Road bike vs. recumbent comparison

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Balor

Zen MBB Master
You mention you have a local who is a big guy and probably rolling with an ftp of close to 400 which sounds crazy strong(it is) but does his extra body weight drop his Wkg back down to the realm of 4.5wkg with guys like me.

Indeed, he is about 190 cm high and weight of a bit less than 90. No 'broiler legs' like those of gym rats or track sprinters, typical TT guy, does 450 5 minute intervals (Quarq power meter, actually helped him install it :)) on a regular as part of a training regiment, typical TT speeds with some turnarounds south of 45 kmh.
 

bladderhead

Zen MBB Master
Balor said:
my surface is certainly furry
I meant a furry fairing. The airflow along the sides of the fairing becomes turbulent. If you put fur on it the airflow remains laminar. And fur is one thing that is easy to obtain in Russia. Just shoot a bear.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
The only reason 300+ watts for an hour on a bent are rare and only pedestrian on a DF is simply the talent pool willing to ride them and nothing to do with the mechanics of the design. I just held like 290+ watts for an hour on my DF bike a couple weeks ago and it's been a while since I've ridden the V20 but last year I held 280 watts for over 2hours on it on a hilly 50 mile ride. Hard to compare absolute potential of two designs when one is powered by a hobbiest and the other by a pro.

The thing about the Borrego event is everyone's plan is to pace themselves and the shortest race is 6 hours so finding someone to go over 300 watts for even a single lap when their average is only going to be 270 would mean they suck at pacing. Andy Jackson has the fastest 6hour effort out there and his best 1 hour power was 294 which was the first hour of the race. You can pretty much count out the team racers because most of them can't even match the solos endurance pace for even a single lap. You put a Pro DF rider with an FTP of 400 watts on a bent and you'll see what 400 watts for an hour on a bent can do, until then you and guess and estimate away to your hearts content. I don't think for a second a Pro rider will lose even a watt on a bent compared to they're DF in a 1 hour effort. Honestly I think in a 1 hour effort a rider could actually hold a few % higher watts on the bent vs the DF because on a DF you really start to struggling to hold your form in those last 15 mins and that's not as much a problem on a form fitting bent.

After all the discussion here and my recent 1 hour effort trying to take a 25 mile KOM on the DF bike I'm curious if I could do better powerwise on the V20. If I even get settled in down here in socal and bring the V20 down I'd like to see if I can find a place to go all out for one hour on both bikes and compare.

If you want to compare your power profile on both types of bikes, just do an all out 5 minute effort, a maximum sprint effort, and a proper 20 minute test on both platforms. The easiest would be to open two XERT accounts and let it calculate your power duration profiles. Then cancel the accounts. They may offer a trial. GoldenCheetaah does the PD curve too but it is not as easy to use but is free.

I completely disagree on the platforms being equal. The biomechanics and lung perfusion profile between the supine and upright position varies significantly and are key reasons many/most bent riders make less power. The research data is out there and it does not take a lot of connecting the dots to see. A Pro with 400 watts is not likely to make 400 watts on a bent even if they stuck with it long enough. It is possible but not likely. Would he eventually make 350? I dunno. Try getting them to stick with it long enough......LOL.

WRT to Borrego Springs, Marco B. averaged 301 watts for about the first 125 miles on an upright and most other DF racers were around 250 watts or more. I seemed to have remembered that you (175 W), Jim, Willie Hunt (145 watts) and Kevin G. (167 W) were under 180 about watts and checking the actual Strava data confirms that all the bent riders were in the 145-175 watt range for the first 125 miles whereas similarly placed upright riders were averaging 250-300 watts, which of course clearly demonstrates the superior aerodynamics of the bents.....we all know this. Even on the first 18 mile lap of the race, one can look at the KoM data. I think Jim is 3rd out of all riders and he only needed 207 watts. Does anyone think he was soft pedaling? I doubt anyone would think that you or Jim did anything other than your very best. Almost every bent rider makes less power than on an upright but they go much faster on the flats and slower on bigger hills. The bents were slower than the uprights on that little hill in Borrego. This is just the way it is for 99.44% of us. From my old upright perspective, 145-175 watts is pathetic for 5 hours if on an upright. It really is. At 57 years old, I used to hold 220-230 watts for 8 hours and over 200 watts for 12 hours on an upright and I am no place close to that on a bent.....nowhere near that. On the other hand, I would be delighted to hold 175 watts for 12 hours in Borrego later in October but ain't holding my breath on that one. Not to be too obtuse.....175 watts for me would destroy the 12H bent record sitting at 248 miles and just under the upright or overall record of 285 miles. None of this answers whether a 400 watt pro could do 400 watts on a bent and frankly, we will never know. We'll just have our opinions. Mine is clear.


https://www.strava.com/segments/16464241?filter=overall
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
There is no question people overguesstimate their FTP. Few even know how to perform the test properly and few know how to check the calibration of the PM.

I started racing in the late 70's. Being an engineer, I calculated my power output back then (not that it is hard). I had recently read an interesting forum post by Andrew Coggan on UKTimeTrialing or maybe Slowtwitch where he went thru an analysis showing the average person with 5 hard years of work could get to a 3.9 W/Kg limit. I worked really, really hard for more than 5 years and just got to 4w/Kg and now that I am old and on a bent, we don't discuss such matters in polite society. I remember at the very peak of my fitness and after winning my club championship stage race in a large metro area, I went out to Colorado to watch the World RR championship in Co. Springs. I used to go all over the world to watch races. Anyway, one morning about a week before the World Road race, I was riding hard up a climb towards Manitou Springs if I remember the town name correctly. Close to threshold. Solid pace for me. Up behind me comes the Italian National team. Chitchatting. Laughing. Joking around. Not even working. They were on a recovery ride and I was near threshold. The coolest part.....they asked me to sit in. No kiddin. Best workout of my life. Eyeopening for sure. If they were A riders.....I was an F.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
I think he is being coy at the very least (not to mention he didn't share any data as per his performance... at least *my* data is freely available for anyone to analyse, I'm not paranoid).
We have a group of amateur cyclists in our town I'm monitoring on Strava (ride with them sometimes) and only ones that train really hard are anywhere close to 300 ftp. There is one exception - a large guy with FTP a bit over 400, but he is, while amateur, has won some national level TT races.

It is not hard to see their power files on known TT courses like my 10 mile river road TT course. That is where tons of USA Cycling TT's were held in my area over the yeats. 320-360W for 10 miles is typical for 20 minutes for the top 20 leaders on STRAVA although two are close to 400 watts. This is only around 20 minutes, so, discount 5-10% for FTP. The guy at the top is an internally ranked Tri Guy, most are Cat 1 or 2 and one is an old fat dork on a bent. The Master National TT champion (USA) from a few years back is a big, big guy and his FTP was *only* 360 watts.....I think he rolled 49 minutes. Coy isn't the right word.

Also, STRAVA incorrectly estimates power levels. If there is no lightning bolt next to the wattage, it is an estimate and it is mostly wrong.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
The French hour record guy (cannot spell his name if my life depended on it) guy did hold 370 watts for an hour, I think I saw his PM graph somewhere, unless it was shopped or something...
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
Also, STRAVA incorrectly estimates power levels. If there is no lightning bolt next to the wattage, it is an estimate and it is mostly wrong.

Lol, if Strava estimates were true I averaged about 350 watts on my recent 200 km ride :). I look at data of those with PMs and 'guesstimate' the rest.
None of them understand why I bother with bents, they know I was faster on an upright, ehehe.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
The French hour record guy (cannot spell his name if my life depended on it) guy did hold 370 watts for an hour, I think I saw his PM graph somewhere, unless it was shopped or something...

He did not have a PM on the bike that I could see and I looked for his power file. I even went thru the french velo couche forums.

There were reports also of the custom M5's CdA, you know the one with the fancy shoes and batwing shoulder holders.

It did not add up by my calculations. Either the CdA was higher or he did not make 370 watts for the hour. IIRC, he also said on a French forum that he thinks he almost made close to the same power on a bent as an upright.

What is interesting to me. If Aure did use 370 watts for 35.xx miles in one hour, we know where 247 watts for 30 mph comes from. I read the 247 watts for 30 mph in two places. M5's website and Areolus' post on BROL, where he claimed 30 mph on 247 watts. Real coy. Didn't take a rocket scientist to know it was BS.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
In 2015 I did Paris Brest Paris in 54 hours.

I did most of my 2015/16 Brevets in under 60% of the required time and some in under 50%. Kent Polk wasn't much faster on a 300K on his M5 than I was on my fendered rando bike.

In 2016 I did TABR in 29 days with lots of injuries en route. I did a bunch of Brevets as well. Mileage 12-15,000 per year.

In 2017 I transitioned to a bent. My fitness was decent when I started.

Never smoked, no drinking except wine at Italian family holidays. Upright FTP 280-285. 60 years old. Solidly average for someone who works really hard at it.

A 50-60 Kg female cyclist with an FTP of 255 ish is hardly a club rider. This is Pro territory for a women, certainly if off 50Kg. A women in my racing club decades ago was the USCF National 40Km TT Champion and we currently have a nationally ranked women's team in the area.

I know a guy who got to Cat 2 off 220 watts FTP but he had a lot of skill and could sprint.

Around here, it's not uncommon to find Cat 2 racers with FTP's north of 300 watts. There are cyclists I know like Strava king John Stone, who has never raced and yet has an FTP of 310W. Male cyclists with FTP's in the 200 watt range are a dime a dozen, so when I read that Jim could only manage 217 watts for 5 minutes, I think something has gone terribly wrong.

I suspect your training class needs its power meters calibrated or you are somehow misinformed in another manner.

These training classes use the CompuTrainer Lab, which was ranked as one of the most accurate units on the market at that time. I always had my own power meter turned on while on the CompuTrainer, as did some others. While the CompuTrainer seemed to be a bit slower to register changes in power output than my Vectors, the numbers were practically identical once they leveled off.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I don't think for a second a Pro rider will lose even a watt on a bent compared to they're DF in a 1 hour effort.

This is the thing I found so curious when I switched to a bent. My max power took a major hit, but the lower the level of exertion, the closer the numbers became. I wouldn't be surprised if my FTP on both the M5 and DF at the time were approximately the same, despite a difference of several hundred watts at the upper levels. Over the years, my max power on a recumbent has slowly increased, but it's still 150-200 watts less than my max on a DF. Since I've seen no improvement in over a year, I doubt they will ever be the same.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Around here, it's not uncommon to find Cat 2 racers with FTP's north of 300 watts. There are cyclists I know like Strava king John Stone, who has never raced and yet has an FTP of 310W. Male cyclists with FTP's in the 200 watt range are a dime a dozen, so when I read that Jim could only manage 217 watts for 5 minutes, I think something has gone terribly wrong.



These training classes use the CompuTrainer Lab, which was ranked as one of the most accurate units on the market at that time. I always had my own power meter turned on while on the CompuTrainer, as did some others. While the CompuTrainer seemed to be a bit slower to register changes in power output than my Vectors, the numbers were practically identical once they leveled off.

You have no idea what you are talking about and have failed to read or comprehend anything that I and others have posted.

Jim only made 207 watts for his 3rd place on the KoM list for the 18 mile loop at the Borrego Springs championship. Races bring out one's best and the first lap on something like this brings out a good effort.

Cat 2 racers are not all that common and 255 watts for a female racer is not club level.
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
Around here, it's not uncommon to find Cat 2 racers with FTP's north of 300 watts. There are cyclists I know like Strava king John Stone, who has never raced and yet has an FTP of 310W. Male cyclists with FTP's in the 200 watt range are a dime a dozen, so when I read that Jim could only manage 217 watts for 5 minutes, I think something has gone terribly wrong.



These training classes use the CompuTrainer Lab, which was ranked as one of the most accurate units on the market at that time. I always had my own power meter turned on while on the CompuTrainer, as did some others. While the CompuTrainer seemed to be a bit slower to register changes in power output than my Vectors, the numbers were practically identical once they leveled off.

Were the efforts one full hour? If you are making 286 watts for one hour, post the data. I have never seen power that high on a bent. (actual power for an hour, not calculated off 20 minutes or something like that)
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
You have no idea what you are talking about and have failed to read or comprehend anything that I and others have posted.

Jim only made 207 watts for his 3rd place on the KoM list for the 18 mile loop at the Borrego Springs championship. Races bring out one's best and the first lap on something like this brings out a good effort.

You seem completely lost. We're not talking about an 18 mile loop, or any kind of race result. I'm referring to the numbers Jim posted in his test, one of which shows that he only managed 217 watts for 5 minutes! That's a ridiculously low number. It is beyond belief that someone of Jim's physical size and training could perform so poorly in a 5 minute test. It is beyond belief that he couldn't even manage 500 watts for 5 seconds. I don't know how you can be so credulous when it suits you. You've certainly done enough power testing of your own. Are you really telling me that YOU couldn't do any better?
 
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Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Were the efforts one full hour? If you are making 286 watts for one hour, post the data. I have never seen power that high on a bent. (actual power for an hour, not calculated off 20 minutes or something like that)

What efforts? Nothing in the post you quoted refers to me doing an FTP test, nor did I ever claim that my FTP was 286 watts.
 

trplay

Zen MBB Master
That's a ridiculously low number. It is beyond belief that someone of Jim's physical size and training could perform so poorly.

Well, while you're in the world of the Beyond Belief don't take a look at my paltry numbers. Many often wonder how a man of my great stature and incredible physical attributes post such teeny-tiny numbers. Is it humanly possible one would ask. Unfortunately, yes it is.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Well, while you're in the world of the Beyond Belief don't take a look at my paltry numbers. Many often wonder how a man of my great stature and incredible physical attributes post such teeny-tiny numbers. Is it humanly possible one would ask. Unfortunately, yes it is.

What sort of numbers were you getting when performing your test?

While we're on the subject, Balor suggested that your failure to obtain a positive result was because you were performed the test incorrectly. For the benefit of doubters, can you explain exactly how the test was done?
 

ed72

Zen MBB Master
You seem completely lost. We're not talking about an 18 mile loop, or any kind of race result. I'm referring to the numbers Jim posted in his test, one of which shows that he only managed 217 watts for 5 minutes! That's a ridiculously low number. It is beyond belief that someone of Jim's physical size and training could perform so poorly in a 5 minute test. It is beyond belief that he couldn't even manage 500 watts for 5 seconds. I don't know how you can be so credulous when it suits you. You've certainly done enough power testing of your own. Are you really telling me that YOU couldn't do any better?

Since you claim to have analysed power files, here is the strava trophy chest of what I consider to be the one or two strongest bent riders in the country. What is his FTP on a bent in your estimation? What is his 5 minute power? What is it on the Trek upright? Be careful, he has upright and bent trophies in there. Again, probably the strongest bent rider on the country (W/Kg).

Here is the link.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/156410/segments/leader?page=6

The reason I had provided the link to that race is because the first lap of a mass start like that is like a honeymoon and Jim was only doing the 6h race and since he is #3 on the KoM board, one can safely assume he did the lap pretty hard. Few riders hold back in such excitement. It is also not rocket science from the data to make an estimate of the entire PD curve. No, I am not confused nor lost. I guess you got me mad making those statements about Jim Parker.

So, 217 watts for 5 minutes on a bent is not ridiculous. Your statement at 256 watts FTP for a female club rider is beyond silly. I suspect 90% or more of the forum can't do 217 watts for 5 minutes. I already told you it took me 10 months to get to that level; it also took me 10 months to top 600 watts for 5 seconds. I am not anemic nor do I smoke or drink as you intimated. I am just average. I worked really, really hard on my anaerobic peak 5 seconds power for months and got it t0 a relatively modest 727 watts. I bought the RS4X crank and got it well over 900 watts in one day! This is around 300 watts less peak 5 second than I make on an upright. Remember? You didn't seem to believe or listen...you just argued with me.
 

RojoRacing

Donut Powered Wise-guy
If you want to compare your power profile on both types of bikes, just do an all out 5 minute effort, a maximum sprint effort, and a proper 20 minute test on both platforms. The easiest would be to open two XERT accounts and let it calculate your power duration profiles. Then cancel the accounts. They may offer a trial. GoldenCheetaah does the PD curve too but it is not as easy to use but is free.

I completely disagree on the platforms being equal. The biomechanics and lung perfusion profile between the supine and upright position varies significantly and are key reasons many/most bent riders make less power. The research data is out there and it does not take a lot of connecting the dots to see. A Pro with 400 watts is not likely to make 400 watts on a bent even if they stuck with it long enough. It is possible but not likely. Would he eventually make 350? I dunno. Try getting them to stick with it long enough......LOL.

WRT to Borrego Springs, Marco B. averaged 301 watts for about the first 125 miles on an upright and most other DF racers were around 250 watts or more. I seemed to have remembered that you (175 W), Jim, Willie Hunt (145 watts) and Kevin G. (167 W) were under 180 about watts and checking the actual Strava data confirms that all the bent riders were in the 145-175 watt range for the first 125 miles whereas similarly placed upright riders were averaging 250-300 watts, which of course clearly demonstrates the superior aerodynamics of the bents.....we all know this. Even on the first 18 mile lap of the race, one can look at the KoM data. I think Jim is 3rd out of all riders and he only needed 207 watts. Does anyone think he was soft pedaling? I doubt anyone would think that you or Jim did anything other than your very best. Almost every bent rider makes less power than on an upright but they go much faster on the flats and slower on bigger hills. The bents were slower than the uprights on that little hill in Borrego. This is just the way it is for 99.44% of us. From my old upright perspective, 145-175 watts is pathetic for 5 hours if on an upright. It really is. At 57 years old, I used to hold 220-230 watts for 8 hours and over 200 watts for 12 hours on an upright and I am no place close to that on a bent.....nowhere near that. On the other hand, I would be delighted to hold 175 watts for 12 hours in Borrego later in October but ain't holding my breath on that one. Not to be too obtuse.....175 watts for me would destroy the 12H bent record sitting at 248 miles and just under the upright or overall record of 285 miles. None of this answers whether a 400 watt pro could do 400 watts on a bent and frankly, we will never know. We'll just have our opinions. Mine is clear.


https://www.strava.com/segments/16464241?filter=overall

Be careful how you present your numbers, your claiming a low average for one group(145-175 when my average first first couple hours was 200) and a high average for another(250-300) with marko at 300 who who has like 15kg on maybe all the bent riders you listed. Also factor in that I was in like 10th place for the first several hours because the top guys were all hell bent on dropping each other and you are trying to compare very different speeds as well. If I were to have stayed with the leaders I would have been close to 240 watts which would have still been lower then their but not 100+ watts lower. My watts wouldn't have been lower because I was on a bent ether because I would have been making just a little power had I been on my DF bike, I was able to keep pace with the leaders eventually because I was on a bent, no arguing there.
 

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
Since you claim to have analysed power files, here is the strava trophy chest of what I consider to be the one or two strongest bent riders in the country. What is his FTP on a bent in your estimation? What is his 5 minute power? What is it on the Trek upright?

Tim Turner is below average in size and weight, but his physical conditioning is stellar. It would be more useful to compare apples to apples, don't you think? Jim is a large guy at 6'-2". That's two inches taller than I am, and I suspect he weighs in the neighborhood of 190-200 lbs. That's what Kent Polk weighs at the same height. Big guys make lots of power, even if their power to weight ratio isn't that impressive. A larger than average male younger than I am who trains regularly and participates in races should be able to put out significantly more power than I do, yet Jim's numbers don't even come close to mine. How do you explain that? By suggesting that every power meter I've ever used is off by several hundred watts? By suggesting that I'm a genetically gifted cyclist? Neither of those is even plausible, much less true. The only other explanations are that Jim's power meter is malfunctioning, or, as he himself suggested, that his bias contaminated the test results. I suspect the latter, because even someone as admittedly biased as trplay failed to find any evidence backing up Jim's test results. That's a fact I notice you've studiously ignored.

I guess you got me mad making those statements about Jim Parker.

Yes, perhaps a bit less emotion and more clear thinking would be useful.

I suspect 90% or more of the forum can't do 217 watts for 5 minutes. I already told you it took me 10 months to get to that level; it also took me 10 months to top 600 watts for 5 seconds. I am not anemic nor do I smoke or drink as you intimated. I am just average. I worked really, really hard on my anaerobic peak 5 seconds power for months and got it t0 a relatively modest 727 watts.

A "relatively modest 727 watts"? So what you consider "relatively modest" is already 231 watts higher than Jim's test result? Think that over for a second. You are confirming what I said about Jim's numbers being unnaturally low. If we factor in your advanced age compared to his, things look even worse for the case you're trying to make.
 
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trplay

Zen MBB Master
As biased as I am for wanting the push-pull gadget to show a grand jump in power it just isn't happening. Maybe, just maybe a slight increase in power but its to small to differentiate between a legitimate increase or just our inconsistencies in pedal stroke.

Read as much or as little as one would like into the quote above and post here. Some have already gone beyond its meaning. My goal was to ride at a consistent cadence 60/90/105 rpm , monitor the wattage then start the push pull keeping the cadence the same and see what happens. Here's what happens. Heart rate, cadence, power increases. Trying to keep my pedal stroke consistent was basically not doable. I slow down the rpm and you get a huge power drop and then a huge spike when you try to bring it up. I simply cant pedal keeping a steady cadence or wattage to get any meaningful numbers. When Connie tried it was the same yo- yo effect.
 
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