Ready to build the ultimate Vendetta racing machine

[LarryOz]

OK,
Getting serious now!
I have ordered a V20 frameset!
My goal is to create the fastest Vendetta I can and have it ready and broken in for Sebring 2014 on Feb 14th for either a 12 or 24 hour race.
I saw on some website an M5 loweracer had published a 40kph speed at 175 watts. (Do not know what configuration, but assumed tricked out as much as possible)
My best testing on my current V2.0 is 40.4kpm at 200 watts, but I think there are many improvements that can still be made, and hope to match or beat that 40kph at 175watts.

Where I think there is room for improvement of my current V2.0 setup:
- full disc wheels
- more area handlebars and hand and arm placement
- better BB and or bearings
- Rotor QXL rings tuned for flatness
- more tuned crank length to thigh/tibia angles during pedaling
- selecting the most advantages gearing for the speed.
- Less weight - bike components and my pot belly! (I am about 70-72KG, wondering if possible to loose down to 65KG without sacrificing any power?)
- anything else??? ideas welcome

V20 is on its way;
I just got notice that the V20 frameset shipped from Taiwan last Friday, so should be here in a couple of weeks, or at least by the end of the year.
So, I know there is a wealth of knowledge and wisdom out there in Cruzbike land, far beyond my limited scope, so am asking you all for input as to what you think are the best components and configurations that it would be helpful to build or incorporate into this new V20 build.

What I have already:
- Ultegra Di2 11sp system. (this should help with tuning and adjustment during testing phase - no more detaching and re-attaching cables!)
- I already use Rotor Q-rings on the V2.0, and have got a set of Rotor QXL 53/38 rings to set up on the V20
- I have a variety of wheels (all with Ceramic bearings) and tires to test:
Carbon Fiber: Full discs clinchers
Carbon Fiber: Tri-Spokes clinchers
Rolf Prima 85TT CF tubular
Jagged Surf 60mm Carbon Fiber with metal rims & brake tracks
Any other wheels it would be good to try and test with?

-tires
Clincher Tires: Cont 4000 S II - with latex tubes
Tubular Tires: Cont Sprinter
Vittoria Open Corsa CX
? what else has worked great for you guys out there?
(I will build all wheelsets out, and plan to take them to the track, try different configurations and see what the differences are under like conditions
Things I don't have yet:
Bottom Bracket: (I have SRAM Blackbox GPX Ceramic on my V2.0) - anything any better?
Brakes: nothing yet - all ideas welcome - I really don't like to use brakes, but sometimes you must slow down..
handlebars: I have a set of ZIPP CF - very light and areo, but I am thinking of something that gets my hands more out of the airflow. Ideas suggestions?
What else am I missing?
anyone ever try a 650 rear wheel? lower the back end and the recline angle a little I suppose???

I welcome any and all comments from all of you.
Let the dialog begin.
Thanks in advance,
Larry

p.s. And I'm sorry Cruzbike, but I am going to have to powder coat the boom a matching red and put Vendetta logo on it.

 

[ratz]

Ok you asked

For the tires; you should consult Tim Turner for a starting point; he's probably thought about it more than anyone else; in the end wheels are about the Hub, the Tire, the weight; in that order. A Great Hub trumps everything else until you cover the spokes.

Bottom Bracket: (I have SRAM Blackbox GPX Ceramic on my V2. [Innocent] - anything any better?

Yep the The XD-15

http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id332.html


Brakes; well if you want to upgrade those Di2 Levers to the hydraulic ones then RTT8's will look great on a red V20. Not sure you'd want the weight of the master cylinder need to use cable actuated brakes. Otherwise you probably should find the brakes that they would ship with the BullHorn kits; those where impressive but hard to source on your own.

 

[Andrew 1973]

"I am going to have to powder

"I am going to have to powder coat the boom a matching red and put Vendetta logo on it. "

Then you going to have to post pictures along with your build diary and ride experiences. We Cruzbike nuts will accept no less.

Congrats on the new addition to your stable!

 

[Jim Gerwing]

Good on ya, Larry

Of course, I'm partial to aerodynamic aides. Depending on what your category allows I recommend some kind of bottom cover for your shoes, full disc front wheel, arms in behind legs ( it will be a stretch to get your elbows inside your body line), aero-helmet/tailbox, full disc rear wheel and, as you said, there is some kind of optimal mass for you which is most easily controlled by diet (but expensive bike parts have their place). The equation is simple: air resistance increases as a square to velocity. When you get up to the speeds you're achieving, moving air aside and stopping it from becoming turbulent is your main adversary. Oh, and choose your site and day very carefully ( like sprinters choose their parents) because flat, straight, newly paved roads and, up to certain points, high pressure altitudes in low wind conditions will permit peak performance. Godspeed.

 

[BBL]

Chain Lube & Other Stuff

I think your 40 kph at 200 watts is already pretty impressive. 40 kph at 175 watts is unbelievable. It's so unbelievable that I am skeptical. It is very difficult to get accurate and repeatable speed vs power data.

You did not mention chain lube. Most people don't pay a lot of attention to this, but dirty, improperly maintained chains can cost you several watts. The data that I have seen indicate that waxed chains produce very low friction and stay clean. Check out Molten Speed Wax.

Another fallacy is that ceramic bearings are necessarily lower friction than steel. I have seen test data on SRAM bottom brackets that show steel GXP out performing ceramic GXP. This is because the steel counterpart has more balls than the ceramic version. In the end steel was the better choice. I was a victim of this marketing hype and ended up spending more for less. This having been said, test data on 11 tooth rear derailleur pulleys (ceramic bearings) can save a watt or two. Doesn't sound like much compared to 200 and all this stuff gets pretty expensive.

Maybe more effective to focus on the supply side of the equation. I have been blown away by how much power elite athletes can sustain. It's not uncommon for these guys to sustain nearly 300 watts. Checkout some of the training plans at Training Peaks. They also have some great articles on nutrition. Personally, I'll never achieve this level, but there is considerable upside potential on this side of the equation.

 

[KiwiGuy]

Looking forward to the photos

Hi Larry

I'm looking forward to the photos of the new V with red powder coated boom!

Re your comment about the M5 - it might be related to the M5CHR fitted with a railgun seat - http://synthetictransport.com/railgun/index.html

I suspect that the two big improvements you could make to reduce aero drag are:

#1. Reduce the seat angle. It looks like the railgun seat would get you down to about 10 degrees. I doubt if you could do that on the V without structural changes you're likely loath to make.

#2. Use machine gun grips or similar to get your upper arms and elbows in against your side and forearms and hands in the wind shadow of your legs. Again I doubt if that is viable on the V because of MBB.

Although neither are the route you are going down, I'm inclined to the view that for a flat-land/rolling country route, the M5CHR Railgun, or a Morciglio Arrowhead are likely to be the fastest options - http://www.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4693

Given the route you've decided on, I think between Jim and you most options are covered. Deep dish front, full disc back, aero helmet/tail-box, and trying to find a way to get your upper arms/elbows against your side and your forearms/hands in the wind shadow of your legs.

Good luck with your venture.

Kind regards....

 

[MrSteve]

Aerodynamic Tomfoolery

Everyone has awesome advice; all I have is some experience to share
which will just validate advice that's already been given!

Keep your frontal area as small as you can.
You'll be pedaling a V, so you'll have a good start with the very reclined seat.

The next biggest aerodynamic gain I've seen was from running
a disk rear wheel.
It not only smooths the turbulence behind the bike, like a splitter,
but a side benefit is added stability.
With a rear disk, the bike feels more planted.

Next aerodynamic change that was worth keeping?
Handlebars that put my arms in the most aero position -for me.


Other aero mods I've tried were various cardboard or foam splitters and
fairings that helped ease the slipstream past my head/neck and all the round tubes and wheels
on my bike: They helped, but not nearly as much as both a radically
reclined seat (small frontal area), a disk rear wheel and an aerodynamic handlebar that
fit me.

Good luck and have fun!

-Steve

 

[ratz]

Aero Aero aero.

Echoing... At Vendetta speeds Aero Aero aero.

I often feel dorky with my full visor helmet; that is until I get 2-5mph more on a down hill than can get with my helmet functioning as a braking parachute. Just wish we had longer down hills to really enjoy it.

 

[snilard]

175 W for 40 km/h on M5

175 W for 40 km/h on M5 lowracer is nice number. But it is for M5 lowracer with some tail fairing. And we also don't know how they measured these numbers. I would except measurement of drag force in aerodynamic tunnel. But who knows. So different measurement method, different numbers...

I think that 200 W for 40 km/h is also nice number. You can lower it but will you go as low as 175 W? I would guess no without fairing. But on LR you cannot use your upper body...

I also think that ceramic bearings are wasting of money for normal riders as us. Your will get more benefit from structured training directed to your race than from ceramic bearing in your rear mech. 12/24 h races are not only about having fastest bike but it is mainly about engines powering this bikes. If you get stomach retch in half of race because you are not used to ride so long You can have the fastest bike but you will be on the tail or in hospital.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Echoing... At Vendetta speeds

Echoing... At Vendetta speeds Aero Aero aero.

I've also got to give this a PLUS ONE!

We have a 7.5 mile area of the River Trail that I call the Autobahn, fairly flat, very little pedestrian, and no speed limit. I'm out running the DF-folks here - these are the hard core guys that don't like to get passed by anyone, especially a recumbent. Some of these guys are 1/2 my age, and twice my fitness. When they see me closing the gap they will start picking up the pace, faster and faster. I try and save a little until I get right behind them, that's when it gets tough and they go all out, as I do too. They hate the word "left" as I pass them, the real work comes into play, and the adrenalin is full on. Now I don't quit, because I need to put distance between us, a nice gap, until they turn into a speck. They catch me (only because I stopped), and say something like "man you are fast". I just say I'm not fast, but the bike is, it all about aerodynamics.

 

[Andrew 1973]

"They hate the word "left" as

"They hate the word "left" as I pass them..."

I wonder if the pleasant tone of a brass bell would be more annoying? Ding-ding!

 

[ratz]

Now you did it.

Now you did it; if this is stuck in my head all day you must join me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSk4zwjg5A

Coming soon from AirZound - the Nash Rambler version.

 

[Andrew 1973]

Awesome. Forget the bell,

Awesome. Forget the bell, this is even more annoying.

Ugh...I wish I could embed too!

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Testing YouTube Video  

Testing YouTube Video

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Very appropriate!! I can feel

Very appropriate!! I can feel the adrenaline rush!

Try this to Post YouTube video:

Get the embed code from YouTube. Create the comment with some text. Then save it. Then edit it, and click the Video "Embed Icon" and paste the code in the dialog box and save.

Note: to edit post you may have to refresh the screen half a dozen times to get edit box to display.

This worked for me. Used to be easier to embed videos for some reason.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

Andrews Youtube:

 

Andrews Youtube:

 

[LarryOz]

You are a riot Rick!!

You are a riot Rick!!
You have to video that catch one day and play it back for us!!
.........
I don't have time to look it up, but another nice sound to make whilst passing your buds, would be the road-runner. "beep-beep"

Kudos to you.

..p.s.
Oh yeah - And thanks again for all the input and advice from everyone so far
I truly get it that areo is king, and that is the first priority.
but,, as long as I got some of this (bmw money left) I'll probably still get some toys too!
keep the comments coming - love them..

 

[Lief]

Echo-ing what Ratz said about

Echo-ing what Ratz said about TTurner.
He uses this data as well as his own experimentation/calculation.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4412701

He has, in the past said, Vittoria Open Corsa (probably the CX) with latex tubes = best bang for the buck.\
I see some tire-names on this page I've not seen before though - and i'd be interested to see if you might find the latest data somewhere in this thread - since the 1st page is from ~2012

I don't think Tim is on this forum ever but he is on BROL.

He LOVES to talk about this stuff Larry, he's about as objective as you might get in a human, and I'm sure he would be a fountain of information.

 

[ratz]

Well mostly

Yep objective; unless he's talking about his Joule GPS
Larry he's on Thom's facebook group too.

 

[Rampa]

Narrow hamster bars keep your arms in

I used to ride cut down flat bars on my Performer. It was very narrow, fast, and sweaty! Vangelo posted this a while back, although some may say getting between the bar ends and brakes is dangerous. For aero, you may not want the bar-ends at all.

This is an awesome solution for road brifters on a flat bar.