Assault on the Carolinas Ride: No recumbents allowed?

[RojoRacing]

Because his event specially by name excluded recumbents or bikes with only two spokes. I am likely the only one of two recumbent riders that he has seen riding a two spoke and on a bent. I was and still am disgusted with his exclusion. It is a fact and not correct for someone of his position to take such a stand. I usually by a time spot from him. I did not this year.



https://sloultra.si/rules0.html

Edit: never mind I see it now
I don’t see in the rules where it says no Recumbents, only the part that says standard road bike or TT bikes. Maybe I’m blind but can you direct me to where on the rules page it says that?

 

[velocio]

I don’t see in the rules where it says no Recumbents, only the part that says standard road bike or TT bikes. Maybe I’m blind but can you direct me to where on the rules page it says that?

From the AOTC webpage:

What type of bike should I ride? The AOTC is designed for road bikes—lightweight bikes with thin tires (> 100psi) and multiple gears built for speed and handling on paved roads. For safety of all riders and logistical considerations, please, no recumbent bikes, elliptical bikes, mountain bikes, unicycles, tri-bikes / aerobars, BMX/freestyle bikes, commuter bikes or motorized bikes. ​

Underlining in the quote above was on the webpage, not added by me. If I interpret the rules correctly, TT bikes are also not allowed. To me the request for "lightweight bikes with thin tires (> 100psi)" is the weirdest constraint of all. Of the 8 DF road bikes in my garage there isn't one that I pump the tires to 100+psi, not even the tandem. What possible "safety consideration" would mandate skinny, high pressure race rubber, barring bikes optimized for fast, long distance road riding with, say, Conti GP 5000's in 700x32 (which my main DF bike has, pumped to about 70 psi). They failed to specifically bar tandems (or triplets/quads!), so I guess those are deemed safe to mix it up with the skinny 100 psi road bikes?

This doesn't seem like a case of discriminating against recumbents, as much as a case of trying to eliminate any participants who don't fit a very narrow riding profile -- who likely look very, very much like the event organizers. It's their ride though, so they can do what they want. After reading through the event website I honestly have no desire to support this event by attending. There are plenty of rides to choose from with a more inclusive and friendly vibe.

Cheers,

-Jack

 

[RojoRacing]

From the AOTC webpage:

What type of bike should I ride? The AOTC is designed for road bikes—lightweight bikes with thin tires (> 100psi) and multiple gears built for speed and handling on paved roads. For safety of all riders and logistical considerations, please, no recumbent bikes, elliptical bikes, mountain bikes, unicycles, tri-bikes / aerobars, BMX/freestyle bikes, commuter bikes or motorized bikes. ​

Underlining in the quote above was on the webpage, not added by me. If I interpret the rules correctly, TT bikes are also not allowed. To me the request for "lightweight bikes with thin tires (> 100psi)" is the weirdest constraint of all. Of the 8 DF road bikes in my garage there isn't one that I pump the tires to 100+psi, not even the tandem. What possible "safety consideration" would mandate skinny, high pressure race rubber, barring bikes optimized for fast, long distance road riding with, say, Conti GP 5000's in 700x32 (which my main DF bike has, pumped to about 70 psi). They failed to specifically bar tandems (or triplets/quads!), so I guess those are deemed safe to mix it up with the skinny 100 psi road bikes?

This doesn't seem like a case of discriminating against recumbents, as much as a case of trying to eliminate any participants who don't fit a very narrow riding profile -- who likely look very, very much like the event organizers. It's their ride though, so they can do what they want. After reading through the event website I honestly have no desire to support this event by attending. There are plenty of rides to choose from with a more inclusive and friendly vibe.

Cheers,

-Jack

@ed72 mentioned Marko and his event(not the AOTC) with a quote from the rules but I can’t find the quoted text in the rules of the event Marko is apparently attached to. I’m trying to figure out if Marko’s event rules are a misunderstanding, oversight or prejudice.

 

[velocio]

@ed72 mentioned Marko and his event(not the AOTC) with a quote from the rules but I can’t find the quoted text in the rules of the event Marko is apparently attached to. I’m trying to figure out if Marko’s event rules are a misunderstanding, oversight or prejudice.

Got'cha ... I was duped into thinking we were discussing the Assault On The Carolinas ride by the misleading thread title "Assault on the Carolinas Ride: No recumbents allowed?"

Hopefully this "Marko" is welcoming to sub-100psi-tired velocipedes of any ilk.

-Jack

 

[RojoRacing]

Here's Marko's response to my inquiry. He may not be the only one in charge of writing these rules so I don't know how easy he can implement a change but I trust he will try, he's just as honest and generous a person as I am.

"Sorry about that Jason. Actually I was in the group writing the rules and I did not know we put that in. I will have this corrected when I return home. Thanks for pointing it out."

 

[super slim]

My response:

From: Ken Rudd
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2019 4:24 PM
To: 'Assault on the Carolinas' <assaultonthecarolinas@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Thank you for your interest.


AOTC-


I appreciate the response, and I certainly wholeheartedly support any possible safety efforts. However, I am unaware of any studies, statistics or data that indicate recumbents are any more dangerous that other road bikes.


However, I am aware that :

1. Recumbents are often ( but not exclusively ) ridden by more mature riders. These riders, with excess time, vocal online presence and disposable income, are ideal to add to your rider base and foolish to alienate;
2. Arbitrarily banning recumbents can create a strong appearance of a narrowminded and elitist outlook;
3. One of the leading recumbent manufacturers, Cruzbike, is headquartered in North Carolina;
4. While recumbents have a reputation of being slow, that is undeserved in many cases. I assure you, there are many fast recumbents and riders. Your objective and sensible requirement that riders can average at least 10 miles per hour for 6 1/2 hours over 65 miles of hilly terrain will weed out slower riders on recumbents and uprights alike. I wholly understand your SAG crews will have enough work hauling riders up Caesars Head, regardless of bike type;
5. Many other rides do very well welcoming a diverse rider base, including recumbents:
   1. Assault on Mt Mitchell ( click like for a first hand recumbent report)
   2. Bike MS: New Bern
   3. Raven Rock Ramble
   4. Firecracker Ride
   5. NCBC Fall Rally
   6. Festivelo
   7. Race Across America (RAAM)
   8. Devil Mountain Double Century (DMD)
   9. Mid-Atlantic 100 Mile Race

In summary, consider it a win-win to reconsider your recumbent ban, especially in time for 2020 ride.


-Ken Rudd

Very well written!

 

[RojoRacing]

My response:

From: Ken Rudd
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2019 4:24 PM
To: 'Assault on the Carolinas' <assaultonthecarolinas@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Thank you for your interest.


AOTC-


I appreciate the response, and I certainly wholeheartedly support any possible safety efforts. However, I am unaware of any studies, statistics or data that indicate recumbents are any more dangerous that other road bikes.


However, I am aware that :

1. Recumbents are often ( but not exclusively ) ridden by more mature riders. These riders, with excess time, vocal online presence and disposable income, are ideal to add to your rider base and foolish to alienate;
2. Arbitrarily banning recumbents can create a strong appearance of a narrowminded and elitist outlook;
3. One of the leading recumbent manufacturers, Cruzbike, is headquartered in North Carolina;
4. While recumbents have a reputation of being slow, that is undeserved in many cases. I assure you, there are many fast recumbents and riders. Your objective and sensible requirement that riders can average at least 10 miles per hour for 6 1/2 hours over 65 miles of hilly terrain will weed out slower riders on recumbents and uprights alike. I wholly understand your SAG crews will have enough work hauling riders up Caesars Head, regardless of bike type;
5. Many other rides do very well welcoming a diverse rider base, including recumbents:
   1. Assault on Mt Mitchell ( click like for a first hand recumbent report)
   2. Bike MS: New Bern
   3. Raven Rock Ramble
   4. Firecracker Ride
   5. NCBC Fall Rally
   6. Festivelo
   7. Race Across America (RAAM)
   8. Devil Mountain Double Century (DMD)
   9. Mid-Atlantic 100 Mile Race

In summary, consider it a win-win to reconsider your recumbent ban, especially in time for 2020 ride.


-Ken Rudd

Have you met Larry Oz and his attempts to ride everything with narrow bars? His crash record alone gives me pause when I roll up along any bents I come across in the wild

 

[ed72]

Here's Marko's response to my inquiry. He may not be the only one in charge of writing these rules so I don't know how easy he can implement a change but I trust he will try, he's just as honest and generous a person as I am.

"Sorry about that Jason. Actually I was in the group writing the rules and I did not know we put that in. I will have this corrected when I return home. Thanks for pointing it out."

That is good news. Maybe a committee was using his name but it is his event on paper and the results specifically designate Marko as the "Responsible Person" and what this really shows is a general bias against recumbents.

Why won't virtually any local time trials allow recumbent riders. It isn't a mass start and it is easy to have separate classes.

On another level are some sportifs and Fondue type rides like the Assault on Mitchell.

I will say that every single Cruz rider that I have seen has been respectful and represents recumbent riders well and ride in control. Maybe there is a longer history of bent riders causing crashes but very doubtful. So, maybe you guys and ladies are making a dent.

 

[bladderhead]

Long history of bent riders causing DF riders to not win.

 

[Bill Wightman]

They are blethering about safety? Again? Those who have gone over the handlebars are disqualified from talking about safety.

That is one aspect I just love. I have made many hard grip stops and that is all there is to it, no drama over the bars problems.

 

[velocio]

That is one aspect I just love. I have made many hard grip stops and that is all there is to it, no drama over the bars problems.

I'm 100% recumbent these days and I realize I'm posting to a recumbent forum, so want to fit in by adopting the local customs, but ... (as we used to say back in the early days of Usenet "donning my fire retard suit..." )

Has anyone here ever seen an upright rider who was JRA (Just Riding Along) on a DF "safety bicycle" (i.e. not a penny-farthing) spontaneously take flight over her handlebars when she applied the brakes on paved road? In 35 years of serious cycling it's never happened to me, except once offroad (actually, off trail as well) on a very steep, rugged downhill when I failed to use proper technique. In those 35 years I've seen innumerable riders perform hard stops, even panic stops, with not one taking flight OTB (Over The Bars). The only time I've seen a road rider "go flying over the handlebars" was when they hit an immovable object (T-bone a car, swerve to avoid something and hit concrete barrier, etc...). In those situations starting off lower to the ground might be helpful, but greater maneuverability and better visibility might also be helpful. In an emergency situation I'd much rather be on a DF, since both my DF's and recumbents can brake to the limits of adhesion of the tires, but with proper braking technique the DF's have nearly equal loading on both tires to minimize stopping distances and are more nimble and offer better visibility.

I'm loving my S40 and like the Bacchetta Giro that came before it, but not because they brake better or safer. As always, I'm happy to hear reasoned arguments as to why my position on this is freakin' nuts.

Be safe out there,

-Jack
Raleigh, NC

 

[Bill Wightman]

Has anyone here ever seen an upright rider who was JRA (Just Riding Along) on a DF "safety bicycle" (i.e. not a penny-farthing) spontaneously take flight over her handlebars when she applied the brakes on paved road?
...I remember distinctly hard feathering front brakes during two criterium crashes to prevent the over the bars problem. Both times I was running on the front wheel only and the rear was sliding all over the place and worthless. You often have to hit the brakes before you can shift your weight aft. Emergency/panic stops on the V20 are quick and effective, no high CG problems to consider. I've flown over the bars off-road on a DF but that was my fault for launching myself into a ditch first. Won't be taking a V20 off-road. In an emergency stop on a V20 no technique is needed, just a quick hard double brake squeeze. I would challenge any DF in a shortest stopping distance duel. For the same rider and brakes the low body CG will win every time.

 

[Mathew Fy]

In the short "Find Your Joy" Bob @ratz speaks of how a fork failure resulted in a neck fracture. I know of many injuries from hitting pot holes and trail bollards, enough to convince me of the risks associated with upright bikes.

I looked into this ride and I can understand their reluctance to let 'bents and tandems into their mix. Videos of the start shows a tight forming and fast peloton. Although I'm not aware of any evidence to support an increased risk by having us involved. I don't think RAIN has any issues.

 

[paco1961]

About 5 years ago I was on a fast group ride on my DF Singlespeed. At about 25mph or so someone turned left one block too early. Guy in front of me locked up and I was going to go right over him. Hit my back brake hard and went into a skid. Only choice was to hit the front. I went straight over the top, bike and I flipped. Landed squarely on my upper back and right hip. Nothing broken but 6 months of cartilage repair in pelvis and ribs. Never again!

 

[velocio]

...I remember distinctly hard feathering front brakes during two criterium crashes to prevent the over the bars problem. Both times I was running on the front wheel only and the rear was sliding all over the place and worthless.

Bill, sounds like a pretty scary situation, but it sounds like no one went over their bars from hard braking, right? So I still have never observed that to happen, nor have any firsthand accounts of it happening.

In an emergency stop on a V20 no technique is needed, just a quick hard double brake squeeze.

My take on it is a bit different; i.e. In an emergency stop on a V20 very little technique is possible, just a quick hard double brake squeeze and hope for the best. On a DF, if one understands how to effectively brake, one can adjust the CG to better utilize the grip provided by both tires. On most recumbents the loading on each tire is what it is based on the bike's geometry and one can only adjust the squeeze applied to each brake lever to try to hit the default limit of adhesion of each wheel.

I would challenge any DF in a shortest stopping distance duel. For the same rider and brakes the low body CG will win every time.

I'll take that challenge! Assuming similar system weight and tires (brakes matter little, since most modern brakes can lock the wheels and provide reasonable modulation) physics is on the side of the DF rider who can adjust the loading on front and rear wheels to optimize braking. If you force the DF rider to sit locked in a bolt upright position then that's a different story. Higher CG negatively affects braking only if it causes excessive weight transfer to the front wheel and excessive unloading of the rear wheel under hard braking. CG properly placed over the two wheels, even if higher, will win every time.

-Jack

 

[Bill Wightman]

CG properly placed over the two wheels, even if higher, will win every time.

...Perhaps my reaction time is slow, so I may not be so good at stopping a DF. What I do know is that I have my V20 headrest dialed as low as it can be functionally and my eyes are even with DF seats on average. So very low CG. Also the wheels on a V20 are further apart than a DF. If I lock up the brakes hard I encounter no sliding, front or rear, on dry pavement. It seems unlikely that a DF rider will ever be able to do that. I have been wrong before (but that was months ago) .

 

[super slim]

Bill, sounds like a pretty scary situation, but it sounds like no one went over their bars from hard braking, right? So I still have never observed that to happen, nor have any firsthand accounts of it happening.


My take on it is a bit different; i.e. In an emergency stop on a V20 very little technique is possible, just a quick hard double brake squeeze and hope for the best. On a DF, if one understands how to effectively brake, one can adjust the CG to better utilize the grip provided by both tires. On most recumbents the loading on each tire is what it is based on the bike's geometry and one can only adjust the squeeze applied to each brake lever to try to hit the default limit of adhesion of each wheel.


I'll take that challenge! Assuming similar system weight and tires (brakes matter little, since most modern brakes can lock the wheels and provide reasonable modulation) physics is on the side of the DF rider who can adjust the loading on front and rear wheels to optimize braking. If you force the DF rider to sit locked in a bolt upright position then that's a different story. Higher CG negatively affects braking only if it causes excessive weight transfer to the front wheel and excessive unloading of the rear wheel under hard braking. CG properly placed over the two wheels, even if higher, will win every time.

-Jack

Dear Jack, the C of G of a rider (DF or recumbent), is approximately at the belly button!
So a DF rider on the drops, the C of G above the ground is 1.4 M, compared to a V20 or S30 of 0.75 M, and C og G behind the front wheel is 0.55m for DF, and 0.57 m for V20/S30.

From calculations of the front brakes being used by a 80 kg rider, and 0.85 Tyre to road Coefficient of friction, until the back wheel lifts off the ground, the V20 achieves 7.5 m/sec^2 de-acceleration, compared to a DF road racer of 3.54 m/sec^2, so a DF racer braking is only 47% efficient as a V20!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics