How Many Watts Are Needed To Break The Current 24HR World Record?

[RojoRacing]

So I'm really kind of regretting not having a power meter for last years 24hr race because it would have gone a long way towards establishing a baseline. In the past I regulated my effort based on my HR but lately I've kept an eye on my Watts more. I don't have any one goal for watt output for any one ride, I mostly monitor how I feel and take note of how many watts. Last Saturday's double century I tried to keep my total avg watts at around 200 based on the fact that I thought that's what I did at the last one. I turns out 200 was what I held for the first 100 and the 200 avg was only 180, I guess my memory could use a little work. I really think I could have avg 200 in last Saturday's race had it not been for the missing aid stations and dehydration. Now I'm in the final stretch of race prep and thinking about how I should attack the race. Total avg watts for these 200 mile rides is about 180-185 with a weighted avg of 200watts and they are all about 11-12hours so half 24hr distance. Unfortunately these races are all very mountainous and it's hard for me to figure how that changes my overall avg output when 10% of the race is spent coasting DH. The 24hr event in November will be much flatter and February's event will be even flatter still. I thought I could shoot for 200 watts for the 24hrs but this last race left me in doubt on how feasible that number is.

I will say that given the amount of climbing in Novembers event I won't be shooting to break the world record of 560 miles, that's going to have to wait till February. Novembers race is going to be a test run to see how hard I can push and pace myself for the full distance. I hope that with a few tweaks and a similar output on a flatter course will net us the extra 30-40 miles needed to break the record.

Here is an article about Chris Strasser's world record run with power data and stuff. I think the major difference between our runs will be I have to pit to refuel while it looks like he was able to get support from a van while rolling. He avg 250 watts and I'm debating if 200 is even possible. I wonder if the Vendetta is worth 50 watts over a full blown TT bike and skin suit/helmet setup.
http://www.power2max.de/europe/en/896-km-christoph-strassers-24-h-world-record-an-analysis/

And no I can't get a baseline from the indoor trainer because I don't have the mental fortitude to ride at my best on a trainer.

 

[LMT]

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
The above will give a fairly basic idea of what watts gives what speed, and in answer to your question, maybe, Larry's record century had a NP of less than 200w - and this was a sub 4 hr century.

Off the top of my head you'd need your drag co-efficient to really know how much watts is needed for what speed. And even then there are external factors such as wind and even the air pressure.

 

[RojoRacing]

I think what I'm looking to nail down is not what I need to do a certain distance but what is the most I got to give and I'll just let the distance come to me.

 

[LarryOz]

He avg 250 watts and I'm debating if 200 is even possible. I wonder if the Vendetta is worth 50 watts over a full blown TT bike and skin suit/helmet setup.

I'm not sure how far away you are from Borrego. But, if it were my, I would ride one of the loops at the speed you want to maintain and see what kind of power it took you to do it.
200 watts for 24 hours is a tall order. You see able to do NP of 200 for about 12 hours on a mountainous route, but I think it is harder to sustain a higher wattage on a predominantly flat route. Not sure why, but maybe being able to rest on the DH sections is part of it.
That's what I do at the track to test my speed/watts factor on different bikes or equipment. From that I can kind of tell which one is the fastest, or which equipment is better.
There are obviously so many factors that come into play, but aerodynamics are a big one. And if I remember correctly, body size and position account for 75-80% of it.
Obviously weather is another big one and you don't have any control over that!
Good Luck with whatever you do. I was thinking about coming to d the 6 hour (shooting for 150 miles), but that weekend turns out to be my father's 80 birthday party weekend.
I might just try a 6 hour "test" at the track instead one weekend.

Larry's record century had a NP of less than 200w - and this was a sub 4 hr century.

Lee is correct and that was on an open road with slightly wind conditions.
I have fine tuned my aerodynamics on the bike since then, and my last "test" ride on a track I was able to average 27.01 mph (7 mile test) on 202 avg watts, Np=205.
Same day, I average 24.07 on only 150 watts. (So, this means I could do 577 in 24 hours if I averaged 150 watts the whole time? Seems impossible when comparing Strassers 556 miles in 24 hours on 240 watts doesn't it?)
I think being only 5'7" and 65 Kg probably helps a little, but that is why I would also never be able to average 200 watts for 24 hours either!

Something to also consider. Strasser rode at about 65% of his FTP (370 - wow!) for 24 hours. That 65% is probably a good target to shoot for and if you could do it, it would be an indication that your endurance level would be comparable to Strasser's over 24 hours.

Well, whatever you do - you are a powerful rider - good luck in the event!

 

[LMT]

I think what I'm looking to nail down is not what I need to do a certain distance but what is the most I got to give and I'll just let the distance come to me.

In this case, I'd recommend doing what Larry done and go down to an Oval Track and do some power testing, experiment with some more aero setups on the bike and look at what power gives what.

 

[ratz]

I thought I could shoot for 200 watts for the 24hrs but this last race left me in doubt on how feasible that number is.

The answers can mostly be computed; knowing CdA and CdR will help but if you use published numbers for the best TT bikes you'll be close.

https://www.bestbikesplit.com

 

[LarryOz]

FYI Jason - Strasser is going to do a 12 & 24 hour record attempt on a track sometime soon.
My bet is that he will eclipse his 566 mile record, so if you beat it, beat it by a lot - Might as well train to break 600!

 

[RojoRacing]

FYI Jason - Strasser is going to do a 12 & 24 hour record attempt on a track sometime soon.
My bet is that he will eclipse his 566 mile record, so if you beat it, beat it by a lot - Might as well train to break 600!

track and open road are different though right? I'll never do it on a track unless I got paid a lot of money

 

[LarryOz]

track and open road are different though right? I'll never do it on a track unless I got paid a lot of money

It depends on who is tracking the "record". UMCA recognizes, road, outdoor track, and indoor track as different records.
Speeds will generally increase from road to outdoor track, and also from outdoor track to indoor track.

 

[RojoRacing]

Ok so in a last ditch effort rate my current fitness and pacing goals for the upcoming 24hr in a few weeks I actually rode a bunch of flat loops around my town. For those of you who follow my strava account know my rides just aren't flat enough in my area to hold consistent 24hr pacing. I laid out a 14mile route with low traffic and minimal stop sign I could safely run if clear. The roads aren't the smoothest as they range from course chip seal to course chip seal with a case of acne so I road the 25mm Pro One tires at 85 PSI and they did a damn good job of reducing the vibration. If I remember correctly the Berrego Springs road were similarly rough on about half the loop so I'll probably stick with 85psi there as well. The goal today was to avg about 200 watts for 200-250 miles because 200 watts is a nice round number and my OCD likes round numbers . I started out at 5am in a nice cool 55degs so my lethargic HR settled into the 120 range which is a bit low for 200 watts but hey who am I to argue with my heart if it want's to give more for less . First 3 hrs went smooth with me averaging 201 watts then I made a quick pit stop at my house to swap bottles and headed back out. The sun had been up for a hour or so my body was starting to wake up as I watched my power values climb slightly along with my HR. Over the next hour I raised my avg watts to 205 before I made a conscious effort to back off and keep it close to 200 by the end. It was around the 60 mile mark I started to feel my right knee acting up and by mile 80 it had become apparent that the same debilitating knee pain from last weeks 200 mile ride was coming back. By the time I got to mile 100 the pain was distracting and by 120 miles I was finding it hard to hold 200 watts as I watch my avg drop to 201. This pain only happens after several hours and only appeared after switch back to my old favorite GIRO shoes which are more comfortable then the Specialized S-Works I've been using all year. I'm going to swap back to the Specialized shoes and try to do this ride one more time before the race to see it the pain doesn't show up. I'm also going to focus on some stretching to help get that leg looser just in case that's also part of the problem.

All said and done I got in 131 miles in 5:40 so that's an avg speed of 23.1 mph which is basically the exact speed I'll need to hold to break the current 560 mile record. One thing I found curious was the variability index value mentioned in the article written about Christoph Strasser ride, they mentioned the closer your total avg watts is to your calculated normalized power the better you did at pacing yourself consistently. His normalized power was 254 and his avg was 250 so it was within 1% which is basically perfect. Today my normalized power was 203 and my avg was 202 so I just need to hold that for 18 more hours .

The knee pain really screwed up the purpose of this ride because it kind of felt like I could have continued at 200 watts with ease based on how my cardio and left leg felt but my right knee was just influencing too much in a bad way to know for sure.

 

[LarryOz]

Jason.
Great data - What will be really interesting to track is how over time your HR tracks to your 200 watt average. (In your testing, remember to hit your lap counter for each lap, or every hour at the minimum.)
I don't know how it works for everyone else, but as I fatigue, I have to eventually work harder to maintain the same wattage. i.e My heart rate goes higher and higher over time.
Obviously you need to resolve your knee pain issue for you to be able to ride 24-hours.
Looking forward to your next test - or your race - whichever comes first.

 

[RojoRacing]

My HR is really dependent on the current air temp, cold it's low hotter it's higher. If were to consider my past mtb 24hr event's where I can lay down two hot laps at the very end that are within a min or two of my fastest lap at the beginning of the race you'd see the same lap time but with a HR lower by 15-20 bpms. As I fatigue my heart gets lazy and runs slower even at the same wattage or lap time since I didn't have a power meter back then.

 

[Bill K]

Just a thought on your knee pain issue: carefully compare the toe-to-heel alignment of the cleats on your two pair of shoes.
Since it sounds like you only get knee pain with the one pair of shoes this is the first thing I would look at.
I have had knee pain caused by this before, and it would start in to 4 to 5 hour range.
For me any twisting pressure caused by insufficient pedal float, even the smallest amount, will eventually cause knee pain.

 

[LMT]

Jason.
Great data - What will be really interesting to track is how over time your HR tracks to your 200 watt average. (In your testing, remember to hit your lap counter for each lap, or every hour at the minimum.)
I don't know how it works for everyone else, but as I fatigue, I have to eventually work harder to maintain the same wattage. i.e My heart rate goes higher and higher over time.
Obviously you need to resolve your knee pain issue for you to be able to ride 24-hours.
Looking forward to your next test - or your race - whichever comes first.

Larry raises a good point and this is a great test to measure your aerobic fitness.

Ideally over the duration of an aerobic/endurance (4 hours +) ride keeping a constant power your HR should not increase by more than 5%, if it does then back off.

 

[cranky cyclist]

Just a thought on your knee pain issue: carefully compare the toe-to-heel alignment of the cleats on your two pair of shoes.
Since it sounds like you only get knee pain with the one pair of shoes this is the first thing I would look at.
I have had knee pain caused by this before, and it would start in to 4 to 5 hour range.
For me any twisting pressure caused by insufficient pedal float, even the smallest amount, will eventually cause knee pain.

Also if you are using the specialized inserts, they have a little percentage of can't. This is to keep your knees from moving inwards on the pedal stroke. So, if you have the inserts in the Specialized shoes and not the Giro shoes this may also be the source of your knee pain.

 

[RojoRacing]

Well my specialized shoes are built with a slight tilt already in them and I was using a single under the insole insert. The insert was taking up valuable space in the shoe so when I switched the Giro shoes I opted for cleat shims to equally the angle I was using in the specialized shoes. I'm going to try a focus on using a foam roller to massage and stretch out my IT band and quads in hopes that they are just over tight and causing my knee issues.

 

[RojoRacing]

So while I was riding this failed 200 mile effort I completed my first 100 miles in a little under 4:20 which is damn good when you consider I was shooting for 24hr effort. My pace held steading till I quite with the knee pain but as I was rolling along I started to think about my projected time for the 200 miles. In all these double centuries I've been doing this year, averaging 20 mph and going sub 10hrs has always been a goal not yet in reach. The idea of not only breaking 10 hrs but going one step further and going sub 9 hrs was a cool prospect. I wondered what the 200 mile outdoor records looked like. Had someone managed to solo for 200 miles at over 25mph and gone sub 8hrs? I turns out the DF record is 8:17 so I was about 23mins off the pace but then I wasn't pacing for 200 miles ether. The idea of me going 1.8mph faster then I already was seemed like more effort then I'd want to commit to for 8hrs. Going 7:?? In a 200 mile effort could be one more goal to shoot for in the future.

 

[LarryOz]

I turns out the DF record is 8:17 so I was about 23mins off the pace but then I wasn't pacing for 200 miles ether. The idea of me going 1.8mph faster then I already was seemed like more effort then I'd want to commit to for 8hrs. Going 7:?? In a 200 mile effort could be one more goal to shoot for in the future.

Yes, that is the DF record - on an outdoor-track. (Indoor track is just a tad over 8hrs, by Baloh, but those indoor tracks will give you an extra 1mph at least - so fast. I was actually going to try and break 8:17 this past Thurday, but 2 things ended up making me bomb out: I got hot foot at 40 miles and the wind really started to pick up (good 15 mph) and pretty constant with bigger gusts. I finished the first 100 in 4:03 (which was too bad considering the wind), but my feet were hurting so much I decided to stop. My average speed was 24.7'sh at that time I think. Anyway - I walked around a bit, went to the bathroom and changed shoes. Hoped back on the bike about 6 minutes later and my average speed was down to 24.1. Amazingly what taking 6 minutes off does to you average speed even after 100 miles. Anyway, the wind just got worse and worse and my hot foot did not go away, so I just decided to make it a 6 hour TT instead. I think I ended up with 143.7 miles even with 6 minutes off the bike. I'm really hoping someday to be able to break 8:17, and hopeful for sub 8 hour, but it will have to be perfect conditions. In the summer will help to when it is warmer.

 

[RojoRacing]

:lol it may become a race to see which of us can go 200 miles in sub 8hrs first. I'm pretty sure I could do it if I paced for an 8hr effort because right now I'm pacing for 24hrs. But like you said there's a big difference between 24mph and 25mph. It's crazy how fast you are when you consider you rode 100 miles on your way to 200 just like me but 14 mins faster then I.

I thought I read somewhere that power meters based at the crank or pedals read a lower power value when using oval rings, is that true? I seem to recall someone saying that the Rotor crank power meters are built to account for the oval and give correct values. I'm wondering if my 200 watts isn't actually more like 210-220 or if I'm just a weak 200 watt kind of guy :lol

 

[RojoRacing]

With around 15 watts less your averaging about 1mph more then me. I know you weigh less then me but on a steady state ride like this I wonder how much that weight difference matters. I also wonder how much speed your track loops gain you over my open roads route where I have tight 90 deg corners and a dozen stop signs ever 14 mile lap to contend with. I guess it's a mute point since I can fathom the mental numbness required to do those tiny little laps hundreds of time.

I guess there's also you handlebar setup to factor when comparing our speeds. Every time I've tried to hold on to the flats of my bars between the hoods I nearly crash. It's crazy how all stability is lost when I try moving my hand to the center. I think rotating my hand 90degs to hold that part of the bars doesn't help ether with my bad wrists. I've considered some narrow gunners bars so I can maintain the same wrist rotation and just move my hand to center but that'll have to wait till I have more time and money.

Why tri spoke on the rear on thurs day vs a disc?