marshall2389
Guru
Have any Vendetta owners tried deep section wheels on their V? Maybe a Zipp 808 front and disc rear? The V is already very aerodynamic, these wheels would only make it faster on the flats and downhills.
Aero wheels
- Thread starter marshall2389
- Start date
You betcha
The VN loves aero wheels. Finding true non-drive disc wheels is tough. We had one made by Renn and it works well if it's not too windy.
Deep rim wheels make a good compromise. If you are climbing a lot, the added weight may not be worth it. We will be bringing a selection of wheels for Maria to use on RAAM.
Jim
The VN loves aero wheels. Finding true non-drive disc wheels is tough. We had one made by Renn and it works well if it's not too windy.
Deep rim wheels make a good compromise. If you are climbing a lot, the added weight may not be worth it. We will be bringing a selection of wheels for Maria to use on RAAM.
Jim
marshall2389
Guru
the total weight for a Zipp
the total weight for a Zipp 808 set is 1730g, which is only, say, 300 grams heavier than a light weight road set. That's two thirds of a pound; not a whole lot to carry up the hills but potentially valuable on the descents and flats. I hope someone has tried them to report on their performance. Of course, overall weight isn't the only important factor for climbing. Stiffness is also important. Wheel manufacturers don't give all the pertinent parameters to compare wheelsets, though.
the total weight for a Zipp 808 set is 1730g, which is only, say, 300 grams heavier than a light weight road set. That's two thirds of a pound; not a whole lot to carry up the hills but potentially valuable on the descents and flats. I hope someone has tried them to report on their performance. Of course, overall weight isn't the only important factor for climbing. Stiffness is also important. Wheel manufacturers don't give all the pertinent parameters to compare wheelsets, though.
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
The importance of weight is
The importance of weight is easier to appreciate than the importance of aero, and some guys claim aero trumps a small weight penalty even on hills. I guess it depends on the mix of ups, downs and flats.
The importance of weight is easier to appreciate than the importance of aero, and some guys claim aero trumps a small weight penalty even on hills. I guess it depends on the mix of ups, downs and flats.
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
The importance of weight is
And the weight and average speed of the rider.
Throwing an extra two pounds doesn't bother me much, but Maria might notice it. And somebody who has an average speed of 20 mph will benefit more from the aero effects than, say, me.
For RAAM, it makes a lot of sense to have different wheels for different parts of the country. It might be only slightly crazy to re-evalute which wheels are on Maria's bike every time she gets off for a break.
And the weight and average speed of the rider.
Throwing an extra two pounds doesn't bother me much, but Maria might notice it. And somebody who has an average speed of 20 mph will benefit more from the aero effects than, say, me.
For RAAM, it makes a lot of sense to have different wheels for different parts of the country. It might be only slightly crazy to re-evalute which wheels are on Maria's bike every time she gets off for a break.
MrSteve
Zen MBB Master
Aero Wheels?
I vote, -YES-.
Here's my experience:
When I lived in the rolling hills of Tennessee... oh, wait, I'm still riding in 'em.
Four years ago or so, I invested half an afternoon of my free/riding time and
fabricated a set of cardboard rear wheel covers.
Roll-testing my bike down the hill that started at the end of the driveway
-the hill I rode twice-daily for years-
showed my bike computer about 8 miles per hour more speed at the bottom of the hill
and quicker accelleration than it ever did when it was stock.
Now, my bike is an original Sofrider V1, so it's heavier, shorter wheelbase, taller and aerodynamically
'dirtier' than any Vendetta ever made, so, keep that in mind!
Ride-testing the faired rear wheel on the open roads was a screaming success:
side-winds did shove the bike around, but the centre of pressure
-think sailboat-
moved rearward with the addition of the faired rear wheel.
That made the bike self-correcting.
The added stability alone was worth it, worth it and worth it.
The added weight was, well, added... but I never noticed the difference;
neither did my bike computer.
My average speed improved; downhill and flat speed improved a lot.
I've gone through two sets of home made rear wheel fairings and have
put a lot of miles on my present set.
The cardboard prototypes shredded one day, in their first and only week in existence,
on a long and gusty sretch of downhill road.
My first 'permanent' wheel covers lasted a few months;
the door I'd made to fair access to the valvestem blew open & shredded the rest of the
cover.
My current wheel covers are pretty old now... I've repainted them once, so far... so good.
Aero wheels... are they worth it?
Yes.
That's my opinion.
I vote, -YES-.
Here's my experience:
When I lived in the rolling hills of Tennessee... oh, wait, I'm still riding in 'em.
Four years ago or so, I invested half an afternoon of my free/riding time and
fabricated a set of cardboard rear wheel covers.
Roll-testing my bike down the hill that started at the end of the driveway
-the hill I rode twice-daily for years-
showed my bike computer about 8 miles per hour more speed at the bottom of the hill
and quicker accelleration than it ever did when it was stock.
Now, my bike is an original Sofrider V1, so it's heavier, shorter wheelbase, taller and aerodynamically
'dirtier' than any Vendetta ever made, so, keep that in mind!
Ride-testing the faired rear wheel on the open roads was a screaming success:
side-winds did shove the bike around, but the centre of pressure
-think sailboat-
moved rearward with the addition of the faired rear wheel.
That made the bike self-correcting.
The added stability alone was worth it, worth it and worth it.
The added weight was, well, added... but I never noticed the difference;
neither did my bike computer.
My average speed improved; downhill and flat speed improved a lot.
I've gone through two sets of home made rear wheel fairings and have
put a lot of miles on my present set.
The cardboard prototypes shredded one day, in their first and only week in existence,
on a long and gusty sretch of downhill road.
My first 'permanent' wheel covers lasted a few months;
the door I'd made to fair access to the valvestem blew open & shredded the rest of the
cover.
My current wheel covers are pretty old now... I've repainted them once, so far... so good.
Aero wheels... are they worth it?
Yes.
That's my opinion.
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/a
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aero-disc-covers.html
I've had them on and off. They are made for the rear wheel, where left and right sides have a different degree of cupping. For the front wheel, I think it was two left-for-rear that we used.
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/aero-disc-covers.html
I've had them on and off. They are made for the rear wheel, where left and right sides have a different degree of cupping. For the front wheel, I think it was two left-for-rear that we used.
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
Slowtwitch.com The ultimate
Slowtwitch.com The ultimate DIY disc wheel cover how-to looks interesting.
Recumbents.com How to Make Wheel Disks looks good too with more detail than the Slowtwitch post.
I think I'll try DIY. Now to find the time to do so - N24HC is only 16 days away...
-Eric
Slowtwitch.com The ultimate DIY disc wheel cover how-to looks interesting.
Recumbents.com How to Make Wheel Disks looks good too with more detail than the Slowtwitch post.
I think I'll try DIY. Now to find the time to do so - N24HC is only 16 days away...
-Eric
marshall2389
Guru
I look forward to your DIY
I look forward to your DIY report!
I look forward to your DIY report!
Pros and cons of aero disc covers
Hi John
You mentioned that you've had the Wheelbuilder aero covers on and off.
From your experience, what are the pros and cons of them?
I've been thinking of putting them on over the daylight saving months when most of the events I ride occur, then taking them off for the rest of the year. I'm not sure that they can stand that amount of use though, as Wheelbuilder recommend removing them between races.
Blair
Hi John
You mentioned that you've had the Wheelbuilder aero covers on and off.
From your experience, what are the pros and cons of them?
I've been thinking of putting them on over the daylight saving months when most of the events I ride occur, then taking them off for the rest of the year. I'm not sure that they can stand that amount of use though, as Wheelbuilder recommend removing them between races.
Blair
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
Blair,
My bikes are in flux,
Blair,
My bikes are in flux, I try this, I try that. I found the covers were faster. I forget why I took them off, I probably sold the wheels they were on. I havn't put them back on as I'm trying to find out what makes a fast bike, I don't need to actually have the fastest configuration to do this. They are perhaps a little fiddly to put on an off, the larger cupped disks paired on the 100mm hub wheel left a little gap to the hub and they seemed to move around therefore. I think I put some foam in there to help them sit firm.
They catch the side winds more, so you have to be aware of that. The push your wide on the downwind side, which sets up your lean-in. That is, a left side gust pushes you wheels to the right, allowing the bike to lean against the left. It is possible that on higher centre of gravity bikes this feels more controllable.
My bikes are in flux,
Blair,
My bikes are in flux, I try this, I try that. I found the covers were faster. I forget why I took them off, I probably sold the wheels they were on. I havn't put them back on as I'm trying to find out what makes a fast bike, I don't need to actually have the fastest configuration to do this. They are perhaps a little fiddly to put on an off, the larger cupped disks paired on the 100mm hub wheel left a little gap to the hub and they seemed to move around therefore. I think I put some foam in there to help them sit firm.
They catch the side winds more, so you have to be aware of that. The push your wide on the downwind side, which sets up your lean-in. That is, a left side gust pushes you wheels to the right, allowing the bike to lean against the left. It is possible that on higher centre of gravity bikes this feels more controllable.
Doug Burton
Zen MBB Master
you pay for wheel weight twice...
A heavier wheel figures into the equation twice. First, there's the actual weight addition, just like adding water bottles or anything else.
Then there's the rotating intertia. Wheels have to be accelerated, and adding weight to the wheels adds rotating intertia, increasing the energy required to accelerate the wheels, and thus the bike. Think of adding weight to a flywheel.
That's why you don't see deep rim wheels on climbing bikes in UCI races.
Jim has done some one-on-one testing of the Matrix 5-spoke carbon tubular wheels we've used on the Vendetta agains our A67 wheels, and found when all these effects are taken into account, the A67 is superior.
Remember, the bike and the rider are a system; optimizing one part at the expense of the whole will make you slower.
A heavier wheel figures into the equation twice. First, there's the actual weight addition, just like adding water bottles or anything else.
Then there's the rotating intertia. Wheels have to be accelerated, and adding weight to the wheels adds rotating intertia, increasing the energy required to accelerate the wheels, and thus the bike. Think of adding weight to a flywheel.
That's why you don't see deep rim wheels on climbing bikes in UCI races.
Jim has done some one-on-one testing of the Matrix 5-spoke carbon tubular wheels we've used on the Vendetta agains our A67 wheels, and found when all these effects are taken into account, the A67 is superior.
Remember, the bike and the rider are a system; optimizing one part at the expense of the whole will make you slower.
Eric Winn
Zen MBB Master
Coincidentally Doug, I had
Coincidentally Doug, I had just been reading through the post, Cheap wheel discs, over on recumbents.com where they are discussing this issue with the OP talking about using heat shrink "storm window" plastic for very light but apparently surprisingly durable wheel covers.
25hz (seems like he doesn't like Cruzbikes from some threads on BROL) talks about his thoughts on "rotating mass".
Interesting stuff. So how about clear heat shrink plastic on my A67s?
-Eric
Coincidentally Doug, I had just been reading through the post, Cheap wheel discs, over on recumbents.com where they are discussing this issue with the OP talking about using heat shrink "storm window" plastic for very light but apparently surprisingly durable wheel covers.
25hz (seems like he doesn't like Cruzbikes from some threads on BROL) talks about his thoughts on "rotating mass".
Interesting stuff. So how about clear heat shrink plastic on my A67s?
-Eric
Alan Dolbeer
New Member
marshall2389
Guru
thanks for the input
thanks for the input everyone. I am surprised there isn't more positive reviews of aero wheelsets. I thought that the reduced drag might feel really good while flying on the flats and low grades. It is a compromise, though. Light road sets give you the reduced wieght and lower inertia for better stop-and-go performance and climbing. Aero wheels reduce drag for higher downhill and low-grade cruising speeds.
thanks for the input everyone. I am surprised there isn't more positive reviews of aero wheelsets. I thought that the reduced drag might feel really good while flying on the flats and low grades. It is a compromise, though. Light road sets give you the reduced wieght and lower inertia for better stop-and-go performance and climbing. Aero wheels reduce drag for higher downhill and low-grade cruising speeds.
John Tolhurst
Zen MBB Master
People don't like the
People don't like the sluggish speed up feel of heavier rotating mass, but the never complain about the fact they are equally hard to slow down. Funny eh? So on a hilly course, rotating mass doesn't matter. Others say different, but this is what I understand. The only time it matter is if you are consistently not getting back that rotating energy, such as having to brake very frequently, like going across town, stopping frequently.
There was a detailed study I found of a hill climb time trial, and the research concluded that as long as conditions allow it, use the most aero wheels you can. Watts saved on aero easily compensates watts needed to lift added weight. There is a tipping point where the climb is so slow that aero savings are not present. It needs calculating.
So in summary, we know disk wheels are faster in most circumstancees and I pose that they are often unfairly blamed for hills being hard to climb.
People don't like the sluggish speed up feel of heavier rotating mass, but the never complain about the fact they are equally hard to slow down. Funny eh? So on a hilly course, rotating mass doesn't matter. Others say different, but this is what I understand. The only time it matter is if you are consistently not getting back that rotating energy, such as having to brake very frequently, like going across town, stopping frequently.
There was a detailed study I found of a hill climb time trial, and the research concluded that as long as conditions allow it, use the most aero wheels you can. Watts saved on aero easily compensates watts needed to lift added weight. There is a tipping point where the climb is so slow that aero savings are not present. It needs calculating.
So in summary, we know disk wheels are faster in most circumstancees and I pose that they are often unfairly blamed for hills being hard to climb.
Alan Dolbeer
New Member
Pic of the Silvio with the Boyd Aero wheels. Probably on the bike to stay but I still have the lighter ROL Race SL wheelset on my DF bike which could be switched if desired for a ride with major hills where they may be faster up long, steep climbs but will surely stop more quickly on the high speed descents.
Andrew 1973
Zen MBB Master
^ That is a gorgeous Silvio
I love the deep carbon Boyds on your Silvio; they make a fast bike look even more agressive.
I love the deep carbon Boyds on your Silvio; they make a fast bike look even more agressive.
