Peder Torgersen
Guru
I got a package today and there were several titanium chains.
They seem to be light have not tried these chains before.
Have some of you used these chains?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sykkel-bent/albums/72157665135935154
Chain WAXing (yes it's that easy) - and other mysteries of this art!
- Thread starter LarryOz
- Start date
I got a package today and there were several titanium chains.
They seem to be light have not tried these chains before.
Have some of you used these chains?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sykkel-bent/albums/72157665135935154
bazzawill
Guru
My Titanium chain has arrived
Just waiting on speed wax from the US. Oh and for my 10 speed Aussie friends here is a good deal $179 for the chain.
Just waiting on speed wax from the US. Oh and for my 10 speed Aussie friends here is a good deal $179 for the chain.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Wow.
1. 'Speed wax' is a ripoff. It works, of course, but still ripoff. (But if you ignore the instructions and reuse it indefinitely like it is supposed to - it is less of a ripoff).
2. Titanium chains are also a huge ripoff, but at least you do get some weight savings (rather insignificant, though).
Anyway, my corrent concoction for waxing consists of paraffin, lanolin, beeswax, carnauba wax + oil antifriction additives.
Easily 10x times more chain live compared to wet lubes, cheaper than 'Speed wax', works for hundreds of miles, resists mud and rain (to a point, of course).
I'll be improving it further, adding polymer esters, ZDDP and polyethylene wax sounds very promising.
1. 'Speed wax' is a ripoff. It works, of course, but still ripoff. (But if you ignore the instructions and reuse it indefinitely like it is supposed to - it is less of a ripoff).
2. Titanium chains are also a huge ripoff, but at least you do get some weight savings (rather insignificant, though).
Anyway, my corrent concoction for waxing consists of paraffin, lanolin, beeswax, carnauba wax + oil antifriction additives.
Easily 10x times more chain live compared to wet lubes, cheaper than 'Speed wax', works for hundreds of miles, resists mud and rain (to a point, of course).
I'll be improving it further, adding polymer esters, ZDDP and polyethylene wax sounds very promising.
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Balor
Zen MBB Master
Oh, and about relatively obscure chain manufacturers:
http://www.tayachain.com/index.php/technology/evolight
Sounds very interesting - light and, in context of waxing, VERY promising. I can envision first boiling the chain in a antifriction-optimized grease, cooling it, than dunking into a wax mix that is optimized for durability againt elements (Carnauba, Polyethylene, Microcrystalline, etc).
This way a running time of thousands of miles on one application is virtually guaranteed.
But those 'evo light' chains are not available anywhere for some reason. Din't work out too well... or worked out TOO WELL?
http://www.tayachain.com/index.php/technology/evolight
Sounds very interesting - light and, in context of waxing, VERY promising. I can envision first boiling the chain in a antifriction-optimized grease, cooling it, than dunking into a wax mix that is optimized for durability againt elements (Carnauba, Polyethylene, Microcrystalline, etc).
This way a running time of thousands of miles on one application is virtually guaranteed.
But those 'evo light' chains are not available anywhere for some reason. Din't work out too well... or worked out TOO WELL?
trapdoor2
Zen MBB Master
KMC makes a master link that is Shimano-compatible. http://kmcchain.us/connectortype/11-speed-ml/
edit: I love reading lube-wars. Best lube is the one that you will actually use. It is a lot of fun experimenting with additives, of course. My favorite is beeswax and olive oil...smells good and is edible. Mmmmm tasty chain...
I'll give the paraffin wax bit a try...but I'm really lazy. Give me something that comes in a can with a spray nozzle, I'm happy.
edit: I love reading lube-wars. Best lube is the one that you will actually use. It is a lot of fun experimenting with additives, of course. My favorite is beeswax and olive oil...smells good and is edible. Mmmmm tasty chain...
I'll give the paraffin wax bit a try...but I'm really lazy. Give me something that comes in a can with a spray nozzle, I'm happy.
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Balor
Zen MBB Master
Best lube is one that gives the longest time between applications, cleanest, lubricates and protects against wear best.
Neither is possible with wet lubes unless you cycle in sterilized environment, period. (Enclosed drivetrains on velomobiles might be a sole exception).
Not bad idea, actually. Just make sure you don't use too much oil or you'll end up with a sticky mess
.
trapdoor2
Zen MBB Master
I'm really a chain-lube philistine. You really don't want to know how long I go between applications.
However, I think I'm going to give the wax dip a try for the Vendetta. I have a block of wax around the shop somewhere. I was just being silly about the beeswax, too sticky even straight. My Beeswax/OO formula is for a completely unrelated application.
However, I think I'm going to give the wax dip a try for the Vendetta. I have a block of wax around the shop somewhere. I was just being silly about the beeswax, too sticky even straight. My Beeswax/OO formula is for a completely unrelated application.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Actually, I have a 'personal tester' - a randoneer guy who does a lot of miles.
I lube his chain about every 300-400 miles (500km) with my 'concoction' this year.
Each time chain grouth was truly minuscule, about 1.5mm total for 1600 km. However, he missed one lube and went on a 300-km brevet after, so total mileage for application turned out to be about 600 (more than 800 km). Chain started to squeak under power by than.
This time total elongation jumped to about 3mm (but we are talking about whole legth of chain, about 110 link - so this is less then 25% of wear anyway).
So, if lubing intervals are not exceeding 500 kms ridden, total chain life to full (as in 1%, actually you can run it further but drivetrain wear is magnified many times) wear would be about 20 thousand kilometres.
And we are talking about a chain on a mountain bike that is used for commuting, backcountry gravel riding and brevets, not a pure-bred road bike! Waxing is pretty indifferent to dust and dirt, unless you literally swim in it. And cheapest shimano 9-speed chain too, CN-53.
It is my personal experience that KMC x10.93 chain are about 2x times as durable than even XT shimano chains (and a bit better shifting).
I lube his chain about every 300-400 miles (500km) with my 'concoction' this year.
Each time chain grouth was truly minuscule, about 1.5mm total for 1600 km. However, he missed one lube and went on a 300-km brevet after, so total mileage for application turned out to be about 600 (more than 800 km). Chain started to squeak under power by than.
This time total elongation jumped to about 3mm (but we are talking about whole legth of chain, about 110 link - so this is less then 25% of wear anyway).
So, if lubing intervals are not exceeding 500 kms ridden, total chain life to full (as in 1%, actually you can run it further but drivetrain wear is magnified many times) wear would be about 20 thousand kilometres.
And we are talking about a chain on a mountain bike that is used for commuting, backcountry gravel riding and brevets, not a pure-bred road bike! Waxing is pretty indifferent to dust and dirt, unless you literally swim in it. And cheapest shimano 9-speed chain too, CN-53.
It is my personal experience that KMC x10.93 chain are about 2x times as durable than even XT shimano chains (and a bit better shifting).
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
I'd be curious to hear how to go about measuring and mixing said concoction. I'm bouncing around the idea of trying the waxing chain deal in my current down time. It would also help me keep any chain oil from landing on my nearly white carpet.
He's the million dollar question. It seems most people recommend re waxing the chain every 400 miles but is near the limit or a very reserved number? The reason I ask is in November I plan to get close to 520 miles in the 24hr race and I'm wondering if a single freshly waxed chain would be better then a clean freshly oil lubed chain that I can touch up at the 12hr mark. You can't touch up the wax chain during 30 second pit stop so what you start with is what you get till the end.
To start should I just buy some paraffin wax off amazon? Seems most the stuff is marketed as salon type paraffin but I'm thinking it's all the same? Or should I be looking for a certain kind of paraffin? Other option is to buy the over priced speed wax to start while I learn from you how to make something better.
I plan to just use the KMC X11SL chains in ether gold or silver.
RAR
Well-Known Member
What about having a freshly waxed chain waiting for you at the stop. With a quick disconnect and a good mechanic it doesn't take long to swap !
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
Cruzbike Chris
Well-Known Member
Jason go back to First page of thread. Larry rides over 1000 on a single waxed chain. I do the same here in Texas. Used to wax once a month now wait until I hear squeaking usually very 2 or 3 months. A single 24 hour ride with a new waxed chain you will be fine. Unless of course it's snowing!
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
It has been my experience that the only thing that will prevent you from getting less than 500 miles on a newly waxed chains is riding in excessive dirty or wet conditions.
I would just a have a duplicate chains always in the wings anyway for an event. Someone good could switch it out in under a minute for you if you needed it.
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
I'll shoot for a waxed to start and if it looks grim I'll have an oiled one ready to go. Race is in the middle of the dessert so I think I'll be on :lol
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
A reasonable approach. Start with the Molten Speed wax it is the gold standard. Learn using just 1 lb of that wax; then you can go on the cheap with other waxes and compare; I think that lets you understand the trade-offs... (Good, Fast, Cheap) pick two
Get the gold chain KMC X11SL the treatment on the metal makes the chain stronger than the silver one, that's well documented and and be tested by many biking sources. The Gold master links are a bitch to find but you can usually score them on eBay.. Or just use a silver one.
To get the best final chain:
1) Buy 3 chains;
2) then measure the size you need for the Vendetta using your old chain,
3) Then break two of the chains to be about 55% of the needed length
4) Then break the 3rd chain into two piece which you use to complete the first two chains.
5) Extra links from chains 1 and 2 gets discarded, no way around that.
You now have two chains that have the master links about as equally spaced as possible.
Get the $45 sonic jeweler cleaner from Amazon. And use Simple Green and Water to remove the factory oil/grease. Seriously folks that's the best $45 you will ever spend for cleaning bike parts. Every biker that comes here and watches me do that; orders one the next day; it's just stupid simple helpful.
Then wax both chains in a cheap used crockpot, I have a 30 year old one that's now dedicated to that use. I only clean out the old wax about every 12 months. Start fresh during indoor season since the chains never get dirty and the wax stays clean in the pot. At the end of outdoor season get fresh wax.
Molten's website has all the instruction nice and easy and clear. Follow them. Consider the price of your 1 lb of wax the cost of learning from their instructions. That's a fair trade for the knowledge.
Once you are setup with gear; waxing two chain takes about 30 minutes most of that is melting and heating wax to temperature.
You ride the chains until they squeak or creak. If racing I'd have zero issue going 600-800 miles a freshly waxed chain. If the forecast calls for rain consider carrying a tiny tube of squirt as a fail safe. You can always quick lube it on the fly; after the race use the sonic cleaner to get the chain back to virgin and re-wax
Lastly a race chain should have at least 300 miles on it; and be re-waxed and fresh for the race. Break it in for 5-10 miles before the race to make sure it's good and loose so you don't get a miss-shift because you have 1 or 2 links with excess wax
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
why at "least" 300 miles? is that to wear off any rough manufacturing defects?
can you use the ultra sonic cleaner and simple green to clean off the chain back to square one after it's already been waxed and used?
can you use the ultra sonic cleaner and simple green to clean off the chain back to square one after it's already been waxed and used?
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
300 seems to get just enough wear into the chain that he wax penetrates even deeper and it just plan runs better and longer miles. I can always tell the different between a new chain and those on their second waxing. They just need a little break in. Part of that may be my crockpot has a hard time getting the wax all the way up to temp it's really really old.
Yes you can repeat the sonic bath between waxing. recommended if the chain get real dirty, but if ridden in mostly clean conditions you can skip the second cleaning the wax when it's up to the correct temp will push all the dirt out of the dirty chain. The cleaner runs for 20 minutes max and can work as fast as 5 minutes.
Looks like the price went up; this is the one I use $60 is still cheap compared to the others out there. Big enough to do a 36T cassette
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LMF3GTE/
Oh last thing; Thick Rubber gloves; that wax is dam hot when you take the chain out. And wear safety glasses; the wax vaporizes and when you take the lid off the pot your really don't want the wax steam in your eyes.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Chain life and lubrication is a factor of chain length too. If your chain is 2x longer, it will stay lubricated and 'alive' 2x longer, too (unless there are power idlers involved).
Anyway, unless this is a cleanest race track, wax > than ANY wet lube, period.
Even in first case, few lubes would last as long, and those tend to be very thick, adding about 10 or so watts of viscous friction, as compared to about 4-5 of wax. (See friction facts test article).
Touching up a layer of thin lube might be viable, though. But remember, once ANY abrasive goes inside the chain, all positive effects of lubrication goes out of the window and, again, unless you rice a vacuumed race track - road dust and dirt (quartz and corundum, both are harder then toughened steel) will turn your wet lube into a fine grinding paste. This is a FACT.
I think that the period of wet-lubing bicycle chains would later remembered with same embarrassment as bloodletting and lack of sanitation in medicine.
As for wax concoctions, I'll be testing those more or less 'scientifically' on a power-measuring trainer in the winter, by collecting and weighting resulting 'metal shavings' from a chain with high-precision scales.
But I daresay about 10% of any high-quality antiwear/extreme pressure oil additive with moly, Teflon, esters and a bit of natural waxes like beeswax or carnauba would benefit both lubrication quality and duration greatly - this seems to be my experience.
I'm unsure about ZDDP and other EP agents that work in engine in gearboxes, but might lack required conditions (pressure and temperature) to activate in chain environment.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
And for chain life - see my post you've quoted myself.
Before chain started to actually squeak, friction and wear would be going up in a chain. So, if you are are interested in getting the most mileage (and watts) out of your chain, best keep mileage between waxings at about 300 for a chain of a 'standard' (about 110 links) size.
However, even squeaking chain is better than one full of abrasive grit. Againt, this is a fact - one guy I know does not lube chains at all, never ever. In fact, first thing he does is strip factory grease.
He gets about 2 thousand miles out of a chain, all-weather commuting - dust, dirt, corrosive reagents, etc - using very cheap shimano chains. While I'm getting many times more with regular waxings, this is still actually more than I've been getting with better quality chains and high-quality wet lubes on my niner and full-suspension DFs before I've switched to wax.
Before chain started to actually squeak, friction and wear would be going up in a chain. So, if you are are interested in getting the most mileage (and watts) out of your chain, best keep mileage between waxings at about 300 for a chain of a 'standard' (about 110 links) size.
However, even squeaking chain is better than one full of abrasive grit. Againt, this is a fact - one guy I know does not lube chains at all, never ever. In fact, first thing he does is strip factory grease.
He gets about 2 thousand miles out of a chain, all-weather commuting - dust, dirt, corrosive reagents, etc - using very cheap shimano chains. While I'm getting many times more with regular waxings, this is still actually more than I've been getting with better quality chains and high-quality wet lubes on my niner and full-suspension DFs before I've switched to wax.
