Is the Silvio 2.0 out of Beta Yet?

[Charles.Plager]

650B on a Silvio

Given the hubs needed, it's likely that you'll have to get wheels built yourself, so you ought to be able to get good 650B wheels.

Tire choices is a real issue; I'm not familiar with what choices there are in 650B tires. If the right choices are there, then it's a reasonable enough choice. If it's not there, then that's a good reason to not do it (crappy tires can make a really big difference).

Going with 650B tires on a Silvio is less dramatic in my opinion than going with a Roloff on a Vendetta. And I personally thought that was a perfectly reasonable thing to try. (I'm too much of a che@p b@$t@rd myself to do it.)

 

[Andrew 1973]

650B Tires

Hi Charles,

There are some high-quality options in 650B, but they are limited. I rode on a set of Fatty Rumpkins which suited their purpose. Most 650B tires are wide and have a tall profile as a result. I imagine these would be a tight fit on the Silvio, but I'm not an expert.

I too like the idea of a Rohloff hub or any quality IGH. After riding the Quest with SRAM Dual Drive, I can also appreciate its qualities. There was a guy here who talked about a Rohloff with a belt drive on a Silvio. I am not sure if he ever accomplished his goal, but I liked the idea.

 

[Charles.Plager]

The whole reason to go to

The whole reason to go to 650b is to go wider.

From Eric's post:

If the forks are the same, it looks like the inner dimension of the Vendetta 2.0 fork through the plane of the meat of the tire is about 40mm but all I have to measure it is a tape measure and my eyeballs - obviously not very accurate. Additionally there is a lot of curvature there too so be suspect of my measurement.

Given that the radius of the rim is smaller (584 compared to 622 for a 700c), this should allow a shorter, wider tire. It would be great if we could get a head-on shot of the Silvio v2.0 fork (without brake if possible). Ivan?? (I wouldn't bother taking the brake off, but if somebody's doing a new build...)

 

[3WHELZ]

Agile Development

While I find this thread interesting, it does point out Cruzbike's ability to perform continuous improvement through customer feedback, what we in the engineering and project management disciplines call agile development. Being a small company with limited production runs and a flexible production environment, allows for these incremental improvements. All of us who have purchased a Cruzbike and have offered feedback contribute to this process. It is then up to John and his team to decide whether to incorporate these potential improvements. My two cents.

 

[Eric Winn]

Charles Plager said:3) I

Charles Plager said:

3) I agree that the Silvio would be my choice for a "rando recumbent" too. I'm sure I can get a rear rack on there and I think the shocks will make a big difference in comfort. For me, if I could get a Silvio or a Vendetta, I'd very easily choose Silvio as I'll never be in the situation where I need the "pedal to the medal" speed I can get from the Vendetta (I think it would make a better RAAM bike as well). That doesn't mean I'm not going to "borrow" Eric's Vendetta for long periods when he's not looking (right after I have my legs surgically shortened. - Actually what is your inseam Eric?).

I've never done any formal brevets or other rando stuff but I have done some of those kinds of distances and I think a Silvio v2.0 makes a lot of sense as long as you can run some tires that will deal with whatever surface you need to ride on. ftthills seems to do fine on all kinds of terrain with his Vendetta with 28mm tires.

I've not really been fond of suspension on bikes until I test rode a Silvio v1.0 and found I really liked the way that suspension works. Everything is taut and doesn't seem to be squishy or bouncy.

My original intent was to buy a Silvio 1.5 but I liked the idea of the further recline and the boom design of the Vendetta so I decided to get one. Ending up with one of the first hydro-formed models turned out to be a big plus as I really, really like it.

However if both the Silvio v2.0 and Vendetta 2.0 had been available at the point I was making my purchase, I'm not so sure which I would have bought. Now that they are more similar I suspect I would have gone for the Silvio and am planning on getting a Silvio at some point - or maybe a Cruztrike or Cruzvelo if John happens to make such a thing.

Currently ***, to get to my usual riding areas, I ride my Vendetta with 23mm tires across a 1/2 mile stretch of dirt road that sometimes gets tweaked with minimal grading and a bit of gravel. I like it best when it is packed smooth as it is at times even better than some of the pavement around me - I've hit close to 40mph on it. But when it is freshly graded and strewn with some gravel I can still ride on it (more slowly) but it feels like I'm skittering around on the road as I ride - not fun. The Quest felt only marginally better with it's stock tires.

As far as carrying stuff - those bags that Ivan used or the Radical banana bags look like you could easily do heavily loaded touring or rando on either the Silvio or Vendetta if you wanted to. Mudguards/fenders on the current Vendetta might work for the back but there isn't much clearance on the fork or between the wheel and the lower leading edge of the frame tube which has a dimple to allow clearance.

@Charles - my inseam is about 28 inches BUT the Vendetta is highly adjustable so even with the amount I trimmed from the slider it could probably still be adjusted to fit you - or at least to the point you could ride it a bit. You're certainly welcome to give it a try if we are ever in the same vicinity together.

-Eric


*** (well not currently as it freaking snowed today and I've been too busy to ride much lately...)

 

[pRC]

Thanks to MTB guys, more 650b rim choices

Miscellaneous/ramblings on 650b

Yup, those mountain biker folks have now decided that, except for bigger riders, maybe the 29er (AKA 622) wheels are too big. But the 26 inch (559) is too small. So a few manufacturers started equipping racers with 650b (584) rims a couple of years ago, and it looks like maybe they will be The Next Big Thing for MTB riders. Lots of commercial bikes coming out with 650b wheels, multiple MTB tire choices, and the wheel manufacturers are putting 650b wheels in their lines.

The wheels I bought (good price, too) are Stans ZTR Crest model - 584x24mm wide rims with disc-mount hubs.

FYI, The 650b Rando tires are being driven by Compass Cycles, a dealer in Seattle; they also publish the sometimes wacky, definitely retro 'Bicycle Quarterly' magazine:
http://www.compasscycle.com/tires.html

And Rivendell Bikes:
http://www.rivbike.com/650B-Tires-s/111.htm

Other 650b tires are out there from Panasonic, Schwalbe, and Hutchinson.

As I understand it, the French origin of the 650b (and other 650 rims) allowed different tire widths to keep a similar outer diameter - from Sheldon Brown:

"If you are going from a very narrow 622 (700C) tire to a fairly wide 584 (650B), the difference may be minimal. For instance, a 19-622 (700 x 19C) tire would theoretically have exactly the same outside diameter as a 38-584 (650 x 38B)."

What diameter tire could I fit to a Silvio?
Based on the clearance measurement provided by iow -
"48mm internal width at the rear and 42mm at the front."

If we allow 3-4mm on each side for wheel flex and tire/rim variation that means
584x42 could barely fit the rear, but only 584x32 (of the standard sizes) up front.

(Maybe a 'narrow' 584x37 could be tested? It would be tight and might rub under braking or hard pedaling. Hrm. Mounted the Pacenti Pari-Moto 584x38 tires on the new rims tonight and measured them at 39mm side-to-side, too big for the Silvio fork. On the plus side, new wheels and tires total 640 grams lighter than the old Mavic Crossrides with Panasonic 559x38 tires!)

With 50/50 weight distribution, I think I'd prefer the same tire size front and rear and that would be 32mm.

/pRC

 

[counterpoint]

700cx32 will fit, then,

700cx32 will fit, then, pRC?
?I found these cross tires that I might want to mount for winter:

Tufo Dry Plus Tubular Cyclocross Tire
All Black - 700c x 32mm

?But have not ordered them yet (and I don't have my Silvio yet) to be sure they'll fit. Must say they look promising, not too knobby.
pRC, can you weigh in?
They're also on sale, not one of those insane prices north of $150 per tire.

 

[pRC]

Wish I knew...

700c at 32mm will also be bigger overall diameter - I think you could run into interference with the top of the fork or 'chain stay'.

650b wheels have a smaller diameter - 584mm v. 622mm for the 700c rims - so my estimates were based on the smaller diameter. Sorry.

/pRC

 

[John Tolhurst]

I think 28 is plenty big

I think 28 is plenty big enough when combined with the Silvio's excellent suspension.

 

[Charles.Plager]

I think 28 is plenty big

I think 28 is plenty big enough when combined with the Silvio's excellent suspension.

For asphalt, yes. For more dubious surfaces, I would love to see wider tires available.

Once disc brakes become ubiquitous, you'll be able to stop worrying about having to fit road bike caliper brakes and you'll be able to embrace your inner wider-tire child.

 

[John Tolhurst]

What kind of dubious surface

What kind of dubious surface would you be wanting to set Silvio up for?

 

[Charles.Plager]

What kind of dubious surface

What kind of dubious surface would you be wanting to set Silvio up for?

Packed lime stone trails. Dirt roads. When riding out and about, you don't always get to pick your surface.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Okay, but why do you suppose

Okay, but why do you suppose such occasional surfaces are beyond the ability a dual suspension Silvio with 700cx28 at 90psi?

 

[Charles.Plager]

Why I don't think 28 mm cuts it

Experience with road bikes and 28 mm tires as well as my Sofrider and wider tires.

As soon as the limestone becomes a little bit looser or on enough of an incline, having wider tires makes a big difference.

 

[John Tolhurst]

Yes, its when there are loose

Yes, its when there are loose stones on the surface that you then need a tire that allows the road to bite into it, a tire that accommodates those pebbles. What you need is a tire pressure around 40 or 50 psi, and that means you need a larger tire. If you want a bike to do that, then no, Silvio is not your choice. Silvio is not a bike for slogging around with 50psi in the tires. Quest or Sofrider is a better choice. Basically, I don't think you can have a fast bike on pavement that is also good there. You can have a slow bike for everything if you need. And that has really drawn out an important point. I wont' mark down the Silvio on tasks that no other fast road bike is able to accomplish either.

 

[Charles.Plager]

  Cyclocross and touring

Cyclocross and touring bikes both have clearance for much wider tires and you can find models that are no slouch.

I disagree that you can't have a bike that can do roads and light trails well. If the Silvio had room for wider tires, it would do just fine.

i realize this won't happen until you ditch caliper brakes and go disc only. I think road bikes will similarly evolve...

 

[Ian Smith]

Cyclocross

Sorry Charles, having ridden both DF and bent on loose surfaces similar to cyclocross I'd be on a DF any day. On a harder, more confident surface, I'd be bent. It is really here that the MTB and other DF bikes really come into their own due to the rider being able to move almost independently from the bike. The Silvio is really designed to be a road bike and nothing less. Treat it as a road bike and you'll be ok. Treat it as an off road monster and you'll come unstuck. You don't see too many Cervelo or Pinnarello road bikes hooning around the Cyclocross tracks. Hybrids and flat bar commuters do that job far more admirably. Plus they're a bucket load cheaper to replace.

 

[super slim]

My Sivio with 700*28 slicks

My Sivio with 700*28 slicks is OK on corrugated gravel at 85 psi (min. pressure) as long as the tyre reaches a hard base! Otherwise I go down like a sack of Potatoes!!!

SS

 

[MrSteve]

Slicks and Stones

My Sofrider's wheels are shod with slicks.

The only problem I have when riding on gravel roads is that the tyres
tend to get cut. Man used chipped stones for generations, so this ought to
be no surprise.

Riding safely on loose surfaces is just a matter of practice.
Your Silvio's tyres are only a little narrower than my slicks
and our weight distribution is closely matched.

To make it easier on yourself when you ride on gravel,
bleed a few pounds of pressure out of your tyres and
sit taller in the saddle, if you can.
Also, faster is easier... believe it or not.

-Steve

 

[John Tolhurst]

I guess I would ask what

I guess I would ask what percent of riding turns out on these stony surfaces? 1km in 1000? 31km in 100? Does this happen every month?

Are you really better off limiting the performance of the bike and making it always harder to push, just so a tiny percent of riding becomes a little easier?

A story. I had a conversion bike some years ago and with a group of bents we headed into a limestone hilly trail. Now some would review all the bents in the group and say that my FWD was the least appropriate because it wouldn't get up the hills. What actually happened was the dual suspension, 50-50 weight distribution and great power down qualities mean I just left them all eating dust. It was really no contest. And that steep pinch? I just walked up it. Sat the bike down and waited for the pack to arrive.

In a like vein, some say that walking up part a of a hill means you don't have sufficient gearing. I say I'm not going to suffer the added complexity and weight because walking the bike up that really tight bit once in a while is okay. Its not a disgrace.

So to my mind, you should focus your bike on 99% of conditions, not 100%. You'll get there earlier and fresher, will save money and will enjoy the 99% without compromise.