
Bob

 

[castlerobber]

Start here:
http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/q-ring-upgrade-ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.7784/

 

[LarryOz]

I was searching for a thread about Enduro XD-15 BB for you and figured I might as well steer you here:
http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/vendetta-v20-build-diary-2016.10189/#post-118508

Even though it is about a V20 build, it has tons of useful information about just about every component you would ever put on a Silvio or Vendetta (both high and low ends of the spectrum)
Happy reading - come up for air every once and a while and you'll be fine!

 

[Bob10]

Many thanks guys.
Just got through the first URL.....LOTS of good stuff!
Now onto LarryOz's suggestion.

I have a REALLY basic question.
For years I have ridden triples on many bents, including my Silvio 1.0 build.
I've used triples to take advantage of the granny gear on long climbs here in New England.
I read that one fellow thought the compact with 50/34 setup didn't help out enough for long inclines.
Is there a Compact setup with Q rings that can effectively enable me to avoid a triple?
Bob

 

[Bob10]

I just finished Ratz's build posting a few hours ago......very cool and incredibly helpful.
I read his Silvio build on BROL. I recall learning loads of stuff from his postings when I was on this Forum years ago.
Great suggestions....

 

[ratz]

Many thanks guys.
Just got through the first URL.....LOTS of good stuff!
Now onto LarryOz's suggestion.

I have a REALLY basic question.
For years I have ridden triples on many bents, including my Silvio 1.0 build.
I've used triples to take advantage of the granny gear on long climbs here in New England.
I read that one fellow thought the compact with 50/34 setup didn't help out enough for long inclines.
Is there a Compact setup with Q rings that can effectively enable me to avoid a triple?
Bob

Triples can be fitted if you carefully select a Shimano Drive Train; there are members here that can help with the details.

For Double and QRings. Here's a baseline summary of a good solution.

• Get a 110 BCD Crank
• Use Q34 or Q36 for your little ring; or a QXL36
• For big ring get a Q50,Q52 or Q46
• Use SRAM Drive Train
• Use Exact Actuation compatible SRAM product to mix and match road and mtb gear. (Get the 11sp SRAM Rival stuff if on budget)
• Use a long cage rear derailleur (Gx 2x10) can be used with 11sp shifters
• Use the PG-1130 11sp cassette to get 11-42 (11sp) gearing https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/pg-1130-cassette

There is no 10sp wide range cassette without using after market stuff; hence staying in the 11sp products. The MTB GX 10 speed derailleur is Exact Actuation so it works with road bike stuff. Derailleur are dumb they don't know 11 from 10 speed they just know cable pull so this 10speed derailleur will work with 11sp shifter. The GX 2x11 is X-actuation and will not.

• I think the QXL36 is better it's smaller than the Q34 and bigger than the Q36 excellent for climbing long grades; the QXL38 is better fur punchy stuff.

FootNote: the X9 Derailleur also works great but it's going the way of the doddo and is hard to find right now.

Here's a complete list of SRAM Exact-Actuation products; any thing on this list can be mixed and matched.

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/technologies/exact-actuation

The HORIZON stuff is 1x only you could run it on a 2x system but you won't be happy because there is no pivot i the derailleur causing chain drop and chain wear.

 

[Bob10]

Bob,
MANY thanks for a really helpful post.....great stuff here.
I am starting my research for a Silvio.....likely to be purchased in March or about that time.
Need to learn about Q rings....also about how I'll want to set up the bent....good stuff to read and think about... and most of it will be in this Forum.

A question:
Given my wanting ease of hill climbing (knee issues).....is it preferable to go with a triple with a granny (as I have done).....or now with the option of an 11 speed with 11-42 gearing and use of Q rings? I'd like to take advantage of the new technology and lesser weight.

Although I've ridden for awhile, am just now beginning to understand the overall gear ranges resulting from using different component combos.
Time to start copying/pasting for all of this good stuff.

Thanks again!
Bob

 

[LarryOz]

I'm definitely no expert in this area, but from what I have seen, heard and ridden myself, it is my impression that the triple setup would only be needed for a super heavy laden bike that is going to be expected to climb extremely long and arduous climbs. I envision someone doing a cross-country and carrying all there food and gear along. Even with the triple, you end up with a lot of overlapping gearing.
With the advent of the 11-sp, and options for some fairly small inner chain rings (and elliptical), I think you will be able to accomplish what you need with that.
Good Luck - can't wait to read about your journey!

 

[ratz]

.is it preferable to go with a triple with a granny (as I have done).....or now with the option of an 11 speed with 11-42 gearing and use of Q rings?

That's the boundary of subjective. but the water looks warm.....

• Gearing always has overlap; with obviously the delta between the front ring controlling total range and the size of the over lap.
• The Triple was invented in the beginnings of the MTB era when all road bikes of the 130BCD; which allowed a minimum of a 39T
• The Trip migrated to the road bike to break the 39T barrier and add more gears in the age of 8 speed drive trains.
• Fast forward to today and the 110 BCD compact double and now we can get to 34T;
• Most non-racers accept they don't really need bigger than 50T (unless ego interferes).
• On a road bike 34T front and 32T rear is about as much as any one could need.
• On touring bikes and recumbent a cassette with 36T-42T can still be desirable in some situation
• Mixing Road and MTB gear we can get all the way to 10-42T rear and 34/50T front

My opinion is that 34T/42T is below stall speed and 90-95% of the people that tried to ride that slow on a hill would tip over on a two wheel recumbent.

So rules of thumb; when you select your front you can have up to a 16T delta try to keep that at least 12T so that you have enough range and not a silly over lap. The front selection controls your top-end speed and the over lap of the gears. This is because almost all cassettes come with an 11T or 10T. The rear selection control your low end; and your cadence control based on the size of the biggest cog and the spacing of the cogs respectively.

The one huge advantage of the triple is that you can use a tight cassette like a 11-23 which will give you very precise cadence control. The triple will then compensate for the lack of low end range of that tight cassette.


Nothing wrong with the triple; in my case I prefer the "purple" effect of my Q-rings; mentally I think they help me there for I ride them regards of any supporting info.

When you think thought this stuff on Q-ring consider the Q-ring Max diameter when thinking about speed; and the Min diameter when thinking about climbing; that's generally how it "feels"

 

[telephd]

FWIW - I ride round rings and have a 40T cog on my hill riding cassette. I use 34-36 without any difficulty and use 34-40 as my bail out gear. It is above stall speed for me (3.5-5mph) but wander on the road a little more and have to pay a lot more attention riding next to others when going that slow. I think Rick also has a 40T cog and that he rides with Rotor rings. Maybe he will chime in.....

 

[ratz]

FWIW - I ride round rings and have a 40T cog on my hill riding cassette. I use 34-36 without any difficulty and use 34-40 as my bail out gear. It is above stall speed for me (3.5-5mph) but wander on the road a little more and have to pay a lot more attention riding next to others when going that slow. I think Rick also has a 40T cog and that he rides with Rotor rings. Maybe he will chime in.....

That's my problem up hill at that speed 3-4mph I use an in appropriate amount of road on anything but a trike.... including a DF. Walking is 3mph any how.

 

[LMT]

On another note, and you might already been doing this. Do you use pedals with free float? As these are the most knee friendly ime.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

FWIW - I ride round rings and have a 40T cog on my hill riding cassette. I use 34-36 without any difficulty and use 34-40 as my bail out gear. It is above stall speed for me (3.5-5mph) but wander on the road a little more and have to pay a lot more attention riding next to others when going that slow. I think Rick also has a 40T cog and that he rides with Rotor rings. Maybe he will chime in.....

Actually, my setup is:
10 speed (I may explore 11 next year for fun, maybe)
Rotor Qrings 52 X 34
Shimano 10 speed cassette 11-36 modified to 13-42
SRAM Force 22 Yaw FD
SRAM Via GT long cage RD
150mm SRAM Apex crankset shortened by bikesmith
SRAM 10 speed Rival brifters

I am able to use all gears. Big big and small small, however I do only use the exstream X combos briefly if I need to.

Shifting is great, however it takes a lot of tinkering to get it right.

Climbing on long hills, or lazy climbing in 34 chainring X 42 Wolf cog my rang is about 4.5 to 5.7 mph. 5.7 is a pretty fast spin ( to lazy to do math) 4.5 is getting close to stall speed for me (but fitness level can have an impact on this). The hill grade %, well that just depends on my fitness level. In these speeds I'm still feeling confident and straight, no problem there. The 34 X 42 combo comes in real handy when my fitness level is low, like it is now. The better fit I am, carrying less weight, the less I use the extreme gear combo. With what I personal know now, I could even go lower geared, like 34 X 44 as long as I'm not spinning out and get some resistance in pedaling force, I think I could get down to possibly 3 mph and still maintain a somewhat straight line. As a reference, when I'm riding on the MUP in congested foot traffic I get can get walking speed slow, but it's not a continued cadence, more like spin coast spin coast, etc.

Be Kind to Your Knees

Spin them pedals faster will put less stress on the knees.
Shorter crank arms help decrease the extreme angle on the knee bends
Q-rings: Rotor say they help eliminate or limit knee pain
Stretching tight muscles and ligaments will help
Correct boom adjustment, very important
Free floating pedals, such as Frogs with the mod to add left and right float.

For me this was ditching SPD's and going with the Frog's and float mod.​

 

[DavidCH]

Cor reading this has given me an interesting idea of climbing a set of hills that I haven't climbed on the same route. I have a 36/54t Q Ring combo and a 11:32t 11 speed cassette. I haven't found a hill which I can't climb yet but I don't live in CA.

So I will let you know how I fair. Personally the hills I climb now I keep a steady eye on my heart rate. I don't want it going higher that 136 BPM so having that in mind I take the hills easy and I am not completely done at the top. I can wheel spin in the smallest two gears if I put too much power down.

If you are spinning try to sit up more as it puts more traction on the tire.

(I try to keep 136 BPM on the downhills... But most of that is caused by adrenalin)

 

[LarryOz]

Personally the hills I climb now I keep a steady eye on my heart rate. I don't want it going higher that 136 BPM

David, why do you try and keep your HR below 136bpm?
I can hardly go up any hill of any length with any decent speed and keep my pulse under 136!
Specific aerobic training regime, or condition that limits you in some way?

 

[DavidCH]

David, why do you try and keep your HR below 136bpm?
I can hardly go up any hill of any length with any decent speed and keep my pulse under 136!
Specific aerobic training regime, or condition that limits you in some way?

Larry,

Isn't the natural boyo tendency to go as fast and as long as you can muster... Certainly old school behaviour and not good for the heart. So I did see a video trainer programme about Tour de France sprinters sprinting up hills once but I am pretty sure their hearts were doing 180 BPM ... So for the fun of it... What would you recommend?

8% gradient?
10% gradient?
12% gradient?

(It's just that I am on a fat burning training programme and want to keep my heart rate regular at 136)

Just saw this to inspire all of us for tomorrow's epic ride

 

[McWheels]

If Q-rings are the start of something, how about the K-Drive? Not sure it's been designed with knees in mind, but it takes the principle that much further. Also not that clear where to get one from, but it looks fun.

http://www.deferredprocrastination.co.uk/blog/2012/kingsbury-k-drive/

 

[ratz]

If Q-rings are the start of something, how about the K-Drive? Not sure it's been designed with knees in mind, but it takes the principle that much further. Also not that clear where to get one from, but it looks fun.

http://www.deferredprocrastination.co.uk/blog/2012/kingsbury-k-drive/

I can hear the debates raging on some forums now over the lost mechanical efficiency at the secondary crank sprocket. Not that anyone whose never tried one would engage in such practices.

 

[Bob10]

I'm definitely no expert in this area, but from what I have seen, heard and ridden myself, it is my impression that the triple setup would only be needed for a super heavy laden bike that is going to be expected to climb extremely long and arduous climbs. I envision someone doing a cross-country and carrying all there food and gear along. Even with the triple, you end up with a lot of overlapping gearing.
With the advent of the 11-sp, and options for some fairly small inner chain rings (and elliptical), I think you will be able to accomplish what you need with that.
Good Luck - can't wait to read about your journey!

 

[Bob10]

Thanks Larry....
After reading Ratz's comments....I hope to move towards an 11 spd setup.....will be figuring it all out this year....
Bob