Reading the tea leaves II
- Thread starter John Tolhurst
- Start date
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
The missing link.....
Well now; that turbo Quest would be a step in the direction of that missing link in the the product line we discussed earlier. I had been thinking the 1.5 need to come back; but an alternative configuration for the quest is a far more intelligent suggestion; especially in the 135mm layup.
Sort of begs the question: Can the Silvio Hydro Frame be the foundation for all 1 to 3 high end race class bikes; and can the quest hydro frame be the basis of 1 to 3 towny frames. The intersection of the two production lines would be touring. Either tour with the top end of the Quest or the low end of the Silvio depending on if you are camping or credit card touring.
I just bought that used Quest 451 version2 for my Dad; and I will admit that you have 100% stopped me dead in my thinking. Too me that means you are on to something. (you need to give us details in the Q Forum if they don't exisit or remind us if they do).
Well now; that turbo Quest would be a step in the direction of that missing link in the the product line we discussed earlier. I had been thinking the 1.5 need to come back; but an alternative configuration for the quest is a far more intelligent suggestion; especially in the 135mm layup.
Sort of begs the question: Can the Silvio Hydro Frame be the foundation for all 1 to 3 high end race class bikes; and can the quest hydro frame be the basis of 1 to 3 towny frames. The intersection of the two production lines would be touring. Either tour with the top end of the Quest or the low end of the Silvio depending on if you are camping or credit card touring.
I just bought that used Quest 451 version2 for my Dad; and I will admit that you have 100% stopped me dead in my thinking. Too me that means you are on to something. (you need to give us details in the Q Forum if they don't exisit or remind us if they do).
Defense of the Quest (V3) simplicity and functionality
Much opinion follows.
I don't get the fascination with drop bars on a recumbent. Drop bars make sense on a DF because they allow the rider to lean further forward to get more aerodynamic. But on a recumbent there is no such areo advantage.
I think riders coming from a DF road-bike background want drop bars because that allows them to use high-end road-bike components they're use to. But I don't think that's the market for the Quest.
From an end-user point of view the internal hub on the current-model Quest is both simple and functional. Shifting's smooth and the ability to shift down when stopped is very valuable on a MBB. And the hand position with the original bars is, IMO, very comfortable.
While the rolling resistance of a 700c tire might be very slightly lower than a 26" tire running at the same pressure, it's irrelevant on a bike designed for recreation and exercise.
Ease of Use and reliability are what the majority of Quest customer's are going to want.
And if you want to increase a Quest's performance, stiffening the energy-sucking handlebar-on-a-stick arrangement is where the biggest benefit lies.
So, all that said, Cruzbike could make this "missing link" but I'm not sure how big the market would be. Road-bike converts would opt for a Silvio as only that's going to be faster than their current ride. And "grandpas" (i.e. casual 40+ bikers wanting a bike for recreation and exercise) are going to opt for a simpler bike, the current Quest. Ideally with more rec-friendly tires.
Maybe it'd appeal to older road-bike riders wanting and willing to trade some performance for comfort. Components they're used too in a more comfortable form factor. Maybe that is a significant enough market. I don't know.
Rich
P.S. I've never tried drop bars on a recumbent, so at minimum I lack personal experience with the setup.
Much opinion follows.
I don't get the fascination with drop bars on a recumbent. Drop bars make sense on a DF because they allow the rider to lean further forward to get more aerodynamic. But on a recumbent there is no such areo advantage.
I think riders coming from a DF road-bike background want drop bars because that allows them to use high-end road-bike components they're use to. But I don't think that's the market for the Quest.
From an end-user point of view the internal hub on the current-model Quest is both simple and functional. Shifting's smooth and the ability to shift down when stopped is very valuable on a MBB. And the hand position with the original bars is, IMO, very comfortable.
While the rolling resistance of a 700c tire might be very slightly lower than a 26" tire running at the same pressure, it's irrelevant on a bike designed for recreation and exercise.
Ease of Use and reliability are what the majority of Quest customer's are going to want.
And if you want to increase a Quest's performance, stiffening the energy-sucking handlebar-on-a-stick arrangement is where the biggest benefit lies.
So, all that said, Cruzbike could make this "missing link" but I'm not sure how big the market would be. Road-bike converts would opt for a Silvio as only that's going to be faster than their current ride. And "grandpas" (i.e. casual 40+ bikers wanting a bike for recreation and exercise) are going to opt for a simpler bike, the current Quest. Ideally with more rec-friendly tires.
Maybe it'd appeal to older road-bike riders wanting and willing to trade some performance for comfort. Components they're used too in a more comfortable form factor. Maybe that is a significant enough market. I don't know.
Rich
P.S. I've never tried drop bars on a recumbent, so at minimum I lack personal experience with the setup.
1happyreader
zen/child method
for the lack of a nail
errrrr nevermind , I should have read the post more carefully.
errrrr nevermind , I should have read the post more carefully.
scabinetguy
Well-Known Member
increase a Quest's performance
I have nothing against the Quest as it is out of the box. The shifting is great and it's the most comfortable bike I've ever been on. The reasons for my changes are evident at speeds above 18 mph. Above 18 mph the amount of work to maintain speed greatly increases on the 26" wheels. As for the drop bars, half of the power generated on a Cruzbike comes from upper body pull on the handle bars, they work very well, as they do on the Vendetta. I'm what you would call a Cruzbikeaholic ( hello my name is Steve ) , I have a Vendetta 1.5, Silvio 1.5 and 2.0 and a Quest. I know the differences because I ride them, a lot.
I have nothing against the Quest as it is out of the box. The shifting is great and it's the most comfortable bike I've ever been on. The reasons for my changes are evident at speeds above 18 mph. Above 18 mph the amount of work to maintain speed greatly increases on the 26" wheels. As for the drop bars, half of the power generated on a Cruzbike comes from upper body pull on the handle bars, they work very well, as they do on the Vendetta. I'm what you would call a Cruzbikeaholic ( hello my name is Steve ) , I have a Vendetta 1.5, Silvio 1.5 and 2.0 and a Quest. I know the differences because I ride them, a lot.
Kim Tolhurst
Well-Known Member
work out bike.
Work out bike, if you want.
Work out bike, if you want.
Rampa
Guru
I think you need the bars "on a post"....
if your seat angle is "Questish". Optimally, I believe the slider boom must attach to the steerer right at the top of the headset. If it were connected up higher for the clearance to work with the more upright seat, then you would be flexing the steerer with every pedal stroke. Having the bars on the quest at the end of a Silvio type boom in it's optimal strength position, would put the bars much to low and much to far back.
Consequently, I have found that pulling on the bars on almost any bike results in more power. All your really doing is holding yourself against the pedals. You used to be able to get a little strap and harness thing that would go around your waist and attach to a diamond frame so that you would have something to anchor your body for pushing harder on the pedals.
That Turbo Quest is rather pretty!
if your seat angle is "Questish". Optimally, I believe the slider boom must attach to the steerer right at the top of the headset. If it were connected up higher for the clearance to work with the more upright seat, then you would be flexing the steerer with every pedal stroke. Having the bars on the quest at the end of a Silvio type boom in it's optimal strength position, would put the bars much to low and much to far back.
Consequently, I have found that pulling on the bars on almost any bike results in more power. All your really doing is holding yourself against the pedals. You used to be able to get a little strap and harness thing that would go around your waist and attach to a diamond frame so that you would have something to anchor your body for pushing harder on the pedals.
That Turbo Quest is rather pretty!
super slim
Zen MBB Master
This is a less radical Quest
This is a less radical Quest with Salsa Woodchip drop bars, and Shim Tiagra triple brifers, which has allowed me to lower the stem 50 mm.
It still has 26" wheels and TPR Sprye brakes, 155 mm cranks 44,34,22, and 11 to 32 cluster.
Its a lot more comfortable and when pulling as more in line to the BB, and there are more hand positions than the standard bars.
The main reason for the modifications was to make it as close to a Disk braked Silvio V1.0 as possible, to see which I would take to Canada and USA in 2013 for 4 months of riding, on van supported tours.
The Silvio won due to the 40 mm Air bag front suspension and the 700 C fast wheels and tyres.
Super Slim
This is a less radical Quest with Salsa Woodchip drop bars, and Shim Tiagra triple brifers, which has allowed me to lower the stem 50 mm.
It still has 26" wheels and TPR Sprye brakes, 155 mm cranks 44,34,22, and 11 to 32 cluster.
Its a lot more comfortable and when pulling as more in line to the BB, and there are more hand positions than the standard bars.
The main reason for the modifications was to make it as close to a Disk braked Silvio V1.0 as possible, to see which I would take to Canada and USA in 2013 for 4 months of riding, on van supported tours.
The Silvio won due to the 40 mm Air bag front suspension and the 700 C fast wheels and tyres.
Super Slim
It is very easy for all of us
It is very easy for all of us here (and long time recumbent riders in general) to come up with a ton of variations on a theme, but the reality is that for any recumbent to hit mainstream it has to be in an arrangement that requires little to no tinkering and be delivered that way.
The recumbent world has always been full of tinkerers, innovators, and early adopter types, but that is not the mainstream customer - especially people coming from the world of DF's or non-cyclists. Mainstream customers are used to getting the setup they need handed to them. Below a certain price point they expect bikes to come off the rack and into the trunk. Tinkering and feeling like a beta tester and trying to put square pegs in round holes is overwhelming and a turn off to them. The average bike customer rarely reacts well to ideas like they will have to change out handlebars and shifters for the sake of experimentation.
Many customers want to be shown what works well for their given riding needs - the key is to have those categories accurately defined, and once established able to demonstrate how each bike fits those categories without much extra effort from the customer. If extra is required, mainstream customers want off-the-shelf solutions that go on easy, work the first time, and look like and are intended for that bike for that purpose. Mainstream customers will also stay on the fence until they see some consistency in the product. If it changes radically every 8 months they will never buy because they feel that their hard earned money is then wasted. Many on this forum enjoy seeing changes and love their older designs but that is part of the early adopter ethos that an average customer does not have.
When a customer asks a question about a recumbent, such as "can I put fenders on it?" or "does it have a bag or rack that fits?" or "is it easy to carry water?" or that sort of thing, the answer has to be "that is totally possible, let me show you how easy it is." That or else interest wanes extremely quickly for everyone EXCEPT the tinkerers, innovators, and early adopters.
As an example, Catrike hit the jackpot with their side bags that go on their trikes - they are a hot item that people pay good money for - because they fit like they belong to the trike. I have never once had a "mainstream type" Catrike customer want to spend less money on a bag not intended for that trike so they could cable tie/McGiver/hose clamp it on.
If I ride my Silvio with a bag attached to the headrest that is intended to go under the seat of a DF, group 1 will say "Oh that's cool how you got that bag to mount there." but the mainstream group will say "why did you have to use that bag intended for the underside of a DF?" If a guy buying a nice Acura wants seat covers - he wants the Acura seat covers, not ones for a Ford that he has to re-sew.
Recumbents have changed over the years. Newer ones come in for work and are often outfitted with "made for that purpose" accessories, and older recumbents often come in with a hodge-podge of clamped on racks, etc. As someone who has ridden recumbents for many years and worked as a mechanic and sales - they are all becoming more "mainstream" as far as perception goes. In 2005 when I would ride my recumbent I would get a lot of long stares and "did you build that yourself?" Today the reaction is much more "nice recumbent" or "I have been thinking of trying a recumbent here soon." Part of that change in attitude - in my humble opinion - is that manufacturers have made great effort to make their bikes easy to outfit for their customers riding purpose. They look good outfitted and accessorized properly and people put stock in things that look good and look consistent.
For the companies that hang in there and deliver a great product - that has a unique offering that is properly categorized and easily accessorized and that nobody else can match - the future will be very bright.
It is very easy for all of us here (and long time recumbent riders in general) to come up with a ton of variations on a theme, but the reality is that for any recumbent to hit mainstream it has to be in an arrangement that requires little to no tinkering and be delivered that way.
The recumbent world has always been full of tinkerers, innovators, and early adopter types, but that is not the mainstream customer - especially people coming from the world of DF's or non-cyclists. Mainstream customers are used to getting the setup they need handed to them. Below a certain price point they expect bikes to come off the rack and into the trunk. Tinkering and feeling like a beta tester and trying to put square pegs in round holes is overwhelming and a turn off to them. The average bike customer rarely reacts well to ideas like they will have to change out handlebars and shifters for the sake of experimentation.
Many customers want to be shown what works well for their given riding needs - the key is to have those categories accurately defined, and once established able to demonstrate how each bike fits those categories without much extra effort from the customer. If extra is required, mainstream customers want off-the-shelf solutions that go on easy, work the first time, and look like and are intended for that bike for that purpose. Mainstream customers will also stay on the fence until they see some consistency in the product. If it changes radically every 8 months they will never buy because they feel that their hard earned money is then wasted. Many on this forum enjoy seeing changes and love their older designs but that is part of the early adopter ethos that an average customer does not have.
When a customer asks a question about a recumbent, such as "can I put fenders on it?" or "does it have a bag or rack that fits?" or "is it easy to carry water?" or that sort of thing, the answer has to be "that is totally possible, let me show you how easy it is." That or else interest wanes extremely quickly for everyone EXCEPT the tinkerers, innovators, and early adopters.
As an example, Catrike hit the jackpot with their side bags that go on their trikes - they are a hot item that people pay good money for - because they fit like they belong to the trike. I have never once had a "mainstream type" Catrike customer want to spend less money on a bag not intended for that trike so they could cable tie/McGiver/hose clamp it on.
If I ride my Silvio with a bag attached to the headrest that is intended to go under the seat of a DF, group 1 will say "Oh that's cool how you got that bag to mount there." but the mainstream group will say "why did you have to use that bag intended for the underside of a DF?" If a guy buying a nice Acura wants seat covers - he wants the Acura seat covers, not ones for a Ford that he has to re-sew.
Recumbents have changed over the years. Newer ones come in for work and are often outfitted with "made for that purpose" accessories, and older recumbents often come in with a hodge-podge of clamped on racks, etc. As someone who has ridden recumbents for many years and worked as a mechanic and sales - they are all becoming more "mainstream" as far as perception goes. In 2005 when I would ride my recumbent I would get a lot of long stares and "did you build that yourself?" Today the reaction is much more "nice recumbent" or "I have been thinking of trying a recumbent here soon." Part of that change in attitude - in my humble opinion - is that manufacturers have made great effort to make their bikes easy to outfit for their customers riding purpose. They look good outfitted and accessorized properly and people put stock in things that look good and look consistent.
For the companies that hang in there and deliver a great product - that has a unique offering that is properly categorized and easily accessorized and that nobody else can match - the future will be very bright.
Charles.Plager
Recumbent Quant
For the short term at least,
For the short term at least, this is why knowledgeable dealers are so important to Cruzbike. They can make sure the customer gets the nicely finished bike that some of them want.
Here's another crappy comparison story. Microsoft windows isn't the OS on most computers because it's the best OS. It's there because it had the right marketing at the right time. Cruzbike popping out the right bikes isn't sufficient. It needs the right support (knowledgeable dealers and somewhat rabid customer base) as well. This isn't a reflection of any failing on Cruzbike's part, but rather the reality of being a small business.
Of course, fortunate if not unlikely (and often unplannable) marketing events help to (e. g. Maria's RAAM victory).
For the short term at least, this is why knowledgeable dealers are so important to Cruzbike. They can make sure the customer gets the nicely finished bike that some of them want.
Here's another crappy comparison story. Microsoft windows isn't the OS on most computers because it's the best OS. It's there because it had the right marketing at the right time. Cruzbike popping out the right bikes isn't sufficient. It needs the right support (knowledgeable dealers and somewhat rabid customer base) as well. This isn't a reflection of any failing on Cruzbike's part, but rather the reality of being a small business.
Of course, fortunate if not unlikely (and often unplannable) marketing events help to (e. g. Maria's RAAM victory).
Ivan
Guru
That is a good point on
That is a good point on accessories. Perhaps Cruzbike can list some off the shelf accessories that require little or no modification. For example my large Topeak saddle bag fits BETTER on my Silvio than it would on a DF (cos it's very big under a saddle but perfect under the Silvio headrest) and looks good doing so. All that is required is a length of double-sided Velcro.
Another accessory that that really should be included is somewhere to mount a light above the BB. Several of us have made extensions, cut dowels etc.
I know Cruzbike doesn't want to make accessories but at least point to existing accessories that work with Cruzbikes would help the mainstream customer. I like fiddling but most people don't.
That is a good point on accessories. Perhaps Cruzbike can list some off the shelf accessories that require little or no modification. For example my large Topeak saddle bag fits BETTER on my Silvio than it would on a DF (cos it's very big under a saddle but perfect under the Silvio headrest) and looks good doing so. All that is required is a length of double-sided Velcro.
Another accessory that that really should be included is somewhere to mount a light above the BB. Several of us have made extensions, cut dowels etc.
I know Cruzbike doesn't want to make accessories but at least point to existing accessories that work with Cruzbikes would help the mainstream customer. I like fiddling but most people don't.
Ways Cruzbike could capitalize on rabid fanbase
Ways Cruzbike could capitalize on rabid fanbase (veering off topic...)
First, create a wiki for each bike and allow the known/common forum posters to manage it. The forum is great, but the same questions come up over and over again, and sometimes it's hard to find the answers by searching. A wiki would put all the common questions/answers on one page. A FAQ for each bike generated by the community; accessories could be one of the categories.
Second, offer some type of reward system for bringing in new customers. Since the bikes aren't in shops, existing customers could be used as a pseudo-salesforce. They're doing that with the "find a local / cruzbike army", but there's not much incentive. I'd be more inclined to spend an hour with someone teaching them to ride a MBB if there were something in it for me. Like $50 or something. Or $50 off a future Cruzbike... Let's see. 3500/50....
Ways Cruzbike could capitalize on rabid fanbase (veering off topic...)
First, create a wiki for each bike and allow the known/common forum posters to manage it. The forum is great, but the same questions come up over and over again, and sometimes it's hard to find the answers by searching. A wiki would put all the common questions/answers on one page. A FAQ for each bike generated by the community; accessories could be one of the categories.
Second, offer some type of reward system for bringing in new customers. Since the bikes aren't in shops, existing customers could be used as a pseudo-salesforce. They're doing that with the "find a local / cruzbike army", but there's not much incentive. I'd be more inclined to spend an hour with someone teaching them to ride a MBB if there were something in it for me. Like $50 or something. Or $50 off a future Cruzbike... Let's see. 3500/50....
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Bridging the Gaps
Coming back to Rich's first reaction to the Turbo Quest. That is certain a valid seasoned recumbent rider's reaction to dropbars in general.
If we jump back to post #30; I set down a caveat for my part of the discussion. "Let's assume the goal is to sell to the those people who do not yet have a predisposition to buy a recumbent." I do believe this is the goal John and company are chasing. So my comments about the Steve's Turbo custom were coming from that primary frame of reference. Then Robert nailed it in his summary and added in the great comments about accessories.
So working back to why Steve's turbo go my attention.... It simply looks good and had good lines. Frankly I'd never considered you could do that with a Quest frame, I suspect others had a similar reaction. In several ways it's more it eye catching than the Silvio 1.5 was in-spite of the similar characteristics. (or perhaps the photo was take JUST right); Since the Q3 frame is still be produced, it has the potential to fill the void between the Silvio and the Quest as currently offered.
Anyone working in a LBS can reaffirm that there needs to be a product that each potential customer can identify with when they look at it in the show room or on the website. That identifiable product is the door way to the product line as a whole. Once they are engaged with the product line they can work their way up and down the line through the price / performance options. You have about 20 seconds to make that first attention; miss you chance it usually doesn't come again.
The Silvio with drops is currently that doorway bike. I would argue that the current drops give it an odd look that is going to cause cognitive dissidence in the head of the potential buyer and they might not be drawn to the bike. But that is another topic.
The Silvio is going to be like that race bike that a lot people see in the store, but don't buy. It's too expensive with the race GroupSets. They go ooooh cool; now do you have something I can afford. While the Silvio is the ohhh cool bike the Vendetta is in the corner as the OMG bike; it needs to be there, but has a small audience. It's existence gives the customer confidence in the products.
Then customer then looks down to the next bike in the line; the budget "race" bike. Cruzbike doesn't have that bike. But perhaps a 700c/26 Quest with a low end groupset can be that machine. Having the budget racer; affirms for the customer that the product line is well thought out and that there is a bike for everyone. Only a small percentage of consumers understand that the GroupSet and Tires are what are used to lower the prices as you step down the line of bikes. The Quest also has the advantage of having a seat angle that isn't going to scare people when they look at it.
After the budget racer, they look down the line further and see the cruiser configured Quest with Straight bars. This parallels what you see in the DF ranks. At this point the customer can see ok "If I go below this point of price; I leave the race bike and get into the leisure bikes" the DF market has conditioned them to see geometry changes when that happens. Tires get fatter; handle bars go straight. Brifters are replaced with Trigger shifters and Twist shifters etc. If makes sense to them. Without that bridging bike in the middle that can be configured as either Road/Race or Leisure/Cruise/commute; the line doesn't hang together.
Some customer will enter into the product line at the bottom and move up the bike until they get to one they like and can afford, others will come in at the top and move down. The product line presented needs to facilitate their movement smoothly through the spectrum; and each jump needs to be logically small and obvious.
So my contention is that the new seat angle on the Silvio 2.x was needed on the high end; but that it has left a gap in the product line. Steve's turbo quest shows that rather nicely and it presents some intriguing marketing and sales ideas.
In Bizarro world where Cruzbikes are sold in every bike store your standard display would be.
Qty 1 - Vendetta 2.x with Bullhorns and Sick high end Parts and sells for $8-9k (on a podium in the store)
Qty 2 - Vendetta 2.x with Drops and in two different price configurations $5k and $6k
Qty 1 - Silvio 2.x with Bullhorns and high end groupo $6k
Qty 3 - Silvio 2.x with drops configured ranging from $3.5k - $4.5k
Qty 5 - Quest 3.x with dropbars and 700c and 26" wheels; configured from $2k-$3.5k
Qty 4 - Quest 3.x with Straight bars and 26" wheels; configured from $1.5k - $2k
Qty 5 - Softriders with Drops and 26" wheel configured from $1k-2k
Qty 5 - Softriders with stragiht bars configured from $600-$1k
This still leaves pricing gaps in the $450-$600 range that you really have to have; but my Bizarro skills only go so far.
Now you can't do that in the Bike stores; it's not going to happen there obviously isn't the demand to drive those inventories. But that's basically how they attack the DF. On the web on the other hand you can have those configurations. While Cruzbike can't yet supply all the bikes with full groupsets in 50 combinations; they can PRESENT the various configuration as examples; that allows customers to see the bikes to their potential and either order and configure them or get a trusted reseller to assemble configuration "XX" with said reseller have an opportunity to inject their twists and recommendation based on current parts and pricing.
So if you can have a basis of:
Vendetta 2.x Bullhorn
Vendetta 2.x Drops
Silvio 2.x Bullhorn
Silvio 2.x Drops
Quest 3.x Drops + 700 or 26
Softrider Drops + 26
Quest 3.x 26" + straight bar
Quest 3.x 541 + straight bar
Softrider Straight bar
Softrider Big tire
Softrider Kid sized.
Then you start to have a clean incremental product line.
The questions that leaves is how to you control costs and make the bikes affordable while remaining viable as a business?
(1) reuse base parts as much as possible.
(1)(a) previous discussions about merging Silvio/Vendetta main body tube
(1)(b) previous discussions about basing all the middle tier bikes on the quest frame
(2) Is having the software rider cost effective
(2)(a) would be more economical to derive low end models from quest parts
(2)(b) re-imagine the softrider as an Hrydo S tube specially for a series of bikes on the low end.
Coming back to Rich's first reaction to the Turbo Quest. That is certain a valid seasoned recumbent rider's reaction to dropbars in general.
If we jump back to post #30; I set down a caveat for my part of the discussion. "Let's assume the goal is to sell to the those people who do not yet have a predisposition to buy a recumbent." I do believe this is the goal John and company are chasing. So my comments about the Steve's Turbo custom were coming from that primary frame of reference. Then Robert nailed it in his summary and added in the great comments about accessories.
So working back to why Steve's turbo go my attention.... It simply looks good and had good lines. Frankly I'd never considered you could do that with a Quest frame, I suspect others had a similar reaction. In several ways it's more it eye catching than the Silvio 1.5 was in-spite of the similar characteristics. (or perhaps the photo was take JUST right); Since the Q3 frame is still be produced, it has the potential to fill the void between the Silvio and the Quest as currently offered.
Anyone working in a LBS can reaffirm that there needs to be a product that each potential customer can identify with when they look at it in the show room or on the website. That identifiable product is the door way to the product line as a whole. Once they are engaged with the product line they can work their way up and down the line through the price / performance options. You have about 20 seconds to make that first attention; miss you chance it usually doesn't come again.
The Silvio with drops is currently that doorway bike. I would argue that the current drops give it an odd look that is going to cause cognitive dissidence in the head of the potential buyer and they might not be drawn to the bike. But that is another topic.
The Silvio is going to be like that race bike that a lot people see in the store, but don't buy. It's too expensive with the race GroupSets. They go ooooh cool; now do you have something I can afford. While the Silvio is the ohhh cool bike the Vendetta is in the corner as the OMG bike; it needs to be there, but has a small audience. It's existence gives the customer confidence in the products.
Then customer then looks down to the next bike in the line; the budget "race" bike. Cruzbike doesn't have that bike. But perhaps a 700c/26 Quest with a low end groupset can be that machine. Having the budget racer; affirms for the customer that the product line is well thought out and that there is a bike for everyone. Only a small percentage of consumers understand that the GroupSet and Tires are what are used to lower the prices as you step down the line of bikes. The Quest also has the advantage of having a seat angle that isn't going to scare people when they look at it.
After the budget racer, they look down the line further and see the cruiser configured Quest with Straight bars. This parallels what you see in the DF ranks. At this point the customer can see ok "If I go below this point of price; I leave the race bike and get into the leisure bikes" the DF market has conditioned them to see geometry changes when that happens. Tires get fatter; handle bars go straight. Brifters are replaced with Trigger shifters and Twist shifters etc. If makes sense to them. Without that bridging bike in the middle that can be configured as either Road/Race or Leisure/Cruise/commute; the line doesn't hang together.
Some customer will enter into the product line at the bottom and move up the bike until they get to one they like and can afford, others will come in at the top and move down. The product line presented needs to facilitate their movement smoothly through the spectrum; and each jump needs to be logically small and obvious.
So my contention is that the new seat angle on the Silvio 2.x was needed on the high end; but that it has left a gap in the product line. Steve's turbo quest shows that rather nicely and it presents some intriguing marketing and sales ideas.
In Bizarro world where Cruzbikes are sold in every bike store your standard display would be.
Qty 1 - Vendetta 2.x with Bullhorns and Sick high end Parts and sells for $8-9k (on a podium in the store)
Qty 2 - Vendetta 2.x with Drops and in two different price configurations $5k and $6k
Qty 1 - Silvio 2.x with Bullhorns and high end groupo $6k
Qty 3 - Silvio 2.x with drops configured ranging from $3.5k - $4.5k
Qty 5 - Quest 3.x with dropbars and 700c and 26" wheels; configured from $2k-$3.5k
Qty 4 - Quest 3.x with Straight bars and 26" wheels; configured from $1.5k - $2k
Qty 5 - Softriders with Drops and 26" wheel configured from $1k-2k
Qty 5 - Softriders with stragiht bars configured from $600-$1k
This still leaves pricing gaps in the $450-$600 range that you really have to have; but my Bizarro skills only go so far.
Now you can't do that in the Bike stores; it's not going to happen there obviously isn't the demand to drive those inventories. But that's basically how they attack the DF. On the web on the other hand you can have those configurations. While Cruzbike can't yet supply all the bikes with full groupsets in 50 combinations; they can PRESENT the various configuration as examples; that allows customers to see the bikes to their potential and either order and configure them or get a trusted reseller to assemble configuration "XX" with said reseller have an opportunity to inject their twists and recommendation based on current parts and pricing.
So if you can have a basis of:
Vendetta 2.x Bullhorn
Vendetta 2.x Drops
Silvio 2.x Bullhorn
Silvio 2.x Drops
Quest 3.x Drops + 700 or 26
Softrider Drops + 26
Quest 3.x 26" + straight bar
Quest 3.x 541 + straight bar
Softrider Straight bar
Softrider Big tire
Softrider Kid sized.
Then you start to have a clean incremental product line.
The questions that leaves is how to you control costs and make the bikes affordable while remaining viable as a business?
(1) reuse base parts as much as possible.
(1)(a) previous discussions about merging Silvio/Vendetta main body tube
(1)(b) previous discussions about basing all the middle tier bikes on the quest frame
(2) Is having the software rider cost effective
(2)(a) would be more economical to derive low end models from quest parts
(2)(b) re-imagine the softrider as an Hrydo S tube specially for a series of bikes on the low end.
Quest is not a performace bike
FWIW, the Quest is my first recumbent bike and I've had it 6 months, so I wouldn't consider myself a seasoned recumbent rider. I'd consider myself a member of the target market for the utility line of bikes. A casual DF rider looking for a more comfortable ride for recreation and exercise.
I don't dislike your lineup Ratz, but I wonder if a Cruzbike with utility bars (i.e. handlebars on a stick) would sell in any numbers if priced over 2K. I agree there's a gap, but don't think it can be filled with a Quest derivative. The bars flex when pulled on (i.e. climbing), and that takes energy, and that energy is not being used to propel the bike forward. Which makes them less efficient then a DF. So they may be more efficient then other recumbents, but not a DF.
Now that you have a Quest available to you, maybe you can try it out on some hills and see how it compares to your Silvio. I can't make that comparison personally.
A $600 softrider would be a great entry-level recumbent, but I'm not sure that price can be achieved.
Regardless, you listed a very comprehensive, and appealing, lineup.
Rich
FWIW, the Quest is my first recumbent bike and I've had it 6 months, so I wouldn't consider myself a seasoned recumbent rider. I'd consider myself a member of the target market for the utility line of bikes. A casual DF rider looking for a more comfortable ride for recreation and exercise.
I don't dislike your lineup Ratz, but I wonder if a Cruzbike with utility bars (i.e. handlebars on a stick) would sell in any numbers if priced over 2K. I agree there's a gap, but don't think it can be filled with a Quest derivative. The bars flex when pulled on (i.e. climbing), and that takes energy, and that energy is not being used to propel the bike forward. Which makes them less efficient then a DF. So they may be more efficient then other recumbents, but not a DF.
Now that you have a Quest available to you, maybe you can try it out on some hills and see how it compares to your Silvio. I can't make that comparison personally.
A $600 softrider would be a great entry-level recumbent, but I'm not sure that price can be achieved.
Regardless, you listed a very comprehensive, and appealing, lineup.
Rich
ratz
Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Made up numbers
Rich, yeah those numbers on prices are of course from Bizzaro world; I just did some napkin guesses; and aimed high. Someone like Robert or Nanda could better comment on what prices would sell and at which they could make a living. I was mostly trying to layout a continuity of pricing and to answer the question how to you market to the masses: What hooks will draw them in? Tag-lines are nice, but compelling line-ups have more power.
It sounds like the Quest spoke to you just perfectly; so that's a great data point. Did you have to bend your thinking to go with the bike; or did it answer specific goals you where chasing?
FWIW worth; I'm beating this horse for 2 reasons. First I want Cruzbike to excel so I can ride them for many years to come. Second we started our own business 9 years ago and we went through a lot of growing pains and market thinking. We did something similar to this open discussion and got tons of great ideas that we could build on. I think there is a ton of value in these discussions, and value in pay it forward.
So I'm curious how the crowd approaches this problem with people they know and meet. Let's say you have 1 week to sell someone a Cruzbike. They plan to buy a bike one way or another at the end of the week. How do you ensure they buy the Cruzbike you know they will love? Do you take them to a bike shop and show them a real life model; do you co-pilot a web session with them? What do you show them? What do you tell them? How do you sell them the bike?
Rich, yeah those numbers on prices are of course from Bizzaro world; I just did some napkin guesses; and aimed high. Someone like Robert or Nanda could better comment on what prices would sell and at which they could make a living. I was mostly trying to layout a continuity of pricing and to answer the question how to you market to the masses: What hooks will draw them in? Tag-lines are nice, but compelling line-ups have more power.
It sounds like the Quest spoke to you just perfectly; so that's a great data point. Did you have to bend your thinking to go with the bike; or did it answer specific goals you where chasing?
FWIW worth; I'm beating this horse for 2 reasons. First I want Cruzbike to excel so I can ride them for many years to come. Second we started our own business 9 years ago and we went through a lot of growing pains and market thinking. We did something similar to this open discussion and got tons of great ideas that we could build on. I think there is a ton of value in these discussions, and value in pay it forward.
So I'm curious how the crowd approaches this problem with people they know and meet. Let's say you have 1 week to sell someone a Cruzbike. They plan to buy a bike one way or another at the end of the week. How do you ensure they buy the Cruzbike you know they will love? Do you take them to a bike shop and show them a real life model; do you co-pilot a web session with them? What do you show them? What do you tell them? How do you sell them the bike?
Build a website worthy of the bikes
I was on the fence between the Softrider and Quest, and ended up with the Quest simply because I liked the lack of a front deraileur, and short cranks, and it was purpose-built. In reality, if the Quest hadn't been available, I'd have gotten a Softrider and probably have been just as happy with it. So, I wouldn't say the Quest actually spoke to me.
After giving it some more thought, I think perhaps Cruzbike's website sales model might be their best choice (even if they had other options). Test riding them doesn't help sell them, and few people are going impulse buy a $1200+ bicycle. So those that buy them are going to buy them based on research and research is best done on the web.
Also, I think they really only need two models. One for Utility (Softrider) and one for performance (Silvio). Given no other choices, I think the two target markets (City/Performance) would buy the only option available to them. Clearly they have two other models, and that doesn't hurt, but might not actually be increasing their sales.
So, IMO, they should focus on improving the website. It is their store. They need clearer information about the bikes, and more first-hand reports/reviews from riders. Currently, it's kind of a hodge podge, and given it's their storefront, it really should be better. Ivan (performance rider with lots of great comments on the Silvio) and Jeremy S (Went from never having a $1000+ bike to a Softrider and then Silvio in short order) have great stories, exemplify their target markets, and yet aren't even listed as "riders". I realize they've focused on the engineering aspects of the business, but now I think it's time to reshift some focus to the website.
And the fact that Maria went from, I believe, barely riding a bike to winning RAAM in a few years is just phenomenal. That's simply a story no other bike manufacturer has, or could have. And while Maria is clearly a giant part of that, the bike I think is an important piece too.
They have a designer and physician on board and it shows with the product. Unfortunately, they don't have a marketing team and that shows too. But, I'm guessing that might change soon, now that they appear to have a runaway sales hit on their hands (the Silvio).
So, there you go. Advice from someone who's never had his own business and never sold anything.
Rich
I was on the fence between the Softrider and Quest, and ended up with the Quest simply because I liked the lack of a front deraileur, and short cranks, and it was purpose-built. In reality, if the Quest hadn't been available, I'd have gotten a Softrider and probably have been just as happy with it. So, I wouldn't say the Quest actually spoke to me.
After giving it some more thought, I think perhaps Cruzbike's website sales model might be their best choice (even if they had other options). Test riding them doesn't help sell them, and few people are going impulse buy a $1200+ bicycle. So those that buy them are going to buy them based on research and research is best done on the web.
Also, I think they really only need two models. One for Utility (Softrider) and one for performance (Silvio). Given no other choices, I think the two target markets (City/Performance) would buy the only option available to them. Clearly they have two other models, and that doesn't hurt, but might not actually be increasing their sales.
So, IMO, they should focus on improving the website. It is their store. They need clearer information about the bikes, and more first-hand reports/reviews from riders. Currently, it's kind of a hodge podge, and given it's their storefront, it really should be better. Ivan (performance rider with lots of great comments on the Silvio) and Jeremy S (Went from never having a $1000+ bike to a Softrider and then Silvio in short order) have great stories, exemplify their target markets, and yet aren't even listed as "riders". I realize they've focused on the engineering aspects of the business, but now I think it's time to reshift some focus to the website.
And the fact that Maria went from, I believe, barely riding a bike to winning RAAM in a few years is just phenomenal. That's simply a story no other bike manufacturer has, or could have. And while Maria is clearly a giant part of that, the bike I think is an important piece too.
They have a designer and physician on board and it shows with the product. Unfortunately, they don't have a marketing team and that shows too. But, I'm guessing that might change soon, now that they appear to have a runaway sales hit on their hands (the Silvio).
So, there you go. Advice from someone who's never had his own business and never sold anything.
Rich
currystomper
Well-Known Member
An Electric Quest
When I first build my conversion - the second stage of the plan was to add a power system to it (but I didn't get to this stage). I think that its another spec point that can be added to the Bizarro list - it would make for a good town bike - the electric system could help the in fast starts needed in town riding and hauling groceries/kids etc up hills/ though head winds.
....but I think that this would be a diversion for Cruzbike at the moment , maybe a project for an enthusiastic dealer???
cheers
CS
When I first build my conversion - the second stage of the plan was to add a power system to it (but I didn't get to this stage). I think that its another spec point that can be added to the Bizarro list - it would make for a good town bike - the electric system could help the in fast starts needed in town riding and hauling groceries/kids etc up hills/ though head winds.
....but I think that this would be a diversion for Cruzbike at the moment , maybe a project for an enthusiastic dealer???
cheers
CS
Nanda Holz
Active Member
Turbo Quest 700...nice work!!!
Your mod looks great, in fact I am going to reproduce it...since I just sold our last Silvio 2.1, our demo this week, and I know they are coin to be out of stock for a bit. Not sure why I didn't think if this setup sooner, so thanks for the inspiration! The hardshell seat mod I did on the quest will compliment the big wheels, and CB style drop bars look and function well on everything CB! Can you get a 25mm tire to clear the fork? Maybe his is what Silvio 2.1 seat angle concerned buyer will be satisfied with??? To do it right, and make a useful mod on another of our CB's, I'll put the full Dualdrive kit onto a Sofrider including fork swap, but will dump the crappy knee poking DD shift housing in favor of SRAM 9x3 gripshifters like Nazca uses on their DD equipped touring bikes. Like I needed another project or two, thanks!
Your mod looks great, in fact I am going to reproduce it...since I just sold our last Silvio 2.1, our demo this week, and I know they are coin to be out of stock for a bit. Not sure why I didn't think if this setup sooner, so thanks for the inspiration! The hardshell seat mod I did on the quest will compliment the big wheels, and CB style drop bars look and function well on everything CB! Can you get a 25mm tire to clear the fork? Maybe his is what Silvio 2.1 seat angle concerned buyer will be satisfied with??? To do it right, and make a useful mod on another of our CB's, I'll put the full Dualdrive kit onto a Sofrider including fork swap, but will dump the crappy knee poking DD shift housing in favor of SRAM 9x3 gripshifters like Nazca uses on their DD equipped touring bikes. Like I needed another project or two, thanks!
