Robert's V20 build

Apollo

Well-Known Member
I'm not familiar with the bar end shifters though they remind me of old school down tube friction shifters. How do they work? Did you swap the left and right cabling so the left now controls your rear derailleur? How do you run the cables?
Bar-end shifters are like the old downtube indexed shifters, i.e., friction shifters but with 'click' positions so you won't get stuck between gears. Cabling normally runs along the bar undernath the tape. You can have bar-end shifters any way you like, swapped or regular (left=front, right=rear).

On my road bike, I have a Kline-like setup with bullhorn bar-ends and inverted brake levers (hoods pointing down), which is why I'm interested in Kline's arrangement he has for his Cruzbikes. I would not have thought of trying this on a recumbent but seeing Kline's variation shows that it can work fine.

I also have the bar-ends swapped on my road bike because I'm right-handed. I prefer to have my left hand do most of the shifting. This enables my right hand to remain on the bar for better control because the shifters are not that close to where the hands are positioned. I wouldn't expect this to matter on a recumbent as much but I'll probably keep the swapped arrangement when I decide to test it out on my Vendetta. I'm used to it after so many years riding bullhorn bar-ends.
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
Abbott, that feeling (logical or not) of my hands about to slide off the drops esp when i hit a rough spot unexpectedly was one of the reasons i decided to try the upside down approach. Overgripping was a problem for me too for the same reasons you said. The same feeling on Bacchetta bars led me to do what you mentioned--i put short mtn bike barends on for support and peace of mind, but those won't fit road bars of course. The other reason was for what i thought would be better ergonomics and that has certainly turned out to be true at least for me.
I have tried to imagine a better custom made bar than using drop bars but after a couple of years running them this way i have decided the off road drops would be hard to improve on. They need to be the off road drops because the shoulder slope and flare is necessary to keep the inner part of the forearm from constantly impinging on the 'reach' part of a road bar which gets uncomfortable after awhile. Will put some pics later to illustrate that and what i will discuss below.
Years of riding trikes opened my mind to having the brake levers upside down.
The first bike i did this on was my Silvio 1.5, but i used brifters which eliminated any cable housing in the grip area. It worked well but as you might surmise i had to shift the RD with my left hand and vice versa. I recabled the brakes to keep the familiar right hand-rear brake left hsnd-front brake. Rewiring the brain to shift RD w left hand etc took once or twice around the block to become second nature but i was not about to risk having the brakes reversed in an emergency stop. I sold that bike to castlerobber; she still runs the bars/brifters that way and i'm sure she won't mind giving you her opinion.
Using brifters would allow you to use mirrors on the bar ends. Agsin, pics later.
I liked the brifters but always wanted to try bar ends so i started experimenting on the Sofrider after selling the Silvio. Went through several iterations before settling on the set up that is now on both the Sofrider and the Vendetta. One of the early setups was exactly what you recalled--old time down-tube friction shifters modified to use as barcons.
So, current set up uses Soma Junebug handlebar, Shimano aero brake levers (they are narrower and easier to wrap neatly than Tektro, SRAM, etc), SRAM return to center bar end shifters (don't pay full price....haunt ebay and pick up new/lightly used for a song). I did switch the shifters right for left and run them backwards for several reasons, again all personal ergonomic preferences. Again, they work flawlessly and take almost no getting used to. SRAM TT bar ends would work well and can be modified to run the cable inside the bar...see ratz' post on that. But i'm sold on R2C. Busch and Miller Cyclestar mirrors on the flats.
Other bars that would work well are the stock Cruzbike bar, Midge on One, Salsa Cowchipper (currently out of stock), Salsa Woodchipper (maybe), Origin 8 Gary bar (would need to be shimmed), Gary OS sweep. Maybe a few others. The Junebug may look wide and overly flared out but once in the cockpit they are just right.
Ok, sorry to be so long winded. Hope that answers your questions; if not just shout. Also see my later pics in The V Chronicles thread.

Other pics next post.
 
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ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
image.jpeg
Nitto road bar with Rivendell Silver bar end shifters (friction shifters made by Dia Compe). Note the shoulder of the bar does not slope 'early' like an off road drop, nor does the grip flare out at all. As you can see, this results in the shoulder of the bar pressing against the inner forearm. Others might not mind this. Other than that the bar worked great.
Friction shifters are in fact very nice, work very well, and have a nice retro vibe going on but in the end i prefer indexed shifting. SRAM, baby, SRAM!
 
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castlerobber

Zen MBB Master
The first bike i did this on was my Silvio 1.5, but i used brifters which eliminated any cable housing in the grip area. It worked well but as you might surmise i had to shift the RD with my left hand and vice versa. I recabled the brakes to keep the familiar right hand-rear brake left hsnd-front brake. Rewiring the brain to shift RD w left hand etc took once or twice around the block to become second nature but i was not about to risk having the brakes reversed in an emergency stop. I sold that bike to castlerobber; she still runs the bars/brifters that way and i'm sure she won't mind giving you her opinion.

I had more difficulty getting used to SRAM DoubleTap brifters than I did to the left/right shifting swap. I'm pleased with both now. I much prefer shifting the FD with my stronger hand. It was a tad strange at first to work the brakes upside down, though easy enough to get used to. The flared bars don't interfere with the wrist/forearm area, as you see in Kline's photos; but if I want to brace one forearm against the bar for stability while I take the other hand off the bars, it's an easy reach. I like the solid grip on the upright portion of the bar.
 
Abbott, that feeling (logical or not) of my hands about to slide off the drops esp when i hit a rough spot unexpectedly was one of the reasons i decided to try the upside down approach. Overgripping was a problem for me too for the same reasons you said. The same feeling on Bacchetta bars led me to do what you mentioned--i put short mtn bike barends on for support and peace of mind, but those won't fit road bars of course. The other reason was for what i thought would be better ergonomics and that has certainly turned out to be true at least for me.
I have tried to imagine a better custom made bar than using drop bars but after a couple of years running them this way i have decided the off road drops would be hard to improve on. They need to be the off road drops because the shoulder slope and flare is necessary to keep the inner part of the forearm from constantly impinging on the 'reach' part of a road bar which gets uncomfortable after awhile. Will put some pics later to illustrate that and what i will discuss below.
Years of riding trikes opened my mind to having the brake levers upside down.
The first bike i did this on was my Silvio 1.5, but i used brifters which eliminated any cable housing in the grip area. It worked well but as you might surmise i had to shift the RD with my left hand and vice versa. I recabled the brakes to keep the familiar right hand-rear brake left hsnd-front brake. Rewiring the brain to shift RD w left hand etc took once or twice around the block to become second nature but i was not about to risk having the brakes reversed in an emergency stop. I sold that bike to castlerobber; she still runs the bars/brifters that way and i'm sure she won't mind giving you her opinion.
Using brifters would allow you to use mirrors on the bar ends. Agsin, pics later.
I liked the brifters but always wanted to try bar ends so i started experimenting on the Sofrider after selling the Silvio. Went through several iterations before settling on the set up that is now on both the Sofrider and the Vendetta. One of the early setups was exactly what you recalled--old time down-tube friction shifters modified to use as barcons.
So, current set up uses Soma Junebug handlebar, Shimano aero brake levers (they are narrower and easier to wrap neatly than Tektro, SRAM, etc), SRAM return to center bar end shifters (don't pay full price....haunt ebay and pick up new/lightly used for a song). I did switch the shifters right for left and run them backwards for several reasons, again all personal ergonomic preferences. Again, they work flawlessly and take almost no getting used to. SRAM TT bar ends would work well and can be modified to run the cable inside the bar...see ratz' post on that. But i'm sold on R2C. Busch and Miller Cyclestar mirrors on the flats.
Other bars that would work well are the stock Cruzbike bar, Midge on One, Salsa Cowchipper (currently out of stock), Salsa Woodchipper (maybe), Origin 8 Gary bar (would need to be shimmed), Gary OS sweep. Maybe a few others. The Junebug may look wide and overly flared out but once in the cockpit they are just right.
Ok, sorry to be so long winded. Hope that answers your questions; if not just shout. Also see my later pics in The V Chronicles thread.

Other pics next post.
When you flip the bars I'm assuming you would need to extend the boom closer to you (compared to downward facing bars) so that you can reach the handles. Is that correct? Does that interfere with your knees?
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
It depends on how your bars are currently mounted. From your profile pic it looks like they are rotated as they often are on Cruzbikes so that your handles point almost but not quite vertically down. If you flip them so the handles point up, and rotate them so the angle of the handles suits you, the distance to the handles from your shoulders will not change. (This new position is of course what gives you a bullhorn-like feel, but imho with better ergonomics.) So the boom will not need to be adjusted.
You might be able to leave your brifters (or brake-only levers) in the same place they are but most likely they will need to be moved a slight bit further round the curve toward the ends of the handles.
As for your knees, the short answer is no, it will not interfere. Would you like the long answer? ;) It may be worth your while if you are contemplating such a change, as a short primer on drop bar anatomy would be helpful in discussing and visualizing this stuff.
More long-windedness, I know. Sorry:D
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
These were taken with my left knee almost as far back in the pedal stroke as it gets. No knee interference with the bars nor the hoods even at the furthest point back. Having short cranks does help that to be the case.

image.jpeg image.jpeg
 
image.jpeg image.jpeg
It depends on how your bars are currently mounted. From your profile pic it looks like they are rotated as they often are on Cruzbikes so that your handles point almost but not quite vertically down. If you flip them so the handles point up, and rotate them so the angle of the handles suits you, the distance to the handles from your shoulders will not change. (This new position is of course what gives you a bullhorn-like feel, but imho with better ergonomics.) So the boom will not need to be adjusted.
You might be able to leave your brifters (or brake-only levers) in the same place they are but most likely they will need to be moved a slight bit further round the curve toward the ends of the handles.
As for your knees, the short answer is no, it will not interfere. Would you like the long answer? ;) It may be worth your while if you are contemplating such a change, as a short primer on drop bar anatomy would be helpful in discussing and visualizing this stuff.
More long-windedness, I know. Sorry:D

I would definitely like the long answer. Here are some images of my current setup.
image.jpeg
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
Are those the bars that come with the Vendetta? If so I have some at home and I will take another look at them tomorrow. I did try them at one point and saw no problem with using them flipped but wound up preferring the Junebug bar.
When trying to visualize them in 'standard' position vs 'flipped' it is indeed counterintuitive to see them as not changing your shoulder-to-handles distance but it doesn't. Again, i will look at the stock bar again tomorrow when i get home to make sure.

In the meantime part of what makes 'the long answer' long (reallllyyy long) is making sure we're all meaning the same thing when talking about drop bar anatomy. Just like with human anatomy, standardized terms make it possible to know what is meant no matter whether a person is upside down, right side up, sideways, or whatever. 'Adducted', 'abducted', 'anterior', 'posterior', 'medial', 'lateral' etc etc always mean the same thing no matter what. Just like referring to the back of one's hand means the non-palm side even if that side is, at the moment, facing the front.

So, with drop bar anatomy, all terms are based partly on the bar being in the classic diamond frame position. Thus, the tops, or the flats...pretty obvious. The flat, or nearly flat part of the bar, at the top on a standard bike. They're still the tops, or the flats, even if i turn the bar upside down and backwards, so that we all know exactly what part of the bar is being referred to.

The corners....the part where the bar turns forward from the flats. It can make a nearly 90degree turn as with a road bar or a lesser turn as with off-road drops, in which case it is referred to as being flared out. Some off-road drops list degrees of flare in the specs. If the corner turn begins very early the bar can be said to have 'sloped shoulders'.

The ramps....the part that goes forward after the corners and proceeds to the area where the hoods are mounted. The degree of slope of the ramps varies from bar to bar and is sometimes listed in the specs. If the corners are flared, the ramps are flared too.

Reach....the distance from the tops to the hoods, OR to the most forward part of the bar before it curves back towards the rear of the bike. Measurement taken perpendicular to the tops. It is a distance, not a part.

Hooks....the curve where the bar transitions from going forward (the ramps) to going backwards (the drops).

Drops.....the straight part of the bar at the bottom that runs parallel (or nearly so) to the top tube. If it does not run parallel, as with off-road drops, it also is referred to as flared, and degrees of flare are often listed. AKA the handles.

The drop.....another distance. Not a part. The distance from the tops down to the drops.

Ok :p:D:cool:. Picky and pedantic, for sure. But reasonably precise and standard.

Why is that useful? Let's answer your question about the boom, and about knee clearance.

"When you flip the bars I'm assuming you would need to extend the boom closer to you (compared to downward facing bars) so that you can reach the handles. Is that correct? Does that interfere with your knees?"

If you keep the shoulder to tops distance the same, your shoulder to handles distance (effective reach) will be constant whether the bar is upside down or right side up, so long as the handles themselves are at the same angle from vertical. Turning the bars upside down doesn't change the drop distance which is the only potential variable in determining your effective reach since your handles were nearly vertical (downward facing) to start with. Now they will become nearly vertical in the other direction, but your drop distance will stay the same. Your ramps will stay the same relative to the tops but pointing down, not up. So you should not need to move the slider.

(Your hands might be higher but not a lot; in fact they won't be any higher than they were if you are one who held on to the hoods at least some of the time. I did that a lot before and liked it; now the bar ends let me put my hands at that height or lower at my pleasure, and with better ergonomics.)

If your bars were set so that the drops/handles were more horizontal to start with, flipping the bars would indeed make a difference in your effective reach and you would need to adjust the slider.

Knee clearance will be unaffected because it is determined by where you set the tops with the slider/boom combo. Since you won't be changing that, if you had no knee clearance problem before, you won't after flipping the bars. True, your hoods will extend below the hooks, which are now the part of your bars closest to the ground, but they won't be much lower than the ends of the drops used to be (especially if you were using bar end mirrors) and in any event are well to the outside of knee/leg motion anyway.

So that's the long (long, long,) answer.

The short answers remain the same: no, no, and no. ;):);)

Editor's note (and I'm the flippin editor!): I'm at work with nothing much to do at the moment so writing all this out is helping to pass the time. It can get busier than busy in a New York minute but for now it's quiet.
Yes, I'm a little stir-crazy
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
Looking at your pics again I notice I did not account for your cables/housing being the type that does not run under the bar tape. That may affect your knee clearance (with the housings only, not the bar) if you flip. Probably you could route them where they wouldn't interfere w your legs.
Another thing, this is not a quick and easy project. It's actually a fair bit of work unless you're doing it from scratch anyway. I've done the 'conversion' several times and it ain't easy but the benefits made me forget how much work it was. It was a pain but well worth it in my book. I set it up this way to start with on the V because of all my experimenting on the other bikes.
 

ReklinedRider

Zen MBB Master
Abbott, got home and did a mock up using the stock CB bar. Flipped or unflipped, the shoulder-to-handle distance remains the same, as does the hand height. Best of luck whatever route you take,
KM
 
Here is my take on the CF issue:

In my experience talking to some different carbon manufacturers, reproducing a V frame in CF will result in a heavier bike overall, that would be more fragile, and have a harsher ride. My V1 has the original welded seat on it and is around 5 lbs or so. The current V20 frame - which is very very close to the older version minus the welded seat - is 3.7 lbs.

I highly doubt that the V20 can be reproduced to be a 3.7 lb CF frame that would hold any weight.
I would love to reproduce the V in Titanium. I was also thinking how much weight could be saved by building it to size instead of adjustable. You could make it in one piece with welds instead of tube clamps and excess tube.
 

Dave Arnold

Active Member
That wide range is a bit on the extreme side, but I rode it last year to test the shifting of the OneUp. IMHO anything less than 1:1 and you really just need to be riding more hills to build strength as the front end becomes unstable.

The cyclestar mirrors I got from Calhoun Cycles. They are hard to come by but in my opinion is the most awesome mirror out there. Real glass without a lot of curve and distortion. Since I ride in Portland traffic and through downtown a lot I want to see and see clearly. If you remove the stalk mount you can pop the mirror straight into the part that attaches to the bar for a clean look.

Robert--

I bought a pair of the Cycle Star mirrors. The instructions didn't mention pulling the stalk out of the mirror. How did you do it? Do I just pull hard until it comes out? I hope I don't break it.

Thanks,

Dave Arnold
Anacortes, WA
 

Robert Holler

Administrator
Staff member
Dave,

It takes a bit of pressure but yes you can just at an angle leverage out the stalk. That way you can pop it right onto the mount for the bar.

Just be careful not to break the glass.

Robert
 
I would love to reproduce the V in Titanium. I was also thinking how much weight could be saved by building it to size instead of adjustable. You could make it in one piece with welds instead of tube clamps and excess tube.

I was thinking the same thing and could not agree with this more. I have two DF titanium bikes from that well known bicycle manufacturer in North Carolina that made its name in titanium frames. Seeing what they can do, a Vendetta in titanium would be a work of art and entirely feasible. For one thing, a titanium frame would get rid of the clunky alum welds. The titanium welds from this company are a thing of beauty onto themselves. Both of my frames have the polished bare metal finish with very minimal decals, incredibly beautiful just to look at. No need to worry at all with corrosion in titanium. In addition I am sure there would be a substantial savings of weight in going over to titanium. I mean, does Cruzbike intend to make the V in aluminum forever? What is next evolutionary step?
 

Dave Arnold

Active Member
Titanium would be nice as long as we don't lose any stiffness for power transfer, but I don't think titanium is required for cleaner welds. If I'm not mistaken, Cannondale has made aluminum frames with clean welds--I think they must grind/clean/polish the welds before finishing.
Maybe include grind/clean/polish the welds as part of the hand painted option for an additional cost.
Maybe titanium would be a good material for the headrest rails/tubes.

Other refinements I would like to see are:
1) Internally routed cabling everywhere.
2) Move rear-brake cable location slightly to better enable moving caliper to top location for most calipers.
 
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