An S40 update 350 miles in

[Greg S]

I thought I'd follow up on my first post here which I made right after buying my S40. I want to again express my appreciation for the responses I got to the questions I posted at the time, they were very helpful in getting me started.

As I write this I've got about 350 miles on the bike with my longest ride being just under 40 miles. People here seem to object to the term "bent legs" that I use to describe the physiological adaptation to riding a recumbent and a few don't even feel it exists.

Well, it does in my case. I rode over 13K miles in 2019 with several 1200K brevets on a DF and thus far 40 miles with 3K feet of climbing is about all I want to do on the S40. I'm not saying I can't go further but I'm significantly more tired/sore for a given distance on the S40 than I would be on the DF. In gradually increasing my mileage I've found that I hit a limit where muscles in my legs begin to tire/cramp and trust me that this never happens on a DF. I'm using my leg muscles in a different way and/or using different muscle groups on the S40 than I do on the DF. I'm very well adapted to the DF, significantly less so to the S40 but it's coming along.

I'm well past the "startup" phase as far as handling the bike is concerned. I can get under way smoothly, make u-turns, take one hand off the bars (no handed is a bit of a stretch thus far). All of these things require a bit more focus than on the DF but I'm able to do them comfortably.

I've been tweaking the adjustment/fit and for the most part have it dialed in now. I changed the drivetrain from the stock 1X system to a 2x compact because I wanted more gearing at both ends of the spectrum. The 50x11 high gear and 34x42 low gear take me pretty much anywhere I want to go, the steepest hill I've climbed thus far is 12% and my top speed is a little over 40 MPH.

When I converted the drivetrain to 2x I retained the 165mm crank arm length (I had a set of Dura Ace cranks in that length on hand) but am going to change to 175mm as I feel I'm giving up too much leverage with the shorter cranks (my inseam is 36") and am spinning too much. I changed the handlebars from the stock bars to the Soma Gators and like the result.

Otherwise I've pretty much got the fit where I want it. I'll make the appropriate adjustments when I change the crank arm length but other than that I think I've got it dialed in.

I'm at our winter place in Central Texas and am riding roads that I've ridden for years on the DF. In comparing my times on various segments in Strava I'm significantly slower on the S40 than on the DF but I'm guessing that'll improve somewhat as I further adapt to riding the S40.

Most importantly, I'm enjoying riding the bike! The initial learning curve was pretty steep and it took a few sessions of parking lot riding before I felt like I could maneuver the bike safely but I'm now to the point where I can relax and enjoy the ride.

Thanks for reading!

 

[benphyr]

I thought I'd follow up on my first post here which I made right after buying my S40. I want to again express my appreciation for the responses I got to the questions I posted at the time, they were very helpful in getting me started.

Most importantly, I'm enjoying riding the bike! ... I'm now to the point where I can relax and enjoy the ride.

Glad to hear it. Well done.

 

[paco1961]

Glad to hear it’s going well. Wish My knees could handle a set of 175s but 155 is it.

 

[RojoRacing]

I hope you can continue to adapt to your S40 because you should be able to get to the point where you struggle to convince yourself to even ride your DF because the S40 is just so good, that's how it is for me on the V20.

I wouldn't consider 350 miles anywhere near adequate adaptation of the bike, at least in my case it took much longer than that in mileage but maybe we're similar in time because I rushed through my learning with lots of miles very quickly. If in another 350 miles you still struggle to make the gains you feel you should then I'd consider more drastic ergonomic changes like a full seat and or headrest replacement. It's one of those things you think you have dialed in pretty close until you try something totally new and realize you weren't even in the ballpark of what could be had. Riding a cruzbike should be like walking, so fluid and natural you don't even feel like you're riding, you're just moving along taking in the sights.

 

[billyk]

Of COURSE there's such a thing as "bent legs". I am reminded of that fact every time (not very often) I get on a DF and get equally tired and sore as you describe after a few 10s of miles. It's the quads; we use them more, especially uphill.

But I agree with @RojoRacing that 350 miles isn't enough to feel that you "own" this thing, especially if you weren't riding a recumbent before.

Have you lost the initial death grip on the bars? That'll tense up your whole upper body and make you tired in a hurry. When you get there it's a clue that this is becoming natural. It's one reason to learn no-hands.

 

[ak-tux]

Well, it does in my case. I rode over 13K miles in 2019 with several 1200K brevets on a DF and thus far 40 miles with 3K feet of climbing is about all I want to do on the S40. I'm not saying I can't go further but I'm significantly more tired/sore for a given distance on the S40 than I would be on the DF. In gradually increasing my mileage I've found that I hit a limit where muscles in my legs begin to tire/cramp and trust me that this never happens on a DF. I'm using my leg muscles in a different way and/or using different muscle groups on the S40 than I do on the DF. I'm very well adapted to the DF, significantly less so to the S40 but it's coming along.

I personally found that there is an optimium point at which the relationship between the seat position and the bottom bracket postion gives you the highest power output.

I don't have a formula yet, but I kept tweaking my bike until one day, it seems, something just clicked. Now the bike rides significantly faster than my DF ( apart from climbing above 2 or 3% becuase my DF is much lighter.)

The lowest point of the seat is just about 4 to 5 cm below the bottom bracket, while my seat has a slight upward curve at the lumbar area. It's a custom home built wooden seat and it is reclined at 37 to 40 degs. The seat shape slightly resembles the Thor Easy seat. My cranks are 170mm long becuase that was all I got. I have never tried shorter cranks. I'am 178cm tall.

The bigest drawback to my homemade recumbent is the weight. (It's more than 16.5Kgs). I sometimes wonder how much faster on gentle climbs it would be if it was 11Kgs or less. On rough tarmac ,sometimes I wish I had a slight rear suspension like that of the S30.

Hope this helps.

 

[3bs]

i am glad you like it. i think the more you ride the more you will like it.
i am also supportive of your drive train changes, particularly to accomodate the end ranges. there's plenty of gearing for the middle range.

as far as speed distance and acclimation, this is all over the place. for most people 350 miles on a mbbfwd is really nothing. i have several thousand miles on my v20 now, and i am still not 100%. but on my t 50 i have less than 1000 and i toss it around with impunity. my son, who doesn't ride bikes much at all, can jump on any of my bikes and just ride off like a pro.

i notice muscle and aerobic differences when i move between types, i go between a conventional bike to recumbent bike to recumbent trike and i have to adjust my system (muscles and lungs balance) every time.

but this is also true when i go between types and brands of bents, such as cruzbike, m5, morciglio

and this is also true when i go between models in a brands, such as v20 to t50.

and then i find that i am faster or prefer one over another for weather and terrain conditions.

and then of course sometimes i just like riding something different for no reason other than riding something different.

i am lucky to have more than one to ride.

 

[chicorider]

Good write up. It took me probably 2000 miles on the V20 before I felt like I had my bent legs, but once I got there, what was my 18-19mph all-day cruising speed on my DF bike became 23-24mph on the V. And because the V is sooo-oo much more comfortable, what used to be 30-miles-and-I'll-be-happy-to-be-off-of-this-saddle DF rides became 50-miles-and-I-could-keep-going-but-dang-it-I'm-running-out-of-time V20 rides.

Enjoy getting there.

 

[Greg S]

Thanks all for the replies. Given that even on a DF it takes me a few thousand miles to "become one" with the bike I'm not the slightest surprised that I'm not yet acclimated to the S40. As I said, I'm comfortable riding it (no "death grip" on the bars @billyk) but still have a long way to go to develop the same level of power & performance that I'm able to achieve on the DF.

And in truth it's not likely I'm going to get there this year. Nothing really to do with the bike. It's that I have a rather full calendar of rides scheduled that I'm planning to ride a DF on so I won't get the dedicated riding in on the S40 that I think I'd need to be able to do a longer ride. As I said in the initial thread I posted here, in an ideal world (at least my ideal world) I'd be able to choose the right tool for the job and there are several rides I'm planning on this year where the S40 would be close to ideal. The problem is there's either too little time before or too little time after those rides where I'll be doing another ride that's ideal for a DF so I won't get that extended acclimation that I think I need.

I suspect, or at least hope, that once I've got a few thousand miles in on the S40 that I'd be well enough acclimated to it that I could do "maintenance miles" on it and then do a longer ride with a few weeks of riding it exclusively beforehand. That'll be the big experiment this year.

One interesting related afterthought from today's ride.

The weather today had south winds to 30+ MPH. I've got a 52 mile route that I like to do with a strong south wind that I've done a bunch of times on a DF. It's got about 1800 feet of climbing but 1000 of it are in the first 17 miles which are also straight into the wind. What I generally do is get through the first 17 miles (which also go through town with a bunch of stop signs) with an 11-12 MPH moving average and then try to do the rest of the ride (which goes straight North) fast enough that my overall average speed is 18 MPH. The route from 17 to 52 miles is rolling with a section at about mile 30 that has some longer climbs but there's also a fair bit of downhill where I'm spun out.

Today's ride was interesting. The section from mile 17 on is pretty much right in the S40's wheelhouse and I hit it reasonably hard. Not "slobber on the top tube" hard but a 7/10 effort. The rolling sections are such that if you go at them hard you can keep your average speed above 18 MPH and I did that today and for the downhill sections spun out is spun out regardless of whether it's on a DF or a 'bent.

In the end, my overall moving average was 17 MPH exactly. I was a bit surprised by this as I thought I'd be closer to, or even faster than, my time on a DF.

Just shows I've got some work to do.

One final note that I've not mentioned in this thread. As I said elsewhere, I own another recumbent, a Bacchetta CA 2.0. I never really liked riding the Bacchetta a whole lot and rode it either because I was nursing an injury or out of a sense of obligation. That's a key difference with the S40 - I actually like riding it. This will keep me at it and it might well turn out that I'm all in on the 'bent at some point in the future. But I'm not there yet.

Thanks for reading and thanks once again for the comments.

 

[DocS]

Greg, you mentioned that you're in Central Texas? Where, in Central Texas?
I'm in the San Antonio area...

I have an Silvio 2.0 and was coming off a Bacchetta Corsa.
I've put a few thousand miles on it since getting it and sold the Bacchetta...
If you're in the area, I'd love to ride with another Cruzbike rider!!!

Blessings,
DocS

 

[Greg S]

Hi @DocS, I’m in the Fredericksburg area.

 

[xtalbike]

Greg-

I found your post very interesting because I also recently started out on an S40 and have had a pretty similar experience. I'm up to around 700 miles of Cruzbiking because I commute every day on the S40. Even before I put the studded tires on for the Boston area winter I was a bit disappointed in the average speeds I was getting for non commute weekend rides. I was a bit less gracious, though, and blamed the bike rather than myself . I did some rides with power measuring pedals and found that my average power was a bit lower than on the DF but not enough to account for the difference in speed. I decided that the S40 is a perfect commuter but isn't ever going to be my long distance road bike. When the price reduction on the V20 was announced I went to the LBS (that is actually a Cruzbike dealer Yay!) and tried the V. I bought it on the spot. Today (crazy warm in the Northeast) was the first time I rode it with some of my regular riding friends and it worked out fine. We weren't exactly riding in a paceline but between the uphills and downhills the difference in the speed profiles of DF vs V evened out pretty well and we stayed together nicely. I'm very happy that the V will allow me to keep riding with my friends despite neck problems that make long spells on the DF very uncomfortable. Bottom line is that the V is really a lot snappier uphill, downhill, and flat than the S40. It's surprising to me how much so but that's what I've experienced.

 

[paco1961]

Both of you should give yourselves some time. A few hundred miles is nothing on adjustment. Get in 3000 miles and then reassess. Took me 5-6 months to get to the point where my S40 performance equaled my DF. The nice thing is that the improvement didn’t stop there and it’s still improving. I know many out there look at the S as a touring bike but on a 50 mile race I’m 2mph faster than I ever was on a DF.

 

[bladderhead]

@Greg S so you got it to fit you after 350 miles? Astonishing. Took me at least 2000 miles and several handlebars. And brakes. And gears. Like ak-tux said, there is probably some tweak that would help, but it is hidden from you at this time. No quick easy route to becoming a shaman.

You will get faster eventually. Will your Cruzbike butterfly outperform your DF caterpillar? Maybe, but some say you need a Vendetta for that. If you are reading this you have now got a virus. The sort that gives you n+1 disease.

With the long cranks you are going against the trend on this forum.

Jason has trouble convincing himself to get on his DF. I have trouble convincing myself to ride my poor old Grasshopper with its oh-so-nice Rohloff and springs. Silvio is SICK!

 

[LarryOz]

I found your post very interesting because I also recently started out on an S40 and have had a pretty similar experience. I'm up to around 700 miles of Cruzbiking because I commute every day on the S40. Even before I put the studded tires on for the Boston area winter I was a bit disappointed in the average speeds I was getting for non commute weekend rides. I was a bit less gracious, though, and blamed the bike rather than myself . I did some rides with power measuring pedals and found that my average power was a bit lower than on the DF but not enough to account for the difference in speed. I decided that the S40 is a perfect commuter but isn't ever going to be my long distance road bike. When the price reduction on the V20 was announced I went to the LBS (that is actually a Cruzbike dealer Yay!) and tried the V. I bought it on the spot. Today (crazy warm in the Northeast) was the first time I rode it with some of my regular riding friends and it worked out fine. We weren't exactly riding in a paceline but between the uphills and downhills the difference in the speed profiles of DF vs V evened out pretty well and we stayed together nicely. I'm very happy that the V will allow me to keep riding with my friends despite neck problems that make long spells on the DF very uncomfortable. Bottom line is that the V is really a lot snappier uphill, downhill, and flat than the S40. It's surprising to me how much so but that's what I've experienced.

..
This is a great example of how much more aero the V20 is when compared to the S40. 20 degrees lower sear angle is "a lot!". If you really want to go fast you ride a V2o. If you want to sit up higher and be more social, then you ride an S40. (p.s. You can get an V2o and put a wedge in the seat for about the affect) - so if you are on the fence - go for the V20 - You can't turn an S40 into a V20!
..
Greg - thanks for the great write up - Welcome to the tribe. Your observations are great and will no doubt help others.

 

[Greg S]

Both of you should give yourselves some time. A few hundred miles is nothing on adjustment. Get in 3000 miles and then reassess. Took me 5-6 months to get to the point where my S40 performance equaled my DF. The nice thing is that the improvement didn’t stop there and it’s still improving. I know many out there look at the S as a touring bike but on a 50 mile race I’m 2mph faster than I ever was on a DF.

As I said:

Given that even on a DF it takes me a few thousand miles to "become one" with the bike I'm not the slightest surprised that I'm not yet acclimated to the S40. As I said, I'm comfortable riding it (no "death grip" on the bars @billyk) but still have a long way to go to develop the same level of power & performance that I'm able to achieve on the DF.

@bladderhead I'd say at this point that I'm 90% of the way there in terms of fit. I think there's likely a Thor seat and some tweaking with the headrest but the basic fit (crank length, bars, etc) are there I think. Of course I've changed everything but the paint ;-) I'm an inveterate tweaker so it's entirely within the realm of the possible there are more changes large and small to come,

As to the crank length, I've done two rides now with the longer cranks and am glad of the change. Subjectively I feel like I've got a bit more power and am not doing as much hamster like spinning in lower gears. The one thing I was a bit worried about with the longer cranks was whether or not I'd be able to pedal as smoothly on steep climbs. I set a new record (for me) today with a 14% climb into a 25 MPH headwind and although the engine (me) was about to blow a gasket I was able to make it up the climb without stopping with only a small amount of wheel slip.

@xtalbike Thank you so much for your post! Although I'm happy with the S40 thus far, I've been idly thinking whether I'd keep it and, if so, whether that would be in lieu of or in addition to something else, that "something else" being a V20. Based on your experience, I'd say there's most definitely a V20 in my future. Given my other plans for the year it'll likely wait until the end of the summer but it'll happen for sure. I really appreciate your insight as an S40 & V20 owner, thanks for sharing it.

 

[3bs]

v20 with a wedge. zoom zoom

 

[skankingbiker]

That is a wicked paint scheme

 

[3bs]

@skankingbiker
Thanks. I do art on the side. Sometimes they can be entertaining. In the late 80's I painted a flame job on my 928. You can imagine how the American Porsche faithful reacted... I was almost excluded from an event. Then I reminded the leadership that Porsche race cars had been famously painted in fun liveries, such as the pig. Some years later club racers started doing more fun paint work and my work was forgotten.v

I think CB's deserve more paint schemes. I am tryingto get the time to do an airbrush fade job on my t 50.

Feel free to send me your frameset. I will be happy to make it unique.

 

[benphyr]

Hypothetically if Someone were to get this Silveta
https://forum.cruzbike.com/threads/silveta-for-sale-1900-ca.13205/ What could you do with it to make it unified and awesome?