Silvio seat

[Tolderol]

Hmmm. Tolderol, you're discussing two variables (the bike and the seat angle) and then complaining about one (the bike) when your issue is the other (the seat angle).

From what you are saying you both prefer, and are much more comfortable on, a very upright seat. Great, at least you know that. Dissing the product because it doesn't deliver on the seat angle you prefer seems inappropriate to me. Go find a product that delivers what you want.

BTW. I don't buy your line that 27 degrees is a deeply reclined seat. I rode that angle for years on my rwd recumbent after coming from dfs, and imho it is the sweet-spot between aerodynamics, comfort and all round useability.

I suspect seat angles, like many things, are subject to a distribution curve. Based on my own experience, and observing discussions on BROL for the last 10 years, it seems to me that a small handful of people love deeply reclined seats (sub 20 degrees), a small handful of people (like you) love upright seats (30 degrees +), but most people prefer the goldilocks sweet spot in the 23 - 27 degree range. The Vendetta is for the first group, and the Silvio is for the latter. It would be great for Cruzbike to provide an option for people like you as well, but only time will tell if the Falcon will come to pass.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

Kind regards...

Cruz made that seat angle and stopped. Why? We've seen there's demand for it. I've spoken to people who ride with towels rolled up behind their heads on a $5K bike. They find the seat too "deeply reclined". And it's not just the seat angle itself, it's what they've done to the neck angle in particular on the 3.0. As far as I know there is only one "front-wheel drive" recumbent on the market. Hard to find another one.

But there's a pack mentality here, I'm wasting my breath.

 

[super slim]

look at this link of Rick's adjustable seat angle, so you can have ANY seat angle that you desire, AND have the stiffest power triangle of ANY recumbent!!!

http://cruzbike.com/forum/threads/my-adjustable-seat-testing.8060/

 

[Tolderol]

Thank you very much for that link.

Actually, the experiment, the results and the long discussion on the forum rather prove my point. Or my several points. The Silvio seat design is off, it is not the optimum design for most riders in most situations - only long-haul riding - and there is demand for an alternative. And this was the Silvio 2; the Silvio 3 looks worse.

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

Tolderol, I ride a Vendetta and was concerned about the extreme seat angle at first because it "looks" extremely uncomfortable. I actually changed to a different seat, but that's because of vibration, and I still have roughly the same seat angle. After riding hundreds of miles this year, I can say I am pleasantly surprised in how comfortable the fully-reclined position is on my neck. I have absolutely no neck pain whatsoever while riding non-stop for hours on end.

 

[Tolderol]

It's not just comfort, it's your view of the road ahead. And sure there will be people who find it comfortable, of course. But there seem to be enough people who don't to make one wonder.

 

[Abbott Smith]

I bought a Vendetta V20. I love it. But make no mistake it is very different. You have to be willing to commit to learning to ride a bike again. The Center of Gravity is different. The seat angle is different. The power transfer is different. The speed is different. The handling characteristics are different. You use very different muscle groups. You have to learn to ride a different style of tempo. And you have to trust the geometry. The bike is designed to be ridden in a reclined position. Fighting that design will cause pain and discomfort.

I came off two RWD bents. I rode a Rans VRex Above SS & a Vision R40 USS. Learning to trust the seat angle on the Vendetta took a few rides. Yesterday I was struck by how quickly I reached the fully reclined position. I've been riding a month and I'm already adapting to the point that it doesn't seem deeply reclined any more.

Another aspect of the equation is dialing in the fit. I bought a frame and we built it. I'm still tweaking the spacing. This bike is different. You can't run down to the LBS and ask them to fix the fit. You have to do it. If you get it wrong, you will have chronic pain. Which is just like any other bike.

This bike is not for everyone. If you look at the geometry and say that it won't work, then you are right. It won't work for you. You will fight it and in so doing will be disappointed in your investment. But for those of us who trust the design, the rewards are worth the hassle of learning to ride from scratch again.

One final comment, the design has been continually dialed toward a specific type of riding experience. The Cruzbikes serve a niche. You don't sound like it's your niche. That's fine. This forum is by definition a group of people reveling in the Cruzbike niche. You came to the land of Cruzbike disciples and seem shocked that we're singing the praises of a bike that serves our needs. We like our bikes. This forum is designed as a community for us to share our triumphs, tribulations and experimentation. You asked and we're sharing them with you. Mine that knowledge as it suits your needs but please respect our right to have different objectives and opinions.

 

[Tolderol]

I wonder if Cruzbike would endorse your view that every buyer has to be a mechanic and set up the geometry of the bike themselves to fit. I didn't see that mentioned anywhere on the website pitching their bikes to the public. And, if your view is correct, that chronic pain will as you say result if they aren't and don't.

It is also a niche that has changed, at least with respect to the Silvio. And this brings me back to my original point: back in the not so distant days of the Silvio 1 - 1.5, there seemed to be three (or four?) target markets: racers for the Vendetta, road bikers for the Silvio - see the road ahead, but on a high-performance road bike - and commuters for the Quest (the Quest for example, with the upright seat, weighs almost exactly the same as my much larger Rans V2, which has better quality components on it, so buying a Quest is not a very attractive option).

Now the road bike part of the equation, as most people would define it, has quite simply disappeared.

 

[Abbott Smith]

There are places you can go and get the bike fitted. Rose City Recumbents in Portland, OR being one excellent example. But this community is small and the geometry is different. The number of service options is limited.

Furthermore anyone who buys just a bike frame like I did enters an implied contract placing the onus of fit squarely on their own shoulders. I'm not mechanically inclined, but I have a friend who is and with his help felt comfortable taking on that responsibility.

I bought my Vendetta as a road bike not a racer. I felt more comfortable with the V20 center of gravity than the Silvio. I test rode an older Silvio, the S30, the V 2.0 and the V20 before I made my purchase. It works for me as a road bike. Specifically I wanted a bent that I could ride in groups of DFs. The V20 gives me a bent that handles tempo changes and hill grade changes better. It uses standard components and it's a damn sight faster than anything I've ever ridden. Works for me.

I get your beef. The company went in a different direction than you were hoping they would. It happens. I'd like Tesla to make an entry level vehicle. I think there would be a market. But limited resources are limited. Cruzbike picked their current niche and you are left with a choice. Live with what is available or go in a different direction. I invested my money and I am thrilled with my investment. The bike is performing how I hoped that it would.

 

[Cruzbike Chris]

Well said Abbott, I completely agree with your comments altogether. Furthmore, if Cruzbike didn't think you should be a somewhat bike mechanic/enthusiast or knew someone that was, whom you could trust, they probably wouldn't be selling frame sets......my 2 cents.

 

[Tolderol]

Correction: They're not going in a different direction than I was hoping they would. They are going in a different direction than they were already going. Without drawing adequate attention to the different direction and its importance for an everyday rider - the kind who sells the bike with less than 1,000 miles on it. There's a big difference between what has happened and your description of it. I think the changes to the Silvio are major enough that they should have renamed the bike and stopped selling it as a road bike. It's not a road bike.

 

[Tolderol]

By the way, you two agree but you're saying different things.

"There are places you can go and get the bike fitted. Rose City Recumbents in Portland, OR being one excellent example. But this community is small and the geometry is different. The number of service options is limited.".

"Furthmore, if Cruzbike didn't think you should be a somewhat bike mechanic/enthusiast or knew someone that was, whom you could trust, they probably wouldn't be selling frame sets".

Which is it? A bike enthusiast can put it together, or the service options are limited (to a store in Portland, 4,000 miles from me)? Once again, does Cruzbike agree that the service options for their bikes are limited? Yes, anyone buying just a frameset (I would buy a built-up bike, knowing my limitations) should know their way around the mechanics a little. But can they build it themselves on that basis as one of you says or are the fitting options as limited as the other of you says? If the latter, this should be clear on the company website, that you shouldn't count on being able to adjust the fit on the basis of your own basic mechanical aptitude or the services of your local bike store, which has probably never seen a Cruzbike.

 

[Rick Youngblood]

the kind who sells the bike with less than 1,000 miles on it.

I see this happen with other recumbent manufacturers as well because the bike just didn't work out. I've seen Metabike's sold with under 1000 miles because the rider was not able to get a feel for it . It's a great bike too, I know, I've owned one .

 

[battleaxe0]

Correction: They're not going in a different direction than I was hoping they would. They are going in a different direction than they were already going. Without drawing adequate attention to the different direction and its importance for an everyday rider - the kind who sells the bike with less than 1,000 miles on it. There's a big difference between what has happened and your description of it. I think the changes to the Silvio are major enough that they should have renamed the bike and stopped selling it as a road bike. It's not a road bike.

I sold my Raleigh Revenio with a bit over 1100 miles on it - wrist pain. Bought a Trek CF Domane that was supposedly the best bike on the market for wrist pain (according to the bike shop) because it has a more upright position to reduce the weight on your wrists - sold it after only 660 miles and multiple tries at getting fit on it. Bought the Silvio S30 - 172 miles so far - not quite used to it yet but no pains and more speed than I could wring out of the 19 pound Trek. How is it not a roadbike?

 

[Abbott Smith]

By the way, you two agree but you're saying different things.

"There are places you can go and get the bike fitted. Rose City Recumbents in Portland, OR being one excellent example. But this community is small and the geometry is different. The number of service options is limited.".

"Furthmore, if Cruzbike didn't think you should be a somewhat bike mechanic/enthusiast or knew someone that was, whom you could trust, they probably wouldn't be selling frame sets".

Which is it? A bike enthusiast can put it together, or the service options are limited (to a store in Portland, 4,000 miles from me)? Once again, does Cruzbike agree that the service options for their bikes are limited? Yes, anyone buying just a frameset (I would buy a built-up bike, knowing my limitations) should know their way around the mechanics a little. But can they build it themselves on that basis as one of you says or are the fitting options as limited as the other of you says? If the latter, this should be clear on the company website, that you shouldn't count on being able to adjust the fit on the basis of your own basic mechanical aptitude or the services of your local bike store, which has probably never seen a Cruzbike.

Fit and service are not the same thing either. Fit is a subset of service. Any competent bike mechanic can service the running parts of the bike. They are standard road components. Fit is more specialized and done more long distance.

You can buy the bike preassembled or as a frame. If you buy it preassembled you will get a stock bike and Cruzbike will help you fit it via long distance communication unless other arrangements can be made. They do not sell their bikes through a large network of dealers, which I suspect you already know.

The Silvio is a road bike. So is the Vendetta. The distinction that you are making is that the Silvio isn't the type of road bike that you want. Forget all the silliness about the naming of the bike and whether the company has a right to decide which direction they want to evolve. At the end of this rant, you don't like the new Silvio. We get it. We understand why. Time for everyone just move on.

 

[mzweili]

I believe that with this tread we run into a similar situation as we lived once in November 2013 with a member called pRC from Raleigh, NC. He drove John T. nuts until he gave his final answer (read John T. Nov.9 2013)

 

[JOSEPHWEISSERT]

It's not just comfort, it's your view of the road ahead.

If you are assuming that the view of the "road ahead" is not good, then I can testify that my view ahead is great. And this is on the most extreme bike (Vendetta). No, my face is not pointing somewhat downward at the ground as with a DF. Instead, it is pointing straight ahead. This is very important when traveling at 30+ mph. So, in my own experience, there is no problem with the view of the road ahead at all, if I am understanding you correctly (please excuse me if I have misunderstood your meaning).

 

[Tolderol]

Indeed this is one of the problems with DF, you look down and not ahead.

But by "the road ahead" I also meant "the stuff around you". Many people have remarked, some on this thread I believe, that if you ever do something like enter an intersection with a seat like this you have to sit up if you want to look around for cross traffic and stuff like that. Of course you can see the road ahead on your Vendetta. But you don't get much of a wide-angle view. It's like the way driving a pick-up truck is a lot better to see what's happening on the road ahead and to the side of you then being down low in a sports car.

 

[Tolderol]

"I sold my Raleigh Revenio with a bit over 1100 miles on it - wrist pain. Bought a Trek CF Domane that was supposedly the best bike on the market for wrist pain (according to the bike shop) because it has a more upright position to reduce the weight on your wrists - sold it after only 660 miles and multiple tries at getting fit on it. Bought the Silvio S30 - 172 miles so far - not quite used to it yet but no pains and more speed than I could wring out of the 19 pound Trek. How is it not a roadbike?"

You went from one DF to another because of wrist pain and still experienced wrist pain? Well, yeah. And now the Silvio gives you no wrist pain? Of course not. No more than driving a car given the recumbent position.

It's not a road bike because, as someone above mentioned, it's become some sort of high-performance endurance bike, which is not what a road bike is. A road bike should give you a clear view of things in front and to the side, to start.

I just looked at the blurb for the Silvio on this site on the products page. It's distinctively different than it was a couple of years ago, clearly being marketed to some sort of hard-core push yourself to the limits market. If that's what Cruz's marketing is telling them the market for this is, great. But a road bike is not a push yourself to the limit endurance bike, sorry.

 

[Tolderol]

"Time for everyone just move on."

No one is forcing you to participate in this discussion or read the thread.

 

[ratz]

I believe that with this tread we run into a similar situation as we lived once in November 2013 with a member called pRC from Raleigh, NC. He drove John T. nuts until he gave his final answer (read John T. Nov.9 2013)

Except on this new forum software we have an "ignore" function and the silence is bliss. Come on in an join me I have productive things to do and so do the rest of us I suspect.