A Little Recumbent Love Over on Global Cycling Network

[ed72]

It’s slso less about whether the idea presented is right or wrong because it’s not all black and white. If you say a bike climbs slower are we talking about how a 21 lb trek Domane climbs slower than a 15lb emonda? Or is more like how a 35lb trike climbs slower? Does the extent that said bike climbs slower mean you shouldn’t bother taking it anywhere near a climb?

True.

A trike is closer to 45 pounds.

An equivalently priced racing upright to a V20 is around 15 pounds or maybe 10 pounds less than a high performance bent in the real wor;d. It isn't too hard to get to 13 lbs on an upright. A V20 or M5 under 22-23 pounds isn't that common, is it? 10 pounds differential is my bench mark. 10 pounds a massive handicap in the hills.

I am jealous that you climb the same on both platforms.

I can say without equivocation that I have not worked as hard at anything in my life as getting good on a bent. I simply do not climb as well over 8%. I can do 10 mile TT in under 20 minutes and am usually in the top 20% on any Strava climb, which for a 60 year old is good. But, I am faster on an upright at 8%. How the lungs perfuse oxygen and how the legs perfuse in a more supine position has been studied but not extensively. This is what is going on subthreshold. Suprathreshold, it is biomechanics.

To be honest, I saw the GCN video as an open door.

A very wide one.

 

[3bs]

I love the intensity and the pride you guys bring. It why I like to read your posts and data and videos blah blah. Your time commitment is extraordinary. I’d say there are at least 20 peeps here and what another 50 on bentrider that have devoted thousands of hours to bents. Thank you.

The gcn stuff was nice, a test sample indeed. Conventional cycling must include those who cycle all types to hold number against a flood of other means and forms. These guys know it, and they know a little controversy is good for business. Look at the time we have spent on our forums, and the comments they have gotten. All good. Every bit. Let’s all use our means and talents to keep the missionary work happening.

My daughter (14) was over at her old babysitter’s house today. When I picked her up, the lady came out and said she wanted to come over and try a trike with her husband because my daughter was talking about how fun and easy they are.

Last week her and her friends were ripping around on them on our street. It’s not gcn, but it’s real.

 

[ed72]

I guess it's a matter of perception. The presenters' comments were a rehash of "things they'd heard" about recumbents, with no personal experience, and (to me) they seemed slightly puzzled as to why someone would want to ride a recumbent, given all those cons to offset the few pros. One of the guys did seem more receptive to trying 'bents than the other. I'd call it overall neutral rather than favorable.


As best I can tell, neither of the guys talking about recumbents (Ollie and Jon?) was the one who tried out recumbents (James) at the HPV event. Their expert was more than a bit...um, effusive...with the "smiling" thing.

It comes down to experimentalists and theorists. I am quite certain recumbent riders come down hard on those without sufficient practical experience, but those making the criticisms have very little real cycling experience themselves. To be blunt....most bent riders know jack.

The only absolutely incorrect statements in the video pertained to balance and center of gravity. All others can be defended.

If Cruz wants to end bike isms, GCN has extended an olive branch as far as I can ascertain.

 

[bladderhead]

It is not just the outliers and racers and Jasons they need to talk to. Maybe I should get a gopro and film myself riding around Ilford, in the traffic, in the park, in the underpass. Going to work, going to get beer, going to drink beer. On my tatty, lived-in looking Silvio complete with fencewire. With a bag hung on the bars. I do not stick it on the back of a car and drive to the track. I do not say "It is for the race at the weekend and not for ordinary riding". Workhorse, packhorse, racehorse.

Racehorse? With me on it? What are you smoking?

 

[Osiris]

I can say without equivocation that I have not worked as hard at anything in my life as getting good on a bent. I simply do not climb as well over 8%. I can do 10 mile TT in under 20 minutes and am usually in the top 20% on any Strava climb, which for a 60 year old is good. But, I am faster on an upright at 8%. How the lungs perfuse oxygen and how the legs perfuse in a more supine position has been studied but not extensively. This is what is going on subthreshold. Suprathreshold, it is biomechanics.

One thing people always mention to me is that with a recumbent, you can't get up on the pedals to assist in steep climbs. This is understandably seen as a serious disadvantage. But I've tried climbing off the saddle on my uprights, and I can't manage it for more than ~50 yards before I'm exhausted and have to sit down. Does this suggest that there's something wrong with my technique, or do many riders have the same experience?

FWIW, I rode a 10 speed in upstate NY for many years. Nothing but steep hills in that part of the country. Never once did I stand on the pedals when climbing; I'd just put it in low gear and winch myself to the top.

 

[ed72]

One thing people always mention to me is that with a recumbent, you can't get up on the pedals to assist in steep climbs. This is understandably seen as a serious disadvantage. But I've tried climbing off the saddle on my uprights, and I can't manage it for more than ~50 yards before I'm exhausted and have to sit down. Does this suggest that there's something wrong with my technique, or do many riders have the same experience?

FWIW, I rode a 10 speed in upstate NY for many years. Nothing but steep hills in that part of the country. Never once did I stand on the pedals when climbing; I'd just put it in low gear and winch myself to the top.

Getting out of the saddle on an upright is to relieve muscles and to create short bursts of power. Long climbs are generally in the saddle with the back vertical to facilitate respiration and perfusion in the lungs and to better engage the largest muscles. Upright riders usually alternate standing and sitting.

A different, real world example might help understand the advantage of getting out of the saddle.

I ride brevets (randonneuringm, 300k, 400k, 600k, or 1200km distances) with a group of riders on uprights. Leaving a stop sign or light, they put 200-300 feet on me as they sprint away. Why? How? Because out of the saddle power is higher and easier to generate on an upright than peak on a bent. To catch those riders? They would reach speed more quickly and ride at 21 mph and for me going along at 23-24 mph to catch them, it takes me up to 2 minutes to regain contact. In urban areas, it is a royal PITA or an interval session depending upon perspective. Personally, I find it virtually impossible to ride with upright riders.

On rolling terrain with short steep finishes to the hill, upright riders get out of the saddle to power over the top and maintain momentum. To some extent this is possible on a bent although a better strategy is often to build momentum before the hill in some cases. Nonetheless. Unless a rider has a power meter on both an upright and recumbent and has the power duration curve at both, they can't claim there is no difference. I have a short strava segment near me that is 12-14% steep. I had the KoM on my upright. There is another one where I was 5th on my upright. I can't even crack the top 20% on a bent. Peak power is less and overall kilo joules of energy above threshold is lower. Most recumbent riders justifiably wouldn't care and very few would have real data. I do.

There is a huge problem making general statements because recumbent cycles vary enormously in design. But one shared limitation is the inability to get out of the saddle and it isn't just about being able to jam hard, it helps tremendously to lower the jolt of a pothole or to bunny hop a tree limb in the road.

I can speak for myself. My cycling times on flat 200k and 300k brevets are about the same as on an upright. Not much of a difference....no more than 5-10 minutes total.

 

[bladderhead]

These stander-uppers do not understand mechanics. When you stand up your body makes the same shape as the body of a person on a recumbent. Being folded up with your knees in your chest is a weak position.

Anyway, I never used to stand up. As Osiris said, less gear inches.

 

[trplay]

Personally, I find it virtually impossible to ride with upright riders.

Perhaps but it's not impossible for upright riders to virtually ride with you. Why wouldn't a platform like Zwift be perfect to compare the recumbent power position to the DF power standing power via the hill climbs. Seems it levels all the variables except power from legs and power train.

 

[DavidJL]

All cyclists need to unite. We have nothing to lose but our chains... Getting out of the saddle on upright hill climbs is great for changing muscles, but I have never found it to be as efficient as seated climbing.

 

[ed72]

Perhaps but it's not impossible for upright riders to virtually ride with you. Why wouldn't a platform like Zwift be perfect to compare the recumbent power position to the DF power standing power via the hill climbs. Seems it levels all the variables except power from legs and power train.

I don't know much about trainers or Zwift. I doubt I ever will.

Since we are both randonneurs, you may appreciate a perspective that I wouldn't normally note. When I was custom building a randonneuring upright, one of the key factors was control or minimization of vibration because it is my belief (supported by a few studies) that vibration to the human tissue isn't merely an efficiency matter (as Balor has explained many times) but also a significant source of human fatigue. This is why I went with a magnesium frame, larger tires, a leather saddle, long wheelbase, lots of rake, latex tubes, and one of those fancy Specialized seatposts. That bike was flat out comfortable for very long distances. When laying down on a recumbent seat and riding "normal" country roads around here, the level of vibration into the body is much higher. So, how does this relate to power output? If we compare the performance of an upright to a recumbent, it really is not so simple as a point estimate or a single short test loop. Horses for courses. Actual comparisons via controlled studies have been done looking at power levels, I think I have read all the relevant literature; I have done my own comparisons; and, there really isn't any need for me to see any new data. If I were to link the studies and if anyone cared, they would find some reason to not accept the results. I should note that I never seen a study showing MORE power in a supine/recumbent position versus upright whether submaximal or maximal power. Besides, people believe what they want to believe. I think Psychs call it confirmation bias. I know I gave it a full 2 years of my life, so, mine are now set. For my first 6 months on a bent, my FTP about a measily 150 and peak power was 550 watts. I eventually got the FTP back to my upright personal best of 286 watts but my peak is over 300 watts below that of the upright. I took my upright out the other day for tests on a hill that I use for intervals, my first upright ride in 2 years. I blew away all my power levels from past upright days and well ahead of my recumbent power levels. If I had not done that one ride, I would have falsely concluded that after two years, my recumbent performance matches my upright performance.

If recumbents have so many advantages over uprights and few disadvantages, why are there so few of us? I could probably list 20 reasons very quickly. I'd guess 3% of riders at PBP were on a 2 wheeled recumbent bike. I rarely see one on roads that I ride or I should say I never ever see one in the hills, once in awhile on the flat river road. I ride on very popular roads and usually see more than a hundred uprights during weekend rides. There is a very large recumbent bike store only 15 miles away. Access isn't the issue. What is it?

 

[DavidCH]

"people are like sheep" ... they dont want to be different even though there is compelling evidence to suggest otherwise

 

[trplay]

I don't know much about trainers or Zwift. I doubt I ever will.

Ah, Ed. The truth will set you free. If I could only lure you over to the Zwift Draft House. I think you, among all of our tribe, would cherish the magic of Zwift more than most. Based on your gazillion posts containing numbers and stats I can with love and respect consider you a numbers nut. If you ever enter the Zwift playground of numbers you will never leave.

 

[jond]

Yes the first gcn recumbent show was a door opening.

The second with the tech show was embarrassing for gcn presenters Ollie and Jon as they listed the disadvantages without any research or actual experience. And that cannot be defended nor justified. It was stupid.

Sadly this weeks tech show was a no show to the overwhelming commentary of presenter ignorance. Perhaps Ollie and Jon will address the matter once they are back in England.

I look forward to their equanimity surely forthcoming.

Plus to see Ollie on a bent would be special. Watch this space.

Bikes don’t you just love them all.

 

[jond]

I don't know much about trainers or Zwift. I doubt I ever will.

Since we are both randonneurs, you may appreciate a perspective that I wouldn't normally note. When I was custom building a randonneuring upright, one of the key factors was control or minimization of vibration because it is my belief (supported by a few studies) that vibration to the human tissue isn't merely an efficiency matter (as Balor has explained many times) but also a significant source of human fatigue. This is why I went with a magnesium frame, larger tires, a leather saddle, long wheelbase, lots of rake, latex tubes, and one of those fancy Specialized seatposts. That bike was flat out comfortable for very long distances. When laying down on a recumbent seat and riding "normal" country roads around here, the level of vibration into the body is much higher. So, how does this relate to power output? If we compare the performance of an upright to a recumbent, it really is not so simple as a point estimate or a single short test loop. Horses for courses. Actual comparisons via controlled studies have been done looking at power levels, I think I have read all the relevant literature; I have done my own comparisons; and, there really isn't any need for me to see any new data. If I were to link the studies and if anyone cared, they would find some reason to not accept the results. I should note that I never seen a study showing MORE power in a supine/recumbent position versus upright whether submaximal or maximal power. Besides, people believe what they want to believe. I think Psychs call it confirmation bias. I know I gave it a full 2 years of my life, so, mine are now set. For my first 6 months on a bent, my FTP about a measily 150 and peak power was 550 watts. I eventually got the FTP back to my upright personal best of 286 watts but my peak is over 300 watts below that of the upright. I took my upright out the other day for tests on a hill that I use for intervals, my first upright ride in 2 years. I blew away all my power levels from past upright days and well ahead of my recumbent power levels. If I had not done that one ride, I would have falsely concluded that after two years, my recumbent performance matches my upright performance.

If recumbents have so many advantages over uprights and few disadvantages, why are there so few of us? I could probably list 20 reasons very quickly. I'd guess 3% of riders at PBP were on a 2 wheeled recumbent bike. I rarely see one on roads that I ride or I should say I never ever see one in the hills, once in awhile on the flat river road. I ride on very popular roads and usually see more than a hundred uprights during weekend rides. There is a very large recumbent bike store only 15 miles away. Access isn't the issue. What is it?

Access isn’t the issue . What is it?

Perception marketing ambivalence vested interests critical mass IMHO the usual suspects. Won’t be the last time demonstrably superior product goes the way of vested senseless discrimination.

Horses for courses like you say. 7 kg v 11 kg. No contest for me in the mountains. The df wins but on all other criteria the recumbent bike wins. Easily. IMHO

Recumbents deserve their place on a level playing field Of bikes

Like Larry’s field of bikes

 

[ed72]

What is really stupid?

No refutation of their points.

Only an ad hominem attack on GCN because they lack bent experience as if that alone is so special or that the attributes of a bent can't be understood by inspection alone.

Really pathetic.

 

[Osiris]

Access isn’t the issue . What is it?

Well, access may in fact be the issue in many places. I live near a major city where cycling is very popular, and you can seemingly find a bicycle dealership on every block. There's not a single recumbent dealer in central Florida though; the last one closed it's doors two years ago. Thinking back on it, I never so much as saw a recumbent before 2011. I didn't know such things existed until I spotted a Bacchetta CA2 leaning against a tree at a major cycling event. I tend to stay mostly on paved bycycle trails on weekends, and even there I constantly run into people who have no idea what a recumbent is. Occasionally I'm even asked me whether I'd made it myself!

 

[Opik]

Well, access may in fact be the issue in many places. I live near a major city where cycling is very popular, and you can seemingly find a bicycle dealership on every block. There's not a single recumbent dealer in central Florida though; the last one closed it's doors two years ago. Thinking back on it, I never so much as saw a recumbent before 2011. I didn't know such things existed until I spotted a Bacchetta CA2 leaning against a tree at a major cycling event. I tend to stay mostly on paved bycycle trails on weekends, and even there I constantly run into people who have no idea what a recumbent is. Occasionally I'm even asked me whether I'd made it myself!

I think I get the bolded part very often.

GCN starts the aero Eurobike with the Alpha7 velomobile. it doesn't get much more aero then that. Disappointed they didn't talk much more about velomobiles

 

[jond]

What is really stupid?

No refutation of their points.

Only an ad hominem attack on GCN because they lack bent experience as if that alone is so special or that the attributes of a bent can't be understood by inspection alone.

Really pathetic.

“Really pathetic “ huh That’s really unfriendly ed.

Well done mate. I proffered an opinion based on experience. Lots of experience.

IMHO means in my humble opinion.

I found gcn tech show list of faults on a recumbent to be lacking some credibility. As did the majority of commentary. Which is unfortunate given their qualification and standing. I figure I’m not alone in this opinion of their critique.

No possible way can the attributes be understood by inspection alone of any bent ever ed.

You are wrong because riding a bicycle is also subjective to the individual.

Not just a scientific evaluation of the physical conditions of machine and man.

No bent experience means no bent experience as the presenter John and Ollie confirmed such before their hyperbolic attempt at discrimination and low brow humour.

Cycling is more than the sum of its parts always was always will be.

Further all Cycling should always be inclusive of all .

“Ad hominem attack on gcn. Refute their points” . No it was not and why when I’m in church ed.

“What is really stupid” publicly abusing your station by proffering negative stereotypical opinion with admitted nil experience of that product line.

Oh and empathic disagreement with your good self .

 

[jond]

Well, access may in fact be the issue in many places. I live near a major city where cycling is very popular, and you can seemingly find a bicycle dealership on every block. There's not a single recumbent dealer in central Florida though; the last one closed it's doors two years ago. Thinking back on it, I never so much as saw a recumbent before 2011. I didn't know such things existed until I spotted a Bacchetta CA2 leaning against a tree at a major cycling event. I tend to stay mostly on paved bycycle trails on weekends, and even there I constantly run into people who have no idea what a recumbent is. Occasionally I'm even asked me whether I'd made it myself!

“Access isn’t the issue then what is “;was a question from ed. Not me. I agree with you Osiris.I Should have paraphrased.

 

[bladderhead]

Access would help. There are hardly any bike shops around here, let alone 'bent shops. When is the Ilford branch of Rose City opening up?

I thought the first GCN video when he rode the bikes and smiled a lot was good. The second one was daft. They are seriously informative about stuff like Ti, but not 'bents. Why did they bother at all? Take the mick out of the weird crusty blokes who drink beer with bits in it.