bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
No it is not.DavidCH said:
Road bike vs. recumbent comparison
- Thread starter Osiris
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I think many are not familiar with the steepness of those climbs in the Appalachian mountains. She is holding a great line. I know I can't do that.
Almost full circle now.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
Let me try this one last time. If you want to avoid weaving all over the road, you will have to pull/push the handlebars in such a way that it doesn't result in an imbalance between the steering force generated by pulling the handlebars to one side and the steering force generated by pushing on the pedals. Your advice to just "swing the boom harder" completely ignores this point. You can't swing the boom harder without also pushing harder against the pedals. If you are already pedaling as hard as you can, swinging the boom harder results in nothing more than a front end weave, just as you described above.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
On another note, I've been riding my DF quite a bit recently which has produced some interesting data. My previous impression was that the reason I can generate much more power on the DF than I can on any of my recumbents is largely due to the fact that I can spin the pedals so much faster on a DF. However, a comment from Rojoracing got me curious, so when climbing a familiar segment last weekend, I deliberately kept my cadence down to ~95 rpm, which is about the fastest I can spin up that segment on my V20. The reduction in cadence did reduce my power output, but not enough to erase the big difference in power production between my DF and V20. Clearly I can still produce significantly more power on the DF than on the V20, even at the same cadence. Comparing the V20 to my CA2 and M5 shows approximately the same difference, so it remains a mystery why this is the case.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10527315
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1761025
The following study compared oxygen uptake, HR, and CO2 for upright and supine positions while cycling. Higher VO2 and HR in the upright. The CO2 levels in supine seem to be counter intuitive or paradoxical but the partial pressures are low and might be a factor (perfusion issue).
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjpta/1/1/1_1_13/_pdf
The sympathetic response to CO2 levels is too much detail.
I can't find the study now but younger (under age 44 on average) have less of a CO2 perfusion issue and have much less of a power "loss" in the supine vs. upright position.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
I'll read these tonight when I have more time, but from your comments it sounds like the explanation has to do with cardio and oxygen intake efficiency. But if that's the case, why do enormous disparities in power production show up even in 10 second sprints?
Note: 155 degrees is not so low.......one can extrapolate the curve to estimate what a 15-20 degree seat would cause.......
http://members.home.nl/vd.kraats/recumbent/pedal.html#Total muscle strength
https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1788/1661
As an N=1 data point, my peak power (1-5 seconds) on an upright was 1200-1300 watts, my 5 minute power was 340-380 watts, and FTP 265-285 watts depending on fitness and season. HR during time trials 168-171.
When I first got onto a bent 15 months ago, my peak power was in the horribly anemic 500 watt range, 5 minute power around 200-230 watts, and FTP about 150-160 watts. Much much lower. I could not ride with HR over 120-125 without going into oxygen debt and lactate pain. (I got PP into the low 600 watts before undertaking some very specific training to rectify)
Now my peak power on a bent is just shy of 1000 watts, 5 minute power 320, and FTP is 260 watts in round numbers. So, let's call it 10-15% lower but still working on it. In practical terms, I have set personal all time bests on certain climbs. Once I lose the fat, I suspect all my old upright Personal Bests will fall.
In terms of aerobic cycling efforts (say FTP and below), cardiovascular in general and perfusion in particular are to blame for my improvements and I am not done, yet. I also believe older cyclists adapt to the change in position much slower than younger cyclists. I don't think I have read of an upright cyclist jumping onto a recumbent and making the same measured power and few who can demonstrate that they adapted to a recumbent (youngsters Turner and Perez come to mind) to the extent that they make the same power on a bent as on an upright. I plan to peak twice next year and expect my bent power numbers to get close, very close to my upright numbers. This will mean that it took me two full years to adapt and I do believe bent legs is really a bent lung adaptation issue, not leg muscles.
Just an N = 1 data point. real numbers.
When I first got onto a bent 15 months ago, my peak power was in the horribly anemic 500 watt range, 5 minute power around 200-230 watts, and FTP about 150-160 watts. Much much lower. I could not ride with HR over 120-125 without going into oxygen debt and lactate pain. (I got PP into the low 600 watts before undertaking some very specific training to rectify)
Now my peak power on a bent is just shy of 1000 watts, 5 minute power 320, and FTP is 260 watts in round numbers. So, let's call it 10-15% lower but still working on it. In practical terms, I have set personal all time bests on certain climbs. Once I lose the fat, I suspect all my old upright Personal Bests will fall.
In terms of aerobic cycling efforts (say FTP and below), cardiovascular in general and perfusion in particular are to blame for my improvements and I am not done, yet. I also believe older cyclists adapt to the change in position much slower than younger cyclists. I don't think I have read of an upright cyclist jumping onto a recumbent and making the same measured power and few who can demonstrate that they adapted to a recumbent (youngsters Turner and Perez come to mind) to the extent that they make the same power on a bent as on an upright. I plan to peak twice next year and expect my bent power numbers to get close, very close to my upright numbers. This will mean that it took me two full years to adapt and I do believe bent legs is really a bent lung adaptation issue, not leg muscles.
Just an N = 1 data point. real numbers.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
Some really good stuff in that article. Definitely worth a careful read.
Osiris
Zen MBB Master
My introduction to bents was much the same. The first thing I noticed, once I learned to ride the M5 competently, was that my peak power was a jaw dropping 400 watts less than it had been on my DF. It took nearly a year of riding the M5 exclusively before my peak power numbers had improved significantly, although they never got close to the ~ 1300 watts I could produce on a DF. My best was somewhere in the neighborhood of 1150 watts in a short uphill sprint, and I had to pedal at a furious pace to manage that.
What do you think the effects of age are with respect to anaerobic power? Aside from the few sprints I do on each ride, I've never done any real training. I assumed that being in my late 50's, there wasn't much to hope for, but having seen what even older riders like Kent Polk and John Schlitter can do, I may need to reconsider.
Lower anaerobic power on a bent is probably the mechanics of the angles in the legs to the hip but I do not know......
I have not done much research because my interest is in ultra endurance and randonneuring where sprinting is not much of a benefit and training those energy systems would be counterproductive in general to my objectives.
Some weightlifter friends can't do the same weight and/or reps as when younger, so, i suspect similar reasons as why PP on a bent or other bike is lower as we age. I know I used to be able to fly a golf ball over 320 yards in the air but.......getting old ain't fun. Somehow the fast twitch muscles aren't so fast anymore.
I have not done much research because my interest is in ultra endurance and randonneuring where sprinting is not much of a benefit and training those energy systems would be counterproductive in general to my objectives.
Some weightlifter friends can't do the same weight and/or reps as when younger, so, i suspect similar reasons as why PP on a bent or other bike is lower as we age. I know I used to be able to fly a golf ball over 320 yards in the air but.......getting old ain't fun. Somehow the fast twitch muscles aren't so fast anymore.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Well, I'm 36, was actually 32 when I got into bents. Not a 'strapping young lad', but about close.
Still my experience very closely mimic yours - including estimated FTP and peak/5 minute power (tested on Wattbike/Tacx Neo).
My problem, however, is that BB higher than about 4 inches than the seat gives me foot numbness, and that is actually nerve damage (fortunately, reversible) due to hypoxia. What OTHER systems down below get starved of oxygen and get flooded with CO2? Like, *muscles*?
Ed, what's your knowledge of vascular resistance factors?
Still my experience very closely mimic yours - including estimated FTP and peak/5 minute power (tested on Wattbike/Tacx Neo).
My problem, however, is that BB higher than about 4 inches than the seat gives me foot numbness, and that is actually nerve damage (fortunately, reversible) due to hypoxia. What OTHER systems down below get starved of oxygen and get flooded with CO2? Like, *muscles*?
Ed, what's your knowledge of vascular resistance factors?
Balor
Zen MBB Master
There is some very interesting data that suggest that simply doing a sprint or two *to exhaustion* is actually quite enough for massive benefits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30153194
trplay
Zen MBB Master
And there you have it. During the time you guys have spent in the last hour playing paper racer you could have shown us those good ol day 1300 watts in the Chop. Great race today. Our group didn't win but were awesome as a team. A good group of women participated today (4-5?). Maybe thats why it went so well. If we keep it up like this a win isn't far away. See you next race. Well probably not 
but everyone is invited.
but everyone is invited.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
What you describe is technique for keeping the boom completely straight. If you want to contribute power, you must swing the boom much harder than simply compensating for pedal feedback (by the way, my calculations above ignore that force... so total upper body power output would be lower).
Point is, to prevent overcorrection you must stop the boom from swinging *too much*. That implies dealing with steering intertia and wheel flop - *real* "bane" of MBB bikes. There were some (and very vocal) people that could not manage even *riding* MBB bikes without complicating factors like 'boom swinging'. Those are very real problems and this is not an easy skill unless you have very good kinaestetics or 'cheat' like I did
.Even Rojo, that can 'ride anything on two wheels' claimed 'holding for dear life' when he did his first high speed DHs on Vendetta, and the higher the speed - to more control you must have over the bars, do read the Petterson's article I've linked if you didn't already.
Can you easily ride one-handed? Can you ride no-handed at least a bit? Do you feel totally at control at high speed (40+ mph) DHs?
And there you have it. During the time you guys have spent in the last hour playing paper racer you could have shown us those good ol day 1300 watts in the Chop. Great race today. Our group didn't win but were awesome as a team. A good group of women participated today (4-5?). Maybe thats why it went so well. If we keep it up like this a win isn't far away. See you next race. Well probably not
I just got back from a 2 hour 45 mile ride.....a real one.
Not. I'm in the same boat. Numb toes. Never had this problem on uprights. My numbness is not as bad as when I first started. On a more positive note, GIRD and frequent urination are getting better.
trplay
Zen MBB Master
I just got back from a 2 hour 45 mile ride.....a real one.
Been doing those since 1960. Really over rated IYAM. Todays race could have used more Cruzbikers in the hunt. Not only is it a hoot, it will give you a little extra pep when going back outdoors. Even more extra pep than the push - pull.
Well, recovery rides are needed plus I am tapering for a 12h race coming up.
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