How to make your Vendetta as fast as possible

[Tor Hovland]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we already have a thread with all the accumulated wisdom on how to optimize the Vendetta for speed.

I'm talking about upgrades that any Vendetta owner can do to their own bike to make it lighter and more aero, within reasonable cost. Example topics:

• What's the best overall front and rear wheel configuration that isn't too nervous in crosswinds?
• How to build your own disc wheel.
• What's the most aero handlebar?
• What kind of accessories (e.g. storage boxes) will improve air flow?
• Does putting tape on parts such as cranks improve air flow?
• What type of clothing, including shoes and helmets, is recommended?
• Does upgrading the frame itself (V1.0 -> V1.5 -> V2.0 -> V20) provide a real speed advantage?

Feel free to link to other threads that cover relevant topics in depth.

Topics that require advanced machining skills, such as building custom bike parts, are out of scope here.

 

[Andrew Wilson]

Looking fwd to the replies.

 

[Frito Bandito]

The uploader "Catrike & The Flaming Eyeball" uploaded a video of making a disc wheel using Monokote that I think is incredible. You can do this with a very light wheel, possibly with ceramic bearings, and get an incredible bang-for-your-buck wheel. My Campagnolo Scirocco (front) is 788g, and my Zonda is 673g, and I'll probably go with the Scirocco simply because it is brand new and I have a few sets of bearings for it, and the Zondas already have about 15,000 miles on them. There are a few other videos on Youtube showing home made disc wheels, but the Monokote one seems to be the least likely to fail and keeps the wheel the truest...
Edit: ... since the monokote is lighter than the material the other guys use for the cover, and it doesn't require a line of glue holding the two ends of the material together.

 

[3bs]

"come on, man" (insert untold # of political jokes here) @Tor Hovland , part of the fun is the hunt! having spent more hours than i can admit to my wife chasing historical annotations, where would the fun be in us having a smaller repository of information than this forum?

heck just doing a posts index on several of the elders of the tribe will get good (but somewhat varied) answers to 1-6. 7 is the only one i don't think i have ever seen an answer to.
here are just a few to chase posts on.

@LarryOz
@RojoRacing
@ed72
@ratz

currently the most aggressive chaser of speed parts is @Frito Bandito

and i have enjoyed greatly your posts. watching the videos particularly.

 

[David Risley]

I share Tor’s interest in collecting the best answers to his questions in one current place for easy finding and reference.

I am riding a mostly stock V20, but with interest in seeing what I can do in a 12-hour event (aiming for the 70+ age category a little over a year from now) I want to be as aero as reasonably possible to maximize energy efficient speed. I am interested, for example, in finding aero wheels without breaking the bank or, as Tor says, becoming unstable in crosswinds.

So, like Andrew, I look forward to responses.

 

[Tor Hovland]

That Monokote wheel cover is amazing! It looks messy and wrinkly at first, but the result is spectacular.

Of course, I'm not even sure if a disc wheel is the best option all-round. Might an 88mm wheel (on the rear) be better?

For a while I had a set of Yoeleo wheels on my DF. 60mm front and 88mm rear. That rear wheel was just fine, but I couldn't get along with the 60mm front during descents, so I sold them. I did on occasion try the 60mm as a Vendetta rear wheel, and that was no problem. I wonder if a deep front wheel on the Vendetta will be as nervous as on the DF. It might not be, due to the added stability from steering with hands and feet. I just don't know, and I'd like to hear from somebody with experience. I'm currently thinking 50mm front and 88mm rear might be ideal.

 

[benphyr]

... 7 is the only one i don't think i have ever seen an answer to...

There would be a lot of variables to this question. It would be very hard to get the same setup, components, etc. on two different generations of V to compare but it should be doable to compare frame weight and (subjectively) stiffness. Head tube angle, rake, and trail measurements. Hmmm intriguing question.

 

[LarryOz]

Of course, I'm not even sure if a disc wheel is the best option all-round. Might an 88mm wheel (on the rear) be better?

For a while I had a set of Yoeleo wheels on my DF. 60mm front and 88mm rear. That rear wheel was just fine, but I couldn't get along with the 60mm front during descents, so I sold them. I did on occasion try the 60mm as a Vendetta rear wheel, and that was no problem. I wonder if a deep front wheel on the Vendetta will be as nervous as on the DF. It might not be, due to the added stability from steering with hands and feet. I just don't know, and I'd like to hear from somebody with experience. I'm currently thinking 50mm front and 88mm rear might be ideal.

I rode front and back disc wheels in my first 24-hour race in Sebring in 2015 (before I knew any better). It was a hair raising experience and I crashed at the 23:30 mark and tore my rotator cuff. Not sure if wind or balance related. I have also had serious high speed crashes even on flat courses because of dual disc wheels. Therefore, I will never ride a front fully covered disc again unless it is in an inside veledrome or outside closed course with almost no wind. I have been taken down just by wind too many times and it is scary. Plus, when windy and open road course sometimes having a full disc is bad for your speed.
I do ride rear full disc all the time and about 80mm front (most all the time) - This is very stable for me, but this is will a full set of handlebars.
With all these "speed" enhancements there is always a give a take.

For instance: I set-up a proto-type Rear frame (That Jim Parker had Thom O build) , with a Full stock Cruzbike Front end, , stubby handlebar, and a seat that was mounted flat.
I could go 25mph on 150watts on an outdoor Velodrome (Northbrooke) - Set a Record for 100 Miles 3:48:10 (26.23mph) (https://ultracycling.com/record/larry-oslund-100-mile-outdoor-track-record/) - What I did not do is ride very much laying flat. It is a pretty well known fact that the flatter you lay back the harder it is to make power, especially over a longer period of time. The last 45 mins of that attempt I was in agony just trying to maintain 150-160 watts, when I could normally have held 200 for the entire 4 hours. So you trade off aero for power making ability. You have to find your own sweetspot.
..
Another example is the Stubby handlebar. This is definitely more aero, but it is significantly harder to maintain your balance with your hands and arms closer to your body. So you trading safety and comfort for Speed.
..
The ultimate answer - loose weight and get stronger. A bigger engine on a smaller frame helps a lot!
..
I'll try and come up with a better list when I have more time.
Larry

 

[Andrew Wilson]

Any thoughts on drag created by the water bottles under the seat? I have mine mounted lower than stock placement for ease of use. I moved them down by having the lower hole become my top hole then drilled a new lower hole. I was toying with the idea of 3d printing a ‘bottle fairing’ to attach to the seat just in front of the bottle but wonder if it’s really worth it. As to using monokote on a wheel, I’ve done that a couple if times on a DF and on my Baron. It works great but when I used it daily, it would require reheating often to retighten as it would stretch and get loose overtime. As to Bars, I found the old style Gary bars the best compromise between narrow and control.

 

[Mathew Fy]

Tire size:
While larger width tires have lower rolling resistance (especially on rough road surfaces), narrow tires/wheels have less wind resistance. I’m using Enve ARs with 30mm tubeless and think this is a good balance for my speed - under 25mph.

 

[Mathew Fy]

Any thoughts on drag created by the water bottles under the seat?

I think air flow under the seat and up behind the shoulders is harmed by the bottle there. A fairing may smooth it a bit, but the empty space past the bottle would probably have turbulent flow. I don’t know how many watts are being lost here, though. I recall that Cruzbike’s wind tunnel testing showed the Race Case reduced drag, more so with a water bottle in it. This advantage depends on smooth air flow under the seat.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Any thoughts on drag created by the water bottles under the seat? I have mine mounted lower than stock placement for ease of use. I moved them down by having the lower hole become my top hole then drilled a new lower hole. I was toying with the idea of 3d printing a ‘bottle fairing’ to attach to the seat just in front of the bottle but wonder if it’s really worth it. As to using monokote on a wheel, I’ve done that a couple if times on a DF and on my Baron. It works great but when I used it daily, it would require reheating often to retighten as it would stretch and get loose overtime. As to Bars, I found the old style Gary bars the best compromise between narrow and control.

a 3D printing of a seat pan sounds like a great idea.

I hadn't thought of the monokote needing retightening but it is good to know. Now I just have to pick a color to match my frame


As for the bottle holders under the seat, I drilled holes in my seat a little higher to try and get the bottles behind the shoulders. That space is limited up there, but with the right cages and bottle shape it is doable without ejecting them on every bump. One of the bad things about it is that unless you are a contortionist and have the balance of a cat, getting the bottle out of the cage without sitting up has proven impossible for me. To rectify this I will buy some plastic tubing, Y splitter and some silicon to make a long straw that drapes over my shoulder or clips to the helmet and have it installed by Summer when I actually need 2 bottles. If you are going to do this make sure you check the rear brake clearance if you use clinchers before you start drilling. Also, I hear from a reliable source to make sure the screws are short enough to not prevent insertion of the bottle Putting the bottles up higher allowed easier access to the bag on the drive side.


To clean up the bars I'll be switching from the 2X11 Shimano 105 mechanical set to a Di2 Ultegra set with the satellite shifters so there are only brake levers and the mirror hanging out in the breeze. At least that will get the hoods out of the way. The used market here is really nice, just gotta be patient. For now, I cleaned up the cables as well as possible, and will stick my Wahoo Bolt down on the frame between my legs with some velcro tape.

 

[Frito Bandito]

That Monokote wheel cover is amazing! It looks messy and wrinkly at first, but the result is spectacular.

Of course, I'm not even sure if a disc wheel is the best option all-round. Might an 88mm wheel (on the rear) be better?

For a while I had a set of Yoeleo wheels on my DF. 60mm front and 88mm rear. That rear wheel was just fine, but I couldn't get along with the 60mm front during descents, so I sold them. I did on occasion try the 60mm as a Vendetta rear wheel, and that was no problem. I wonder if a deep front wheel on the Vendetta will be as nervous as on the DF. It might not be, due to the added stability from steering with hands and feet. I just don't know, and I'd like to hear from somebody with experience. I'm currently thinking 50mm front and 88mm rear might be ideal.

For now I have only a 35mm front, and still kind of new on the V20 but as Larry wrote the front is going to get more twitchy as you increase the depth. I don't think I'll be putting anything deeper than 80mm on the front for the foreseeable future.

The general consensus for disc wheels is that they push riders around quite a bit if they weigh less than about 75kg. Wheels around 80-90mm seem to be the compromise.

As for the rear, I am sitting here contemplating a used HED Jet 9 for the V20 rear for $400. I couldn't ride to the shop yesterday because of rain and I had to work. Also, the wife might not appreciate it. I did buy a valve extender and a new tire yesterday though just in case haha.

I did come across this site that shows the fastest wheels, so it is a good starting point to narrow down the choices...

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews

 

[BJ686]

Another thought is to replace the stock handle bars with narrower ones. I added a set of gravel bars that are 44 mm at the hoods and 49 mm at the flared ends, which is a bit narrower than the stock bars, but still just wide enough for my legs to move freely in between (not brave enough to try Larry's stubby bar style!)

 

[Frito Bandito]

The bars look sleek and I love the Garmin camera you have on the front as well.

 

[ak-tux]

The uploader "Catrike & The Flaming Eyeball" uploaded a video of making a disc wheel using Monokote that I think is incredible. You can do this with a very light wheel, possibly with ceramic bearings, and get an incredible bang-for-your-buck wheel. My Campagnolo Scirocco (front) is 788g, and my Zonda is 673g, and I'll probably go with the Scirocco simply because it is brand new and I have a few sets of bearings for it, and the Zondas already have about 15,000 miles on them. There are a few other videos on Youtube showing home made disc wheels, but the Monokote one seems to be the least likely to fail and keeps the wheel the truest...
Edit: ... since the monokote is lighter than the material the other guys use for the cover, and it doesn't require a line of glue holding the two ends of the material together.

Similar idea by @markciccio here:

He shows that it adds about 2Kph while moving in the 40Kph range:

 

[Andrew Wilson]

I think air flow under the seat and up behind the shoulders is harmed by the bottle there. A fairing may smooth it a bit, but the empty space past the bottle would probably have turbulent flow. I don’t know how many watts are being lost here, though. I recall that Cruzbike’s wind tunnel testing showed the Race Case reduced drag, more so with a water bottle in it. This advantage depends on smooth air flow under the seat.

My thoughts too...probably not worth it. I do have Cruzbike's beind the seat dual bottle mount also. Probably a better solution it to just not store bottles under the seat and only behind when I care about speed.

 

[Frito Bandito]

Similar idea by @markciccio here:

He shows that it adds about 2Kph at in the 40Kph range:

I like that weave pattern even better. Today while buying my new rear wheel I came across a set of wheels that I think were 650s with a purple material used to make the disc. With that said, the 80mm Bullet purchase now frees up a 35mm Scirocco to use for a disc.

 

[Andrew Wilson]

JDisk was a company back in the late 80's I think that produced these. My first disk made with monokote was a copy of a Jdisk right after the USCF allowed covered rear wheels to be used in time trials as only teams or individuals with lots of $$$ could afford true disk wheels.

 

[Frito Bandito]

That purple does look like late 80's. I kinda like it though hahaha. You've been racing for quite a while though eh?