Schlumpf

[David Callow]

Currently considering a Vendetta. There are no U.K. dealers for the Cruzbike so I will have to travel to the French dealer near Grenoble for a test ride in the New Year.
As a current Bacchetta Giro rider (converted to 24" x 700c) with a Schlumpf Mountain Drive I am not keen to return to a front derailleur.
Is there any reason why a Schlumpf cannot be fitted to the bottom bracket of a Vendetta?

 

[Charles.Plager]

Hi David,
I dunno, but while

Hi David,

I dunno, but while you're waiting for somebody who knows to answer, here's a thread about a Vendetta with a Rohloff.

Cheers,
Charles

 

[Eric Winn]

I've wondered about the shift

I've wondered about the shift motion of tapping with your heel at the end of the long, weighted lever arm of the front MBB triangle.

Would that be tap steer as opposed to pedal steer?

I have researched the Schlumpf a bit but have never used/tried one. How hard to you have to tap the shift button to engage it one way or the other?

-Eric

 

[David Callow]

I use Schlumpf on both my Bacchetta and a Koga Founder S folder. It's brilliant and you only need to give it a light tap from either side to change up and down. Surprisingly, you don't seem to knock it accidentally. Great for hill starts on a recumbent when you forgot to change down to a lower gear before you stopped! Click whilst stationary and you're straight into your bottom range.
If there is a loss of efficiency in the drive system I guess I'm not sensitive enough to detect it. Weight difference to a triple FD? 173g - see here:-http://www.pbwbikes.com/SchlumpfDura-AceWeightComparison/P1060430%20-%20SHSD%20Weight.html


I use a 56 tooth chainring for good top speed and yet, with a 772% range I can pedal right down to my stall speed of around 3.4mph on a really, really steep hill.

 

[David Callow]

Pedal induced steering

I'll have to wait for my Vendetta demo. but I'm convinced that you get some pedal induced steering on a RWD recumbent as well. For example, as mentioned above, my stall speed is 3.4mph on a steep hill. However, I can travel at around 2mph (or less) on the flat without stalling. The difference being the amount of pressure being applied to the pedals. On a steep hill at 3.4 mph I'm starting to weave pretty seriously!

My decision to test the Vendetta was based on Paul Worden's review where he claimed it to be the best climbing recumbent. Since he had been pretty effusive about the Metaphysic a year or so earlier I can only presume that he found something which was a fairly dramatic improvement in the Vendetta!

Roll on for my visit to Cycles Bentoline near Grenoble!

 

[Peder Torgersen]

I'm also a dealer with a

I'm also a dealer with a Vendetta but I'm located in Grimstad Norway.
Grimstad is 50 km east of Kristiansand which has a ferry connection to Denmark and they also have an airport.
I suppose it's easier to travel to France than to Norway.

One reason for answering here is about test riding it will take some considerable time before you feel comfortable riding a Vendetta.
Some people learn faster than others.
How long will you be able to stay in France for test riding?

 

[David Callow]

Hi Peder, It's relatively

Hi Peder, It's relatively easy for me to fly to Oslo (cheap Ryanair flights). It's also cheap for me to stay there as my son lives there (my daughter-in-law is Norwegian). However, you seem to be some way from Oslo (280km). If I test ride a Vendetta I would probably take a week off to have multiple days of test riding. Regards, Dave

 

[Eric Winn]

Schlumpf HSD info

Ref: http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/en/products/schlumpf-drive/schlumpf-high-speed-drive.html

According to the manual, the standard Schlumpf HSD can be installed in frames with BSA bottom brackets (BBs) with an inner diameter of 33.6 to 34mm, width can be 67.5 to 73mm wide. They also state that for aluminum BBs, the shell wall thickness must be at least 3mm.

The edges of the BB have to chamfered to 45 degrees where a conical washer fits into the chamfer and the Schlumpf HSD unit is essential torqued down via a nut on the left side of the BB at 140-160Nm (100-115 ftlbs). It does not use the BB threads. The 45 degree bevel must be carefully milled/cut such that the outer diameter must be between 39.5 and 40.0mm. The bevel is claimed to not be a problem if you want to restore your original BB assembly after removing the Schlumpf.

Also from their manual: The high-speed-drive housing made of aluminum is designed for steel frames. For the installation into an aluminum frame, we deliver a special Loctite product.

The bevel and conical washer along with the unit torque settings result in a friction based fit that counters the torque of the planetary system. Note the first troubleshooting step is Gear housing is slipping under load in high gear where the possible causes are listed below - e.g. installation instructions need to be followed carefully!

• 
  The bottom bracket wasn't chamfered correctly to the diameter given in our installation instructions (outer diameter of the conical part has to be between 39.5 and 40mm).
• 
  The cone area wasn't completely clean and dry.
• 
  The nut on the left side wasn't tightened with the appropriate torque (140- 160Nm / 100-115 lb ft).
• 
  You didn't use our Loctite compound for an installation into aluminum frame.

They do offer an option for a 10mm wider axle if you have a wider BB than 73mm.

They also make this important disclaimer:
With the conical shape of the housing, you can't clamp any parts (trouser guard, chain holders, etc.) between gear housing and b.b. shell.

The above sounds like the Vendetta's chainstay clamps may pose a problem.

-Eric

 

[David Callow]

Thanks Eric. When Florian

Thanks Eric. When Florian Schlumpf was running the company they were a fairly innovative organisation (and had workarounds for most situations). Florian Schlumpf sold this business to haberstock-mobility at the end of 2011. This company now carries out the manufacturing. I've emailed them to see if they can come up with a solution.
Incidentally, what is the width of the chainstay clamps? From the pictures I'm guessing about 6-7mm. Both of my Mountain Drive installations have used the countersunk BB (rather than the torque lever). Regards, Dave.

 

[David Callow]

Cones

As an additional thought, if Haberstock suggest the use of the torque lever rather than the countersinking process (and they will sanction the use of spacers equivalent to the width of the chainstay clamp...................!).

 

[Eric Winn]

Hi Dave,
I don't have any of

Hi Dave,

I don't have any of the Vendetta measurements, still waiting on my V. I looked through the assembly manual and technical notes but didn't see specific measures for the BB.

I also looked through the forums at fthills build photos and some other forum references but didn't find any precise data so you'll need something definitive from John or Doug.

-Eric

 

[David Callow]

Torque Lever

Hi Eric and Charles,
Reading carefully through the manual (again!) it does seem that there is nothing to preclude the use of spacers if you use the torque lever method of installation (as opposed to cones). Provided the internal and external diameters of the spacers are suitable and the spacer is of an appropriate width for the chainstay clamps it may be possible.

It would probably require a slightly longer BB axle (which Schlumpf/Haberstock can supply).

I've also e-mailed a guy called Ben Cooper at Kinetics in Scotland who has fitted my mountain drives. He has come up with solutions to numerous problems in the past and is an excellent engineer across a range of disciplines. If anyone can work out a solution it would be him. However, Hogmanay is almost upon us and I don't expect him to surface again until after the start of the New Year. They take it all very seriously up North in the porridge and haggis eating community!

Sorry if I've become a bit obsessive about the whole Schlumpf thing, but after 18,000+ miles (and no problems with them), I can't see me going back to an FD!

 

[Peder Torgersen]

Hi David,
Grimstad is about

Hi David,

Grimstad is about 280 km from Oslo as you mentioned so testing a Vendetta might not be so practical.

We have not sold any Vendettas in Norway but we hope to sell some.
We have sold other recumbents in the Oslo area and some of the customers have let others come and see and test ride.
We usually ask our customers in different parts of the country if they will let others come for a test ride some are very happy to do that and it makes traveling easier for customers.

I have the large frame I'm 1.84 cm tall which is about 6 feet. My X-seam is 1120 mm.
The frame will fit larger riders than me but shorter riders will have difficulty riding this Vendetta.
I have Sram Force on my Vendetta it does climb very well and it's the best climbing recumbent I have experienced. It's also fast on the flat sections. I also found the Vendetta to be very comfortable for me.
The Vendetta has a very stiff BB with it's unique construction if a Schlumpf will fit will be interesting to find out.

Since you are planning on using a week you should get a reasonable impression if a Vendetta is a recumbent you would like to get.

Here is some information about Grimstad.
http://www.visitgrimstad.com/en/

Bicycle riding is very popular here I go on training trips with club members and I'm not a member but they also let others join them.
We got plenty of hills here but now we have snow and ice on the roads.
I took some pictures of the Vendetta to show the amount of snow we got here now.
Sometimes winter isn't too long here and when the roads clear up and it gets warmer the Vendetta can ride the roads here again.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sykkel-bent/sets/72157632365011210/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sykkel-bent/sets/72157630975551608/

 

[David Callow]

Vendetta in Norway

Hi Peder,
Thanks for the photos and info. (it's interesting that you also ride a unicycle, as does my son - must be a Norwegian thing!). Even with the test ride in Grenoble there may be a problem with snow as it is a ski-ing resort. I am exactly 6 feet tall so test riding your Vendetta shouldn't be a problem.
Even with the Bacchetta I managed to climb the passes on the Ring of Kerry in Ireland (this was before I converted the Bacchetta to 24"x 700c). See here:- www.grandadsbikeride.com

 

[Eric Winn]

Dave,
Your ride across the

Dave,

Your ride across the old Severn Bridge into Wales looks like a lot of fun, along with the rest of your barnstorming around SW Ireland.

I lived in the UK for 3 years (late 88 to late 91) but never made it over to Ireland but I have driven across that bridge.

All - check out the pedestrian/bike path across the bridge that Dave took:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/articles/2008/04/17/places_severn_bridge_feature.shtml

Where was the steepest grade on your trip and what is your smallest gain ratio or gear inches with your Schlumpf and whatever cassette you have on the back of your Bachetta?

-Eric

 

[David Callow]

Schlumpf and cassette

Hi Eric,
11-34 Cassette, lowest gear 16.6 inches (1.3 metric). This was all with the old 26" (559) wheel. Now with the 700c it's 17.7 and 1.4. Can't say I notice the higher gear but it's good on the downhill with the 56T and 11 on the back. Managed to hit 45mph (still pedalling) before my nerve ran out. Not too bad for an old b*****d! Passed a couple of triathlon guys on that run down, too. Probably p****d them off (well, let's hope so! - sorry, is that not very PC?).
I really don't know the gradients, but some of the mid twenty year olds on mountain bikes were amazed that I made it. The shot downhill on the website (with the hairpins) doesn't do it justice. It looked much worse going up! It all seemed as if the next pedal stroke was going to be my last (but fortunately I made it non-stop). Didn't set any speed records but I don't think I could have pushed the bike up the hill at 3.4mph plus!
There were about three major passes that we went over (on different days, fortunately) and there wasn't much to choose between them for severity.
I'll be really interested to see how I get on with the Vendetta in France (or Norway perhaps, Peder?).
I really think (and hope) that the pedal steering effect may not be the issue that some of us worry about. I worried a lot about going from DF to recumbent, but after a few wobbles I was O.K. Similarly going from Superman bars (open cockpit?) to tiller steering was a concern, but it didn't take too long when it came to it. I think over analysing it in advance doesn't do any good. I like the idea that someone mentioned on this forum about looking ahead to where you want to go (rather than studying your hands and feet too closely). We'll have to see if I c**k it all up when I jump on the Vendetta though!
Interesting that you were in the UK in 88-91 as I was in the States (So Cal) for about 12 years (84 to late 95).

 

[Kim Tolhurst]

Just to Mention

........... The Vendetta 1.5 mentioned in this thread reviewed by Paul Worden is the same one as advertised FOR SALE on this Forum.
cheers,
Kim.

 

[David Callow]

Schlumpf Mountain Drive

Finally had a chat with Ben Cooper today (http://www.kinetics.org.uk/). He has checked the dimensions om my rough picture and believes that it is entirely possible to fit the Schlumpf to a Vendetta, if one uses the Torque Lever style of installation.

 

[BentBierz]

Hi David...I'm currently in

Hi David...I'm currently in the research-and-component-ordering phase of my Silvio 2.0 build and a Schlumpf on a Silvio intrigues me. I have a Schlumpf drive on my trike (wife's trike also) and would never use anything else on them...love them!

I'm curious if you ended up using a Schlumpf on the Vendetta and, if so, did you use the torque lever? Also, did your research determine that the torque lever was required or just a the preferred set-up?

 

[David Callow]

Torque Lever

Still waiting to test. Hoping to get over to Norway soon.
I'm assured by Ben Cooper of Kinetics that it's all possible with a torque lever installation. Spacers would be required (the same external diameter as the bottom bracket clamps).
Have a chat to Ben (http://www.kinetics.org.uk/) but phone him, as he rarely responds to e-mails!