Many Faces of the Red Bike

[Doug Burton]

Here's a few of my 700c kit bike...

Original - too tall with steel kit and triple crank... It rode great if you didn't have to balance it at a stop...

With tweeners, that look better than they work...

And compared with Silvio geomerty, which made me re-engineer the whole thing... :lol:

 

[John Tolhurst]

The only thing wrong with this bike is its not ridden anywhere often enough!!!

Doug, how do you find the solid front with the skinny 700s, any tramp or kick?

 

[Mark B]

That is a nice looking bike. I sure wouldn't mind taking that one around the block.

John, what do you mean by "tramp" and "kick"? I'm not familiar with those terms in the context of cycling .

Mark

 

[MrSteve]

johntolhurst wrote: The only thing wrong with this bike is its not ridden anywhere often enough!!!

Doug, how do you find the solid front with the skinny 700s, any tramp or kick?

I associate the terms, 'tramp' and, 'kick' with suspension.
for example, high-weight unsuspended masses, like the rear wheels of the old live-axle rear-wheel drive cars
(especially when asked to transmit high horsepower to uneven pavement)
-are subject to tramp.
The, "Red Bike" looks like it has no suspension!
And so, could you elaborate please?

 

[John Tolhurst]

Yes, tramp and kick are qualities of suspension that is not working adequately and I think particularly common on vehicles with no suspension at all, as they bounce and skip over every ripple on the road.

Its a while since I road a nonsuspended cruzbike, but what I remember is that if the front hops a little over some kind of bump or ripple in the pavement when you are powering it will spin and this is not pleasant because it totally throws off your cadence.

 

[MrSteve]

Thank you, John.

...sort of like the upset in cadence you get when the drive wheel slips on slick/damp/sandy
spots on steep uphill grades.

...or the weird skating/hopping behaviour that hardtail motorcycles exhibit, powering out
of turns.
(I was a test rider, back in the '80s).

I can imagine riding a rigid, unsuspended Cruzbike: I'm so thankful for the suspension
on my Sofrider.

With that in mind, I too wonder:
How well does a rigid, 'hardtail' (hardnose?) 700c cruzebike conversion bicycle handle on uneven surfaces?!
(My guess is like a stiff-framed DF road bike handles, but the skittish driven wheel is now the front wheel, rather than the rear.)

 

[Mark B]

I believe wheel hop is the word the layman would look for. I understand what you're saying, but can't imagine it in practice, not on a bicycle. John says he recalls it happening, so I have to believe. After all, I drank the Kool-Aid :shock: :lol: :lol:

Mark

 

[Doug Burton]

johntolhurst wrote: The only thing wrong with this bike is its not ridden anywhere often enough!!!

Doug, how do you find the solid front with the skinny 700s, any tramp or kick?

Very True. I love this bike.

I used 700x28c tires on this bike, it was designed to do long distance charity rides well. Think of it as a bike equivalent of Burt Rutan's "Voyager", the first plane to circumnavigate the world without stopping or refuelling. It was designed to take my meager power output and poor VO2 conversion efficiency and allow me to complete a 150-mile ride in 2 days without soreness or injury.

This was my 6th MS150, and I never felt better and never had a more comfortable ride.

This bike has no suspension. It has a pretty generous amoutn of seat padding, and the seat is set up to apply most of my weight across my back. This combination makes it very comfortable for a long time, perhaps at the cost of peak output due to an open riding position. It climbs like a Cruzbike.

I find no tramp from the front end and no kick over poor surfaces. This may be due to the 28mm tires.

I suspect the Silvio can achieve equal or superior ride characteristics with 23mm tires due to the suspension.

The Silvio is an F16 to the red bike's Voyager, but I am anxious to see how the Silvio fares on the MS150, and I'm sure it will be awesome.

Be well,

Doug

 

[Rick Harker]

Hi Doug,

Can you elaborate on the different characteristics the bars give.

Rick.

 

[Doug Burton]

Hi Rick,

These photos show the bike as it is now.

The bars I settled on are Dimension alloy riser bars, 660mm wide, 95mm rise, 40 degree sweep. A close approximation to the bar provided on the Sofrider.

The tweener bars caused me a lot of stress in my shoulders, and the bar/hand angle that seems to work so well for stickbike highracers didn't work well at all for bars that had to transmit some torque. Also, they were a bit flexy.

I found that my precision steering control movements could be provided in part by my wrists with the dimension bars, so my bike control improved. And my arms and shoulders are very comfortable on long rides with the 40 degree sweep adjusted such that my wrist is neutral:

You can also see how aerodynamic my body shape is. Also, the Paul's Thumbies work exceptionally well with these bars.

Be well,

Doug

 

[MrSteve]

Your red bike is awesome, Doug!

Your photos, video, the bike itself were instrumental in my decision go cuzebiking.

Just so you get my point:
Awesome bike; beautiful job.

-Steve

 

[Mark B]

yakmurph wrote: Your photos, video, the bike itself were instrumental in my decision go cuzebiking.

Cuzebiking.... Steve?.... You into some kind of new sport we're not aware of? :lol: :lol:

Seriously....+1, me too, Doug sold me.

Mark

 

[Rick Harker]

Hi Doug,
With you on the bike I can see the comfort factor. The Pics are perfect descriptors.
I see what you mean with your hand position.
How do you find the seat with the type of cushion you're using?
Also do you find your gearing adequate with a double chain ring?

Regards,

Rick.

 

[Doug Burton]

Thanks very much for the comments, gentlemen...

The gearing works very well. in the 34/32 combo, I've not encountered a hil that I couldn't navigate. These bikes don't need as low a granny gear as many others due to the potential for arm input and the recruitment of additional muscle groups.

The seat is quiite comfortable for very long rides. There is some cost in peak power output due to the open riding position, and the degree of recline makes it hard to swivel your head enough for citybike use. The Kit/Sofrider?Freerider seat addresses those issues in its design.

But there's not another one like it... and I've had a ball developing it.

Be well,

Doug

 

[Rick Harker]

Hi Doug,
I was just going through the photos of your red bike and trying to get some sanity with bars and stems.
I noticed with yours that you have changed stems along with the bars and you have an extension on the riser (hope thats right).
How close do your knees come to the bars?

Regards,

Rick.

 

[Doug Burton]

Hi Rick,

I put a lot of time into working out the handlebar and stem arrangement on the kit bikes. The Sofrider is pretty well optimized out of the box. My Sofrider is different because it was one of the original Interbike prototypes and had a bar that was slightly too short for the controls to fit on properly, so I replaced the handlebar with the closest thing I could find to the Sofrider part at the time.

The stem that I used on the riser is a 1-1/8" RANS zero-reach stem intended for a crank-forward bike. This moves the bars back about 50mm and allows me to keep the grips close to inline with the steering axis, as you can see in the photo above.

When I have everything right, my knees just miss the cable barrels on the shifters (say, consistent 1/2" clearance). This is one of the advantages of the Silvio layout, where nice. clean brifters are used and the cabling stays clear of the knees altogether.

If I am remembering correctly, you have a Sofrider and are seeing some knee interference. One thing you can do is raise the stem to where the riser tube (I like that term for the part) is about halfway into the stem. This should be adequate to properly retain the stem on the riser, and will give you a little more clearance; this is what I did on the V2 I sent to Bryan Ball for review.

If this doesn't serve, you can get the RANS part here:

http://www.shoprans.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BPHB0049

Another possibility is something like the DNA Saucer:

http://www.billys.co.uk/english/group.php?prod=asdn-saucer&PHPSESSID=3jsjqvmt3v4vh8840a9hdt8225

I don't know what's easily available in Australia...

When you install a stem like these, the existing stemcap simply installs in the end of the riser tube and you adjust the bearing tension prior to installing the stem, which then slips over the top.

Have fun,

Doug

 

[Rick Harker]

Thanks Doug,

Unfortunately for "us" in Australia is the supply of products for bikes such as recumbents. its often better to search U.S. sites and pay the postage premium.
I was thinking of trying a different bar stem with a 35 degree rise which might just do.

One other thing I just noticed today is your little seat bag. Is it off the shelf or a "home brew".

Regards,

Rick.

 

[Doug Burton]

Hi Rick,

The seat bag was an REI small back pack I picked up on sale on a business trip to Denver. I removed the straps and added a velcro flap to attach to the seat back on the hardshell seat. It holds a hydration reservior, tools and spare tubes for long rides. It works ok, but for similar money and less effort I could have just bought a Fastback hydration pack.

Be well,

Doug

 

[Rick Harker]

Hi Doug,

I like the little bag and the funny thing is it looks right at home as I hadn't noticed it until yesterday when I was getting more detail of your bars. I also noticed the bars in this photo too. You must be the R & D team manager.
By the way I have increased the height on my bar stem approx. 1 in. and gives me just a good enough clearance. I tried the stem in reverse but could not steer the bike at slow speed and cramped me up too much. I looked at your dimension bars and they look wider across the centre section giving more room for knees.
I tend to get clumsy when turning and let my knees go outward for some reason and they hit the brake levers. Still need to trust and relax...

One more thing... (again, sorry), How is the open cell foam on your seat from a comfort and breathability point of view.

Regards,

Rick.

 

[Mark B]

Rick Harker wrote: Hi Doug,

I like the little bag and the funny thing is it looks right at home as I hadn't noticed it until yesterday when I was getting more detail of your bars. I also noticed the bars in this photo too. You must be the R & D team manager.

Mmmm, I think he's an insufferable tinkerer.. :lol:

Mark

 

[Rick Harker]

Oh! Yeah!...
I know what that's like.
Yesterday was my day off and the weather was... well, 130 k/h winds and flying trees. Not good for riding.
Instead I tried 20 inch wheels on my Sofrider. Weird but rode quite well although limited with gearing. Then tried it with 700c wheels. Really slick looking but no brakes, again was only riding it in the yard due to weather.
Then before boredom set in again I trued the wheels to within .003 inches (best I could do). Re-aligned the deraileur to the chain and then... Still couldn't go for a ride. Bummer!
Ah! Well... More tinkering...
I think I should get a Silvio.

Rick.