Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

[trplay]

I wish you guys would reach a conclusion to this argument so I can determine if I should get a Vendetta or not. 20 pages and no firm conclusion. I am so confused.

Don't get a Cruzbike. I need every marginal gain advantage I can get. Wish no one had them but me.

Jason I like your long winded diatribe (I think) , But I would say under the 500 watts on the Cruzbike is proactive with push- pull synchronization and the 1000 watt description is proactive by pushing only with no pull against the bars while breaching the back. Push-pull at 1000 watts (assuming I could get to 1000 wattts) OK lets say 750 watts for reality. Push pull at 750 would have me in the ditch. Probably even 500 watts.

 

[Balor]

I think the test protocol is a bit flawed, and I've stated that before.
How does one differentiate "using too much leg power" and "actually being successful at boom-swinging"?
If you stare at your power meter and try to get result what you want, you WILL get that result, that's you our mind works.
Proper experiment should involve some blinding, and to discount "being too reserved" - you need to simply go "all-out" - as hard as possible, as long as possible, to failure - all the while recording, but by no means monitoring your progress. You cannot be blinded to the fact you are "boom swinging", but that should do, I think.
Having some sort of extra inscentive (like a stubborn KOM) should be good as well.

 

[Osiris]

I wish you guys would reach a conclusion to this argument so I can determine if I should get a Vendetta or not. 20 pages and no firm conclusion. I am so confused.

It's the best all-purpose bent there is, in my opinion. That remains true whether or not handlebar waggling does anything useful.

 

[trplay]

I think the test protocol is a bit flawed,

Probably is flawed but since when has being flawed slowed you guys down? Going all out doesn't work for me simply because push pull is unstable for me at "all out". My belief is it can help give you a boost climbing which my little ziggy zaggy runs support (15-20 watts). At the point I get to where I can go all out might be interesting when comparing to my Zwift max output ever . But this is really a very different question than the original querry. If I exceeded those numbers it would be telling but I sincerely doubt those results would be accepted by the non believers anyway.

 

[Osiris]

I think the test protocol is a bit flawed, and I've stated that before.
How does one differentiate "using too much leg power" and "actually being successful at boom-swinging"?
If you stare at your power meter and try to get result what you want, you WILL get that result, that's you our mind works.
Proper experiment should involve some blinding, and to discount "being too reserved" - you need to simply go "all-out" - as hard as possible, as long as possible, to failure - all the while recording, but by no means monitoring your progress. You cannot be blinded to the fact you are "boom swinging", but that should do, I think.
Having some sort of extra inscentive (like a stubborn KOM) should be good as well.

I found that going "all-out" on the Vendetta while trying to swing the handlebars in sync with the pedal strokes is impossible. In a sprint yesterday I went from zero watts to 680 watts in a matter of seconds. My cadence increased so rapidly that I found it impossible to perfectly match my pedal strokes to the pulls on the handlebars, which resulted in some weaving until my power production evened out at around 34 mph. Trying that while wagging the handlebars at the same time would practically guarantee a nasty crash. To save myself a trip to the hospital, I would need to do it on a modified trainer like the one trplay built.

 

[RojoRacing]

I found that going "all-out" on the Vendetta while trying to swing the handlebars in sync with the pedal strokes is impossible. In a sprint yesterday I went from zero watts to 680 watts in a matter of seconds. My cadence increased so rapidly that I found it impossible to perfectly match my pedal strokes to the pulls on the handlebars, which resulted in some weaving until my power production evened out at around 34 mph. Trying that while wagging the handlebars at the same time would practically guarantee a nasty crash. To save myself a trip to the hospital, I would need to do it on a modified trainer like the one trplay built.

It requires practice and technique to go from a steady 200 watts strait to 1000 watts on any bike, I can do it just fine outdoors and on the trainer. I feel like I pull harder on the bars when on the trainer going for those zwift racing wins simply because I'm all locked in place and can afford to get a little crazy. There's a large amount of flex in the boom and the bars when I do this and the whole front of the bike feels a little noodley(soft). Outdoors I must being pulling on the bars just as hard because that's how Causality works, don't understand look it up. I will say that I do swerve slightly under initial load but not enough to cause myself worry. The whole process feels a bit more fluid outside with the bike free to move so it feels like there is less structural flex in the bikes frame but it could be my imagination because when controlling a sprint effort you're not exactly analyzing your frame flex.

why would I have to pull so hard on the bars when sprinting indoors on a setup with a completely fixed boom? well that's because I need to stabilize my body's position in relation to the bike. It's the same whether the boom in free to swing or not.

 

[paco1961]

This has been a very interesting ongoing read . . . So I decided to do some non empirical testing on this mornings ride. About 40 miles into the loop there’s a nice consistent hill of maybe 7% for about 3 miles. I was in the lead group behind 4 DFs who I know well enough to know they would keep a steady pace of about 15mph. So I got on the back of the group and matched their pace for a bit, then in turn moved into each of 3 climbing techniques with an eye on hr to keep the overall effort as consistent as possible.

First was a modest zig zag where I first focused on matching my push/pull with my pedal stroke with minimal zig. Then I gradually increased the intensity of the push/pull to induce a bit of zig. Fine tuned it so I wasn’t wobbling all over the road but cutting a very shallow S line.

Second mode was just sinking back into the cushy CB seat and pressing away, keeping as straight a line as possible.

Third mode was down shift and spin like hell.

Drum roll please . . .

In third place was the zig zag. While I settled into a pattern pretty easily I didn’t find that I was any more efficient than on my initial pedaling along at the start of the hill. Lost a small bit of ground to the leaders.

Second place was the high speed spin. Now I’ve never been a good spinner. Show me a 35-40 year competetive runner turned cyclist and I’ll show you someone who is a better masher than spinner. I did not lose ground to the group as I did on the zig zag but I didn’t gain ground either.

And the winner is . . . Just sitting back and pressing away. There was still plenty of pushing and pulling going on but a much straighter line than the zig. With the straight line push I gained on and caught the “control” group

No power meters. No Zwift officials. No wind tunnel or finite element analysis. Just an old guy on a cool bike who, when finished futzin around w the ziggin and zaggin, dropped the best of the Saturday am group and rode off into the mist . . .

 

[trplay]

And there you have it! You got Ziggers, you got Zaggers, you got number boys, you got geniuses, you got Cat one racers, you got slugs (me), and they all have the answer, and none are the same. As it should be. Ride what you like and like what you ride. Ya'll come show me all your magic on Zwift some time.

 

[Balor]

why would I have to pull so hard on the bars when sprinting indoors on a setup with a completely fixed boom? well that's because I need to stabilize my body's position in relation to the bike. It's the same whether the boom in free to swing or not.

Well, that's what I've been talking basically for years - 'bracing, bracing, bracing'! It is VERY hard to properly brace yourself without bar-pulling on a bent with controls that are fine-tuned for aero. It does not directly contribute to leg power all, but it can make your leg power delivery much more efficient... again, that's my theory.

irst was a modest zig zag where I first focused on matching my push/pull with my pedal stroke with minimal zig. Then I gradually increased the intensity of the push/pull to induce a bit of zig.

What kind of 'zig' though? You sure you were 'counterswinging' the boom *into* your leg?
Anyway, it totally makes sense that even if you add some upper body power on Vendetta, it might still end up being slower due to extra rolling friction losses. It might still be possible on an other, purpose-build bent (I don't claim that would be mine, it is still far from purpose built for THAT), but the setup might be so unwieldy (very wide bars and q-factor for instance) that it would be faster ONLY up 6+ deg slopes.

I found that going "all-out" on the Vendetta while trying to swing the handlebars in sync with the pedal strokes is impossible. In a sprint yesterday I went from zero watts to 680 watts in a matter of seconds. My cadence increased so rapidly that I found it impossible to perfectly match my pedal strokes to the pulls on the handlebars, which resulted in some weaving until my power production evened out at around 34 mph.

Wow, I never meant *that* kind of sprint. That is indeed dangerous, especially without a LOT of practice. I mean something like 60-70 RPM climb up a steep slope or something.

 

[Osiris]

What kind of 'zig' though? You sure you were 'counterswinging' the boom *into* your leg?

That raises an interesting point we haven't talked about before. On the theory that pulling the pedals towards your leg adds power, wouldn't performing the technique incorrectly cause a power loss according to the same principle? The point is that even performing the technique poorly should result in different power readings, so it's not the case that the theory can only be proved or disproved by someone who has mastered the art of handlebar wagging.

Wow, I never meant *that* kind of sprint. That is indeed dangerous, especially without a LOT of practice. I mean something like 60-70 RPM climb up a steep slope or something.

But you're talking about maxing out your power production, which for stronger riders would result in power spikes of over 1000 watts. It's hard enough to coordinate the pedal stroke with handlebar movements at much lower power outputs than that, so I couldn't possibly perform the sort of test you have in mind except on a stationary trainer.

 

[Balor]

That raises an interesting point we haven't talked about before. On the theory that pulling the pedals towards your leg adds power, wouldn't performing the technique incorrectly cause a power loss according to the same principle? The point is that even performing the technique poorly should result in different power readings, so it's not the case that the theory can only be proved or disproved by someone who has mastered the art of handlebar wagging.

Certainly. That's why I've asked. This is not unlike having a very noodly boom on a fixed-boom bent.

But you're talking about maxing out your power production, which for stronger riders would result in power spikes of over 1000 watts. It's hard enough to coordinate the pedal stroke with handlebar movements at much lower power outputs than that, so I couldn't possibly perform the sort of test you have in mind except on a stationary trainer.

Hmm. Let's put it this way:

A certainly anaerobic, as in NOT sustainable in the long run effort, but not merely a 'power spike' - like a minute long climb up a decently steep kicker, trying to do it as fast as possible 'or die trying' .
That's a rather realistic scenario - 'hill surfing' when trying to maximise average speed require such tactics - sprinting up the hills followed by recovery on downhill after cresting it.

 

[Osiris]

Certainly. That's why I've asked. This is not unlike having a very noodly boom on a fixed-boom bent.

Right, so we agree on that much.

Hmm. Let's put it this way:

A certainly anaerobic, as in NOT sustainable in the long run effort, but not merely a 'power spike' - like a minute long climb up a decently steep kicker, trying to do it as fast as possible 'or die trying' .
That's a rather realistic scenario - 'hill surfing' when trying to maximise average speed require such tactics - sprinting up the hills followed by recovery on downhill after cresting it.

When you eventually get a power meter, you'll find that the amount of power needed to go as hard as you can for one minute is nowhere near your peak power. What this means is that the test subject would have to concentrate on limiting his power output when performing a 1 minute test, which could contaminate the results. That would not be the case if he performed max power tests on a trainer setup like trplay built. All he would have to do then is to record his peak power with and without wagging the handlebars and see if there's a significant difference.

 

[Balor]

When you eventually get a power meter, you'll find that the amount of power needed to go as hard as you can for one minute is nowhere near your peak power. What this means is that the test subject would have to concentrate on limiting his power output when performing a 1 minute test, which could contaminate the results. That would not be the case if he performed max power tests on a trainer setup like trplay built. All he would have to do then is to record his peak power with and without wagging the handlebars and see if there's a significant difference.

Well... yea, you are right I guess. Proving (or disproving) it conclusively is not easy! Of course principle is quite sound and definitely works on upright bikes, but whether it is worth extra frictional losses on Vendetta is yet an open question.

Anyway, I've been analysing my 'bike rocking' patterns once again and again I've noticed something interesting, it goes like this:

At the top of pedal stroke, you begin by swinging the bars into the pedal - that extends the distance but it does not matter, because there is no useful lever at the crank anyway.
When your pedal somewhere around 90 deg (maximum lever) you swing the bike to the opposite side by pulling hard on the bar end on the same side as pedal. I should note that when done right - this is HARD indeed, and feels like you are pulling up half your own weight... well, that's exactly what you are doing, actually! It should be even harder on Vendetta, hence if you don't have enough upper body strength - you may fail to get any benefit. The harder and faster you swing the bike (or boom in case of Vendetta) - the more upper body contribution you gain, and by starting with bike already 'preleaned' you are getting double the displacement for a given maximum lean angle exactly when you benefit most - at the point of maximum crank lever!

 

[trplay]

All he would have to do then is to record his peak power with and without wagging the handlebars and see if there's a significant difference.

And why wouldn't comparing the cadence measurement of both techniques when they are at exact wattages (100 watts) tell you anything?

 

[Balor]

And why wouldn't comparing the cadence measurement of both techniques when they are at exact wattages (100 watts) tell you anything?

Because you can simply push the pedals harder without any upper body contribution?

 

[trplay]

Because you can simply push the pedals harder without any upper body contribution?

?

 

[trplay]

Good luck with your quandary. Come Zwift with me if you ever get the time.

 

[RojoRacing]

Well, that's what I've been talking basically for years - 'bracing, bracing, bracing'! It is VERY hard to properly brace yourself without bar-pulling on a bent with controls that are fine-tuned for aero. It does not directly contribute to leg power all, but it can make your leg power delivery much more efficient... again, that's my theory.

It's like weight lifting free weights vs on a machine which locks you in to a single movement path. Anyone who has even bench-pressed at the gym will tell you they can lift 10% or more on the machine vs free weighting it. Now on the other hand they also claim free weights build a stronger body because they require more of the body to be involved. So are we looking for higher results with the rigid machine setup or a stronger overall body with the free weights?

With this scenario applied to a less moving parts on a bike requiring extra control muscles to be needed for stability the better for pure speed but it builds an overall weaker rider.

 

[RojoRacing]

Because you can simply push the pedals harder without any upper body contribution?

you can to a certain point until eventual you put enough power out that it starts shifting you around in the seat which is sapping your efficiency. I did a lot of this exact thing when zwifting with my broken wrist because I rode around most the time never holding the bars at all.

 

[trplay]

well i'm sitting here on my trainer trying to change my wattage without changing cadence and not having any luck. Any tips from you guys?