How big of a learning curve did the Vendetta take for you to get use to it??

[Ivan]

I am learning on my Silvio

I am learning on my Silvio 2.0 with a high BB so very much like Vendetta. After 5 hours practice time over 5-6 days I am now clipped in with lowest cleat tension and can start on slight uphill slopes. Not stable at speeds or tight cornering yet and I can feel my upper body is stiff and tired too. Almost fell a few times in the process but so far managed to catch myself by putting feet down and standing up. After an hour practice I am tired and can't ride the bike reliably anymore! The correct boom adjustment is critical to learning.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Upper body stiffness from

Upper body stiffness from hanging on so tight.

Open palms

Open palms

Open palms

We need your legs to find the pedal stroke that minimises arm pressures. You legs wont' be able to find the right stroke if your grip is overriding those sensations.

 

[paulbostick]

hows the laerning going0

getting used to it yet

 

[Kenneth Jessett]

When I was rallying, I kept

When I was rallying, I kept very light finger touches on the wheel, I suspect the same is required of these machines. Not easy I suppose when you feel you are about to fall over.

 

[leeinmemphis]

went today on a group ride

went today on a group ride that I usually attend on Mondays. I decided to leave the V at home and rode my Giro 26. This was the first time I've been on a different bent since I got the V. The ride is much more harsh and it just didn't feel right being on a bike without a MBB. I rode just a bit over 22 miles but I've already decided the Giro is going on classifieds. I much prefer the lower profile of the V and the seat was a whole lot more comfortable for me than the Giro's.

I plan on tomorrow practicing on handling with the V. Going to concentrate on starting/stopping and low speed handling. I had a thread on bentrider but it got WAY off topic and I deleted it. They made it more about clinical value of riding the cruzbikes over a bent/DF than what I started it as my experiences with the V.

 

[leeinmemphis]

rode today just around 12

rode today just around 12 miles with my wife with her on her trike. I was mainly trying to focus on my pedal stroke and starts/stops. Last corner from the house my wife turns suddenly and down I go again. I don't think I broke anything but I took a pretty bad lick. I was just getting ready to tell my wife that I was going to try to do 30 miles on V tomorrow. Depending on how sore I am I may still try at it.

 

[leeinmemphis]

today was a good day for me

today was a good day for me out on the V. This morning I swapped out the spd pedals for a set of spd's with a regular platform pedal on one side and spd on the other. Having that platform made starting from a stop much easier. I will go back to regular spd's once I get more comfortable. I feel like I learned alot about how to handle the bike. I rode for almost 23 miles and today on purpose took the route with some of steepest hills close to the house. I can tell that I am using alot more of my hamstring. I was able to start peddling from a stop most of the time and tried to keep a consistent pedal stroke. I do notice that I am shifting earlier than I normally would because my cadence gets sloppy and the bike weaves. I've never had a bike with a cadence feature but it may not be a bad idea on this bike.

First time trying a link on here because I can't use the img links I'm use to:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/leeinmemphis/media/null-17.jpg.html


I had some ICE saddlebags that I took to the local cobbler shop to shorten the straps and I'm really happy with how they turned out. I tried putting my brainbox on that back but it just wasn't what want. On one side is my water bladder and the other is wallet, tools, phone, tube etc.

 

[Jeremy S]

Thanks for the report Lee.

Thanks for the report Lee. I'm thinking about trying SPD pedals soon (I have never clipped in to any bike before), and there are a bunch of options. Right now I'm thinking of Shimano A600, single sided with a supporting area around the clip. I am a little worried about starts. What model pedal did you have before swapping?

 

[leeinmemphis]

Jeremy I had a set of Deore

Jeremy I had a set of Deore XT spd's on originally. The platform/spd combination pedal I have had for years and are normally on my trike. I'll probably be a few weeks until I can go to the XT's. Really on the starts/stops its not bad if you do the Fred Flinstone for a few feet then throw your legs up but I'm trying to do most of my starting with the pedals. Sometimes it's a piece of cake and others can end up a mess. I know it'll come with time and today was really the first time that I've taken it out on the road(outside of the subdivision). I wasn't really pushing the speed or anything.....trying to get comfortable with handling/pedal stroke.

I had two fairly significant hills today and the V definitely climbs better than any other 'bent or conventional bike that I've ridden. I could use my palms on the bars to push my body against the seat and apply more pressure to the pedals.

 

[Ivan]

Jeremy, I have used various

Jeremy, I have used various mountain spd and road spd-sl combinations. I now use the A600 pedals. In fact I have 2 sets and use them both on my brompton and my road bike. It is an EXCELLENT lesser known pedal which is light and the wider platform works. It decreased my pressure point issues on my metatarsals. I have 2 sets of shoes I use. Shimano MT42 for casual rides and the touring RT82 shoe. The RT82 is far superior but harder to find. It is unique and I love it. It looks like a road shoe, but uses the SPD cleat. It is recessed like a mountain shoe so you can walk normally, but it doesn't have as much material around the cleat like a mountain shoe so is much lighter. Shimano designed the A600 pedal and RT82 shoe to very much go together and it is fantastic. My RT82 shoe is only a tiny bit heavier than my previous RT87 full on spd-sl road shoe. The benefit is I can walk normally!!

 

[Ivan]

Lee, in your photos you don't

Lee, in your photos you don't look like you are resting your head on the headrest. Is it adjusted too short and would you be better lengthening it so the base of your skull rests on the headrest?

Your falls sound rather scary! Can you figure out why you are suddenly tipping over like that. The only time I had to catch myself from falling (still learning Silvio 2.0 ) was when I am practicing sharp U turns or figure eights. I have always put my foot down in time and not actually hit the ground. I don't think falling so hard so many times is necessary to learn the MBB platform is it? I am glad to hear you are so tenacious, but if you could figure out why you are falling like that you could avoid further damage to your body and to V.

 

[leeinmemphis]

yeah the headrest has been

yeah the headrest has been adjusted since the picture was taken. I put 33 miles on it today and had a good but bad ride. We rode a great route but at a stop sign I got in a hurry trying to get through an intersection and fell over. Then while riding down a rode that I normally wouldn't ride because of the traffic I was hit by the mirror of a Cadillac and was thrown off the bike(no fault of me or the bike....old granny just didn't see us and quite honestly I didn't feel ok about riding it but I did go since the rest of the group went). The final thing was when we turned into the parking lot where our cars were parked and my front end slid out in some sand and the lady behind me ran over me. Ended up with some pretty good road rash on my butt/back from that one.

I'm leaving to go out of town and was planning on taking it with me but now not sure if it's a good idea. I really don't understand why I'm having such a hard time. I'm hesitant to carry it to the beach this week(especially worried about sand in the bike lanes that are close to the beach.) and then the following week going to WI for the midwest recumbent rally. Gotta be honest I'm starting to wonder if all this effort/falls is even worth it. I like the bike and am getting more comfortable with it but at the same time seem to be screwing up too often. The bike fits me great and I've got better at starting from a stop.

 

[marshall2389]

wow, you have been enduring

wow, you have been enduring some serious crashes. I hope it gets better.

 

[John Tolhurst]

I really don't understand why

I really don't understand why I'm having such a hard time ...

That's the question. I don't know the answer, but there is an element of the training steps that you have not assimilated. Or you have a carry over technique that is tripping you up. For example, if you have a built in and unconscious habit carried over from riding RWD bents, such as holding one leg firm at times when you concentrate on corner lines, then that would explain a lot. If we knew we could address. So if that holding firm was the reason, we could suggest drills to eradicate that. In motorcycle parlance, you have a SR, a Survival Reaction, that is kicking in and taking you down. You can look up Kieth Code and Survival Reactions to better understand how many reactions to road situations are themselves the actual cause of the error.

 

[Jeremy S]

Thanks for the shoe

Thanks for the shoe suggestions Ivan. I thought I recognized the pedals on your Silvio.

 

[billyk]

"unconscious habit carried over from riding RWD bents"??

John T -

Very intrigued by your comment "?if you have a built in and unconscious habit carried over from riding RWD bents, such as holding one leg firm at times when you concentrate on corner lines, then that would explain a lot".

Please explain what you mean by "corner lines".

I might have this problem, if I understand you correctly. (And I have 15 years of daily riding an RWD bent to justify it). Do you mean stopping pedaling and holding the outer leg straight while turning? Why is that bad and what is the rider supposed to do?

BK

 

[John Tolhurst]

I meant Kieth Code and SRs 

I meant Kieth Code and SRs (pasted under, from http://boiseriders.net/motorcycle-talk/3570-riding-tips-survival-reactions.html)

Bicycle riding is the same, just we have a little different range of inputs.

Holding the leg in position is bad if it affects your ability to feel and handle the bike. Loose hips, soft touch, relaxed, all those pointers are aimed at one thing, which is to make sure that your mind has access to the feedback it needs to control the bike.

A survival reaction is a reaction caused by a moment of panic, I'm too wide, too close, too leaned over, too fast, and so on. Survival reactions on the bicycle generally are white knuckles, refusal to tighten the cornering line, fixating on one spot, and I conjecture, stiff legs, which of course then inhibit steering.

Survival Reactions
Keith Code explains "Survival reactions" (SRs) come from your instinct to avoid injury but they often end up causing injury. There are 7 SRs listed in the book. Survival reactions are automatic because they are an unconscious reaction. Case in point, we don't have to focus on blinking our eyes to protect them when something unexpected happens.
The common survival reactions most of us have can either cause or increase the risk of crashing. They are the source of 100% of all rider errors! Because they do, in fact, ruin your riding.

An example is rolling on/off the throttle when cornering. Keith Code did a survey of over 8000 riders & concluded that not one of them ever intended to roll on/off; 100% of them meant to roll on, throughout the turn. Something changed their minds. Rolling off the throttle is survival reaction (SR) # 1. His survey shows it to be the first line of defense when any situation triggers a SR. The standard SR triggers are:
"In too fast ."
"Going too wide,"
"Too steep lean angle."
"Concerned about traction."
Bumps, traffic and others are secondary sources of unneeded throttle roll-off. Riders most often realize the roll-off was not necessary, right after doing it. Further proof it was an automatic SR.

The 7 SR's listed by Keith Code:
1. Roll-off the gas.
2. Tighten on bars.
3. Narrowed and frantically hunting* field of view.
4. Fixed attention (on something).
5. Steering in the direction of the fixed attention.
6. No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early) steering.
7. Braking errors (both over- and under-braking).

SR's are an attempt to reduce or avoid injury. They don't work in harmony with machine technology or rider control. We will learn how to defeat them in the up coming threads.

 

[fastpastprime]

Survival

A few observations as another new Vendetta rider. I too have some recumbent experience although not years commuting. I have owned a LWB RWD USS Longbike that was incredibly stable at high speed. My fastest recorded speed was 52 mph and only limited by gearing. At this point in time with just a handful of 25+ mile rides on the Vendetta I am very uncomfortable on any downhill over 20 mph or so. My choice here seems to be heads up coasting with light braking to keep my speed down or continuing to pedal lightly while braking. Initiating a pedal stroke at speed downhill seems deadly.

My findings:

Do not under any circumstances lock up the brakes. Panic braking is a normal reaction to an emergency situation(hence the invention of ABS). Lock up the brakes and this thing will go down faster than a two dollar whore. I have substantial road rash on both forearms to back up this statement. Fortunately I did not damage the frame of the bike. When I get wobbly and feel I am starting to loose it I find it best to lean slightly forward stop pedaling and brake lightly.

Keep pedaling- Initiating a pedal stroke at higher speeds needs to be very smooth in order to remain stable.

For tight turns I have found I like sitting up and disconnect my legs- not removed from the pedals but totally relaxed and let the steering come from the bars and body lean.

I like the comfort a lot with my head on the headrest(once fine tuned not to interfere with my helmet) but my balance needs to be perfect and my body relaxed. It's coming slowly.

A mirror seems to be a must have. I can't turn enough to see behind me. This means I have to stop before turning left. Getting started is still a bit slow so I need a big gap in traffic. I'm only riding lightly traveled roads or those with big shoulders. Soon I will try to bring up the rear on one of my local club rides. I'm sure riding with others would make me more visible. I have a much greater fear of traffic on this bike.

I see the potential to get fast. I set my first Strava KOM on this bike on my third ride(see A Philbrook). Probably a segment that the faster riders in my area have overlooked. To be fair I was 4th or 5th on my time trial bike on the same segment. I had other personal bests this morning.

My Raxter receiver hitch bike rack is a perfect fit for this bike. It touches only the wheels so never scratches and is very adjustable to different bikes. My only gripe is that it doesn't fold.

My standard small seatbag fits well above the lower rear wheel stays. Secure and aero.

The stock bottle cage location is a no go for me. My legs hit the bottle and I don't have big legs. I'm just 5'8" and 150.

The plastic clamp rings that seemed to be spare parts included in the frameset work well to secure bottle cages to the headrest. Again- secure and aero. I can pull it from a seated position but I can't yet replace it. Doesn't matter- I can't ride one handed yet anyway.

My right leg constantly grazes the front brake, cable side. I bet this is one reason for Cruzbike adding the disc option. I built up with a full Sram Red group and run a used wheelset so the disc thing is not an option for me at this point. I'm not raw from the contact but is is annoying.

I have an inflamed vertebrae low in my back from pressure on the seat. I feel I tend to round my back a bit and pull on the bars for power when climbing rather than driving my hips into the seat. Hopefully I can adjust my riding style enough to alleviate this.

I would challenge anyone who says this bike climbs as well as a DF bike. Better than other recumbents I could believe.

This bike seems to be very unforgiving of mistakes. One needs to maintain excellent balance, stay relaxed and focused.

I may grow to love the V. It has the ability to go fast which I love to do under my own power. Maybe I'll keep it.

 

[Jeremy S]

My right leg constantly

My right leg constantly grazes the front brake, cable side. I bet this is one reason for Cruzbike adding the disc option. I built up with a full Sram Red group and run a used wheelset so the disc thing is not an option for me at this point. I'm not raw from the contact but is is annoying.

I'm a bit worried about this one after doing the initial fitting on my Silvio (with SRAM Rival). I will have to see if it's a real issue when riding the bike.

Here's a suggestion for Cruzbike: in addition to the Cruzbike-branded rim-brake compatible wheels (which I purchased), offer disc-brake compatible Cruzbike-branded wheels. These would be a perfect complement for the new Silvio and Vendetta with disc brake tabs. Also offer disc brake options in your standard component groupsets.

 

[Romagjack]

Thanks Alan for your

Thanks Alan for your comments. Yes, there are some compromises with front wheel drive recumbents. You have really come a long way in a short time considering that your experience is mostly rear wheel drive bikes. You're really learning how to ride a whole new animal and it can take a while to feel as relaxed and confident as you are on your other bikes. Yes, you will be able to lift your head to look around when turning left and one handed riding will not be an issue. Beside going fast in a relaxed posture, you will come to enjoy powering through corners at speed when others are feathering their brakes. I hope you will keep the V and continue to update this forum on your progress.