Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[super slim]

Don’t be confused. It’s usually necessary to involve your upper body to ride a vendetta mbb though some skilled pilots can indeed ride no hands.

So you either believe that upper body involvement contributes to forward momentum or it does not.

Might I suggest the yes camp are all but one. ( ambiguity intended to not offend) I’m nice like that.

If you believe it does not then you may as well ride a fixed boom machine and not waste energy pulling pushing your bars around a pivot point.

Of course upper body involvement does help propel the bike forward and is fundamental to the platform.

What else is my upper body doing if not........... spin drying the dirty washing. Please.

How much..... as much as 30% extra. For me no way. I’m built like a cyclist.

But it’s real and works. Especially at lower effort and cadence.

It’s a skill.

At the pointy end the addition is not so noticeable as you’re maxed out anyhow and you’re required to involve your upper body.

Thing is it would be possible to engineer out your legs and ride arms only to prove that upper body input moves the mbb platform forward.

Next.

On this RARE occasion, I actually agree with my NSW fellow cruzbike rider!!!
I thought the reason that Cruzbikes out climb RWD recumbents, is the ability of the MBB to allow the upper body to assist in power delivery????!!!

 

[Osiris]

Don’t be confused. It’s usually necessary to involve your upper body to ride a vendetta mbb though some skilled pilots can indeed ride no hands.

So you either believe that upper body involvement contributes to forward momentum or it does not.

Might I suggest the yes camp are all but one.

You might suggest that, but only if you want to provide a textbook example of an argumentum ad populum fallacy. At the risk of pointing out the obvious, a false claim would be false even if everyone believed it to be true. A true claim would be true even if everyone believed it to be false. Someone may have good reasons for holding a false belief, and someone may have bad reasons for holding a true belief. Perhaps that's because whether a claim happens to be true or false has nothing to do with belief.

If you believe it does not then you may as well ride a fixed boom machine and not waste energy pulling pushing your bars around a pivot point.

Except that there are perfectly good reasons to prefer a Cruzbike to a fixed boom recumbent which are completely independent of whether the claim concerning handlebar wagging is true. Do we expend more energy riding an MBB than a fixed boom recumbent. Absolutely. Is energy conservation all that matters when deciding what to ride? Absolutely not. If it were, I'd be spending all my time riding my fixed boom bents, and I certainly wouldn't be spending any time riding my road bike.

Of course upper body involvement does help propel the bike forward and is fundamental to the platform.

What else is my upper body doing if not........... spin drying the dirty washing. Please.

The only obvious effect of moving the handlebars is that it causes the bent to change direction. Anything beyond that is, so far, just speculation buttressed by bad arguments, bad evidence, and bias confirmation.

How much..... as much as 30% extra. For me no way. I’m built like a cyclist.

But it’s real and works. Especially at lower effort and cadence.

And the proof of that would be? Oh wait, there isn't any, it's just an argument by assertion. As rational individuals, we can and should try to do better than that. Or we can focus instead on the things that Cruzbikes demonstrably do better than fixed boom recumbents, like eliminating the problem of heel strikes in tight turns, chain interference with the front wheel, and power losses resulting from an idler wheel and/or guide tubes. To the list I would also add the advantage of being able to set pedal reach and pedal height independently without having to move the seat up and down the frame (eg: Bacchettas, Rans, and Schlitter recumbents). All of these things hold true whether or not swinging the handlebars in a particular way adds any power to your pedal strokes.

 

[Osiris]

On this RARE occasion, I actually agree with my NSW fellow cruzbike rider!!!
I thought the reason that Cruzbikes out climb RWD recumbents, is the ability of the MBB to allow the upper body to assist in power delivery????!!!

What proof do you have that Cruzbikes outclimb RWD recumbents?

 

[trplay]

Fortunately I've got the next two days to repeat the experiment, and I'm confident that this type of testing procedure will answer the question one way or the other.

What proof do you have that Cruzbikes outclimb RWD recumbents?

Dad gum it , I thought you were going to resolve this for us. Now I see you've pulled out the ol' boat and are out trolling again. Dock the boat and come Zwift with us . We really could use your power numbers to help establish some recumbent credibility in the overall cycling world. Unfortunately, my powerful 130 watts isn't getting the job done. Why don't you do a run up the Alp de Zwift on a Cruzbike and then one on the M-5. That would be fun.

 

[Osiris]

Dad gum it , I thought you were going to resolve this for us. Now I see you've pulled out the ol' boat and are out trolling again.

It's an honest question. I think the answer will be pretty revealing.

Dock the boat and come Zwift with us . We really could use your power numbers to help establish some recumbent credibility in the overall cycling world. Unfortunately, my powerful 130 watts isn't getting the job done. Why don't you do a run up the Alp de Zwift on a Cruzbike and then one on the M-5. That would be fun.

No climbing or long distance races for me, I'm afraid. But if it's a 200 meter race on flat ground, count me in.

 

[trplay]

No climbing or long distance races for me, I'm afraid. But if it's a 200 meter race on flat ground, count me in.

Ha! Don't look at it as a race. Look at it as a way to answer your conumdrum all by yourself as opposed to having someone else give you the answer. Simply get on a Cruzbike and ride up Alp de Zwift. Then get on as many other bikes of your choice and do the same. No race, no stress, no pressure, just answers.

 

[Osiris]

Ha! Don't look at it as a race. Look at it as a way to answer your conumdrum all by yourself as opposed to having someone else give you the answer. Simply get on a Cruzbike and ride up Alp de Zwift. Then get on as many other bikes of your choice and do the same. No race, no stress, no pressure, just answers.

For that I'd need to borrow your custom built trainer so I can waggle the handlebars. I've already got reams of power data from my other bents to compare my V20 to. Without handlebar wagging, it has no advantage in the climbs. I've always hated climbing, but if I can get the handlebar technique to work, it may change my mind about hills.

 

[trplay]

No need to waggle the handlebars for this. Do some self learning as opposed heavily relying on hearsay accumulations and at the same time help move the recumbent community forward. Your data derived from different environments, and conditions hasn't answered the question. If it has why do you still ask?

 

[trplay]

No climbing or long distance races for me, I'm afraid. But if it's a 200 meter race on flat ground, count me in.

OK you are counted in. You are aware all Zwift courses have a flat 200 meter sprint trap on them? Several things occur when you pass through them. First the fastest rider during this hour will earn and wear the green sprint jersey. Second your times over the last 30 days are recorded in finishing order. Throw down a name like "recumbent guy" or something and start grabbing the green jersey using different bikes. Meanwhile, see how your the Cruzbike times fall in relation to your other bikes times. This will give you a real world grasp of the beauty of the Cruzbike triangle.

 

[Osiris]

No need to waggle the handlebars for this. Do some self learning as opposed heavily relying on hearsay accumulations and at the same time help move the recumbent community forward. Your data derived from different environments, and conditions hasn't answered the question. If it has why do you still ask?

Aside from a few inconclusive tests, all my climbing data on the V20 was done just riding it normally, which is to say without wagging the handlebars to try to get extra power. All that tells me is that the V20 is not a particularly good climber when ridden like any other recumbent, but it doesn't answer the question we're interested in. To answer that question, I need to perform the test I mentioned several days ago and repeat it a dozen times under identical conditions to see if I get consistent results. It takes a dedicated science geek to do that sort of thing. Fortunately my temperament is perfectly suited to the task, so it's only a matter of time until the mystery is solved.

 

[trplay]

It takes a dedicated science geek to do that sort of thing.

This is where we have a huge divergence of opinion. For a bike to be "faster" (create more power, whatever) one must be able to get on the said bike and go faster than he could if he were on another bike. A science geeks numbers mean nothing unless they are validated on the bike. Most people understand that the "fastest bike" is not the same bike for everyone. I'd love to see you ride two different bikes up Alp de Zwift and see what happens. My bet is you don't need a science geek to give you the numbers.

 

[Osiris]

OK you are counted in. You are aware all Zwift courses have a flat 200 meter sprint trap on them? Several things occur when you pass through them. First the fastest rider during this hour will earn and wear the green sprint jersey. Second your times over the last 30 days are recorded in finishing order. Throw down a name like "recumbent guy" or something and start grabbing the green jersey using different bikes. Meanwhile, see how your the Cruzbike times fall in relation to your other bikes times. This will give you a real world grasp of the beauty of the Cruzbike triangle.

Just to be clear, I know almost nothing about Zwift. Does it take into account critical variables like bike/rider weight and aerodynamic efficiency?

 

[trplay]

You set the weight. The other variables you list are set by the software. In other words, aero will be the same for your comparison. Everything will be equal except the power you are putting from your feet through the power train. Perfect for testing how much power your body can get to the wheel which is the real heart of the matter.

 

[Osiris]

This is where we have a huge divergence of opinion. For a bike to be "faster" (create more power, whatever) one must be able to get on the said bike and go faster than he could if he were on another bike.

But that result would depend crucially on aerodynamic efficiency. I can produce at least 100 watts more on my DF than I can on my M5, yet the M5 will go much faster than my DF, even with considerably less power. So if Zwift doesn't factor in aerodynamic efficiency and only calculates speed by power output, it would mean that my best times on Zwift would be on my Specialized Venge, when in the real world, the Venge is my slowest bike.

A science geeks numbers mean nothing unless they are validated on the bike. Most people understand that the "fastest bike" is not the same bike for everyone. I'd love to see you ride two different bikes up Alp de Zwift and see what happens. My bet is you don't need a science geek to give you the numbers.

But what I'm interested in is whether the handlebar wagging technique will actually produce more power, or alternatively, allow me to produce the same power over a longer time interval. That's something that can only be determined by employing the handlebar wagging technique and comparing it to previous results when I wasn't using it. To use a specific example, I know from experience that without wagging the handlebars I can climb a certain segment at an average output of 300 watts for a distance of .6 miles. I've done it many, many times. So IF the handlebar wagging technique actually works, I should either be able to climb that same segment for .6 miles at an even greater power output, or, I should be able to ride further than .6 miles at the same power output. Since there are bound to be variations in my strength levels from day to day, I'd have to perform this experiment many times to be sure of the result.

 

[Osiris]

You set the weight. The other variables you list are set by the software. In other words, aero will be the same for your comparison. Everything will be equal except the power you are putting from your feet through the power train. Perfect for testing how much power your body can get to the wheel which is the real heart of the matter.

But that's something I already know the answer to. When I broke the local 200 meter record several years ago, my peak power output was 1291 watts. On my M5 CHR, the highest power I've been able to produce in a sprint was 1150 watts. In both cases power was measured with the Garmin Vector pedals, which doesn't take drivetrain losses into account. In my recent 1000 meter record, I wasn't aiming for maximum power, but the most power I could maintain for that particular segment:

 

[trplay]

Your moving the goal posts. Peak power years ago has no relevance to the amount of power you can produce zig zaging on a Cruzbike today. You have to measure your peak power of today. But, you really should take your 1300 watts of sprint power to Zwift. You would love it and with an added recumbent name it would drive the Df'ers nuts.

 

[Osiris]

Your moving the goal posts. Peak power years ago has no relevance to the amount of power you can produce zig zaging on a Cruzbike today. You have to measure your peak power of today. But, you really should take your 1300 watts of sprint power to Zwift. You would love it and with an added recumbent name it would drive the Df'ers nuts.

OK, now I'm really confused. You were talking about me participating on Zwift, right? If I were on Zwift, my bike/bent would be on a trainer, with the front wheel locked firmly in place so that no handlebar movement is possible. Why then are we talking about "zig zagging"? When would I be zig zagging on a trainer? Now, if the conversation has shifted to how much peak power I can produce currently, either on the road or on the trainer, I wouldn't know for certain. But one thing I do know for certain is that I can produce the most power on my DF, regardless of whether it's peak power for one second or sustained power over 200 meters. In no conceivable case would I be faster on Zwift on my V20, or any recumbent for that matter. In the real world, the result would be the opposite; I would be slowest on my DF and fastest on my M1, followed by my M5, followed by my V20.

 

[trplay]

OK, now I'm really confused. But one thing I do know for certain is that I can produce the most power on my DF, regardless of whether it's peak power for one second or sustained power over 200 meters. In no conceivable case would I be faster on Zwift on my V20, or any recumbent for that matter.

Couple reason for the confusion. The real jest for encouraging participation in Zwift is for our primary discussion of the V20 ability to produce power while climbing not your sprinting ability. The Zwift sprints against DF's is a sidebar based on you posting your sprinting prowess. I simply recognize it would be a hoot for you to take that skill set to the sprint traps since your words were "count me in". A lot of the other confusion stems from you are confused on the push pull technique. You continually bring up "Peak Power". Many of us believe the power gain is achieved in the moderate cadence area of cruising. Peak power with push pull is simply too high a cadence to maintain a rhythmic synchronization for the average Joe. This has been stated a lot but you continually revert to peak power. I believe if you simply rode up the alp de Zwift on a couple different recumbent bikes you would have your answer. Now whether or not you will benefit from the Cruzbike front fork or not I don't know but I do believe once you get part way up the climb your fixation for peak power will have dissipated. Then perhaps you will recognize the value for other types of power increases and the Cruzbike front triangle. You don't need the Push pull for that. So far, all your pontificating to date has led to a big zero. You state you are certain about you power production. We are talking about power production while climbing (ie: Push pull claim). Show us the money, Climb the alp de Zwift, it should be fun.
One question though. if you aren't into climbing why are you so fanatical about the issue?

 

[Osiris]

Couple reason for the confusion. The real jest for encouraging participation in Zwift is for our primary discussion of the V20 ability to produce power while climbing not your sprinting ability. The Zwift sprints against DF's is a sidebar based on you posting your sprinting prowess. I simply recognize it would be a hoot for you to take that skill set to the sprint traps since your words were "count me in".

OK, so with respect to Zwift, were you talking about me using any bike or the V20 in particular?

A lot of the other confusion stems from you are confused on the push pull technique. You continually bring up "Peak Power". Many of us believe the power gain is achieved in the moderate cadence area of cruising. Peak power with push pull is simply too high a cadence to maintain a rhythmic synchronization for the average Joe.

You came in late to the discussion, and I think you may have missed part of the conversation between Balor and me. What I observed was that testing the handlebar wagging technique at anything less than maximal power output wouldn't produce reliable data because it's impossible to know, at power levels well below maximum, whether wagging the handlebars is actually what's responsible for any power increase, or whether you're simply pedaling harder. At maximum power levels, it's impossible to pedal harder, so an increase in power would have to be the result of upper body muscle recruitment (or so the theory goes). It's not true that peak power testing requires high cadence, as you maintain above. On a steep hill, cadence can be quite low while power output remains very high. Testing on flats isn't feasible because your cadence will continually increase until you reach a pace where maintaining synchrony between your arm and leg movements will be very difficult if not impossible. That's why I said a week ago that a much better test of the theory would be to pick a power level that you know you've been able to maintain for a given time (or a given distance) without handlebar wagging, and then see if you can extend that time (or distance) when applying the handlebar wagging technique. I already know the answer to the first question, but I don't yet know the answer to the second. It's entirely conceivable at this point that there will be no difference at all.

Then perhaps you will recognize the value for other types of power increases and the Cruzbike front triangle. You don't need the Push pull for that.

What other advantages are these? Certainly none that I've seen. I pedal up the same hills every weekend. I've been riding this loop since 2011, and I know exactly how fast I can take each of the climbs. I know from comparing my speeds and power outputs that my V20 has no advantage over my other bents on these hills when riding it normally (no handlebar wagging). So whatever mysterious powers you think the front triangle confers, it's not showing up in my data.

 

[trplay]

OK, so with respect to Zwift, were you talking about me using any bike or the V20 in particular?

Use any recumbent you like, mix them up. Just use the word "recumbent" somewhere in your name to tick off the Df'ers.

You came in late to the discussion, and I think you may have missed part of the conversation

Lets see: trplay member since 2013; Osiris member since Jan 2018. No, not a late comer. What you don't know is this discussion has been around a lot longer than you have. Give us something new or even better, something useful like making recumbents competitive in Zwift.

What other advantages are these? Certainly none that I've seen. I pedal up the same hills every weekend. I've been riding this loop since 2011, and I know exactly how fast I can take each of the climbs. I know from comparing my speeds and power outputs that my V20 has no advantage over my other bents on these hills when riding it normally (no handlebar wagging). So whatever mysterious powers you think the front triangle confers, it's not showing up in my data.

Looks like you found your answer, time to stop digging and start Zwifting.