Steering damper/stabilizer

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
Should probably be "crank" instead of "cramp," looking at the context
Right! I should have got that. I'm running a 165 mm crank length. They were the shortest cranks I could find for the Ultegra 6800 group set. I was keeping it all Ultegra to prevent any incompatibilities that would complicate the build. I'm not opposed to using mixed sets as long as I know they are compatible from the start. Q-Rings sound interesting.
 

Apollo

Well-Known Member
Right! I should have got that. I'm running a 165 mm crank length. They were the shortest cranks I could find for the Ultegra 6800 group set. I was keeping it all Ultegra to prevent any incompatibilities that would complicate the build. I'm not opposed to using mixed sets as long as I know they are compatible from the start. Q-Rings sound interesting.
Q-rings will even out the pedal stroke and that might reduce pedal steer. Most if not all of the consistent Cruzbike race champions over the past several years use them. So, you benefit from better stability and efficiency for superior performance in most cases. Win/win.

Unfortunately, the new Shimano crankset generations use an offset crank bolt pattern that is not conducive for optimal chainring alignment on recumbents. (Why couldn't Shimano have just decided on one of the symmetrical MTB BCDs if they wanted 4 bolts for their road groups?) I do not think that you will be able to use a Q-ring with Ultegra 6800 crank to adjust for proper alignment, but I'll let Ratz confirm and elaborate on this topic because he has much deeper knowledge on Q-ring and crank optimization for Cruzbikes.

Regarding crank length, 165mm is the shortest Shimano makes for any of their groupsets, AFAIK, so you're out of luck if you want shorter from Shimano. Shortening your Ultegra 6800 is also out of the question because it's a hollow crank arm design. Mixing cranks on a bike with components predominantly from another manufacturer is rarely an issue. The pros often have different cranks on their bikes.

In conclusion, what the other posters are probably advising is a shorter crankset in the neighborhood of 145-155mm combined with a non-round chainring could help your situation and make for a more ergonomic fit to boot. I doubt it would hurt, except in the pocketbook knowing the cost of my Q-rings.
 
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Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
Q-rings will even out the pedal stroke and that might reduce pedal steer. Most if not all of the consistent Cruzbike race champions over the past several years use them. So, you benefit from better stability and efficiency for superior performance in most cases. Win/win.
Wish I would have known this before but better late than never. Maybe I can sell my crank set on ebay. I have so much invested in the bike already that there's no way I'm going to put up with issues that can be fixed or improved with a component choice. If I go with a shorter crank arm, should I compensate by increasing the number of chain ring teeth? I'm at 50-34; say a 36-52? The freewheel is 11 speed 11-32. I already think I have too many low gears and not enough high gears. At this point, I'm ready to go with whatever the flock is using.
 

Apollo

Well-Known Member
Wish I would have known this before but better late than never. Maybe I can sell my crank set on ebay. I have so much invested in the bike already that there's no way I'm going to put up with issues that can be fixed or improved with a component choice. If I go with a shorter crank arm, should I compensate by increasing the number of chain ring teeth? I'm at 50-34; say a 36-52? The freewheel is 11 speed 11-32. I already think I have too many low gears and not enough high gears. At this point, I'm ready to go with whatever the flock is using.
If price is an issue, you can avoid splurging on Q-rings and just go with a shorter crank for now. Super slim's recommendation is a very good one and the link he provided will get you started.

Regarding gearing: every rider is so different from another and the areas ridden vary so much that it's hard to give proper advice. In general, shorter cranks are equivalent to increasing gear (shorter distance traveled=smaller arc=larger diameter ring) and do not think you will need larger chainrings unless you are finding that you're spinning out frequently with the gearing you have presently. 52-36 from 50-34 is not a huge jump but the cranks will be shorter, and you might need to take that into account. If you decide on Q-rings at a later time, you can always increase the number of teeth then. I found that Q-rings were easier to push in larger sizes due to the much improved pedal stroke, but that is not necessarily the case for everyone and you might be different. There is no universal answer.

Wait a few days when more of the experts chime in before deciding on a major purchase like a new crankset and Q-rings. What I posted is a cursory handling of a complex subject.
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
I should note that while I wholeheartily agree that short cranks absolutely work (they also allow for a more ergonomic cockpit configuration, less knee issues AND better aerodynamics), and current crop of crank length seems to err on longer side when it comes to optimal biomechanics, but unless your legs are short, 140mm crank length is an overkill.
With my height of 6", 165mm cranks seems about optimal. I've tried 152, 145 and 140. 152 seem to work.
Spinning 145 and 140 cranks result in an experience that is subjectively unpleasant and a measureable power drop, no matter how I've tried to 'like' them.
A taller guy than I am tried 145mm cranks (on an MBB bent, btw) and absolutely hated it.

YMMV, of course. My GF, who is about 4 inches short than I am, loves her shortened 150mm cranks (DF cyclocross) and while she is a naturally fast spinner, they allow her to spin even faster AND reduce her knee issues.

Since you also like to apply technical solutions (and understand WHY you are doing it) Black Hawk, you might read this page:

http://members.home.nl/vd.kraats/recumbent/pedal.html
Lots of good information.
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Balor, In am 6'1" tall, with a 37.5" inseam, and 46.3" x seam, so all legs, and when going from 175 mm cranks to 153 mm cranks, instead of the above site recommended 185 mm crank, my knee pain reduced HEAPS, as my max. knee bend reduced from 95 to 85 degrees
 

Balor

Zen MBB Master
my knee pain reduced HEAPS

My knees are not the healthiest there is too. After trying my first 300km brevet I've nearly killed them, took nearly a year to recover... however, after gradually ramping up my yearly mileage, I've complete a series of 200 - 300 - 400 -600 km brevets with no knee issues whatsoever. (DF niner, see above... but it was my butt issues that made me switch to bents :))

When I've switched to a bent (with 170mm cranks) I've started to have knee issue. They just went away completely with more training.
When I've started riding DF again, knee issue returned... and went away again.
Your joints need some time to adapt to pedalling position, it seems. And yea, since you cannot stand on pedals on a bent (which is mostly about SAVING one's knees by applying most of the load when they are nearly completely straight), reducing max knee bend is very important, going over 90 is not recommended. Oval chain rings (properly aligned) help too, by shifting peak torques to lower knee bend angles.

By the way, I've yet to try cranks shorter than 175 on a 'conventional' MBB bent - my current one cannot be adjusted for my size with cranks shorter than 175, unfortunately, so I cannot really comment on that, only on 'feel' and power output, and even that can be changed with adaptation.
I should also note that I'm more of a 'masher', and shorter cranks seem to benefit spinners more. Just like Apollo said, biomechanics is a tricky issue, full of highly personal variables that are not obvious without, say, muscle biopsy :).
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks/apex.html
$219 for a double Sram Apex compact crank, BB+ chainrings shortened to 140 to 153 mm.
He can also supply and fit Qrings at cheaper than prices I could buy them for, AND correctly set up for a Recumbent, as long as you send a side photo of the bike!
A VERY good person to deal with!
Thank! I'll check it out. Still don't know what length cranks to get. Don't know my xseam, but my inseam is about 29-30 inches.
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
If price is an issue, you can avoid splurging on Q-rings and just go with a shorter crank for now.
Price is not an issue. I've invested so much already in the bike that this change is just finacial noise.
In general, shorter cranks are equivalent to increasing gear (shorter distance traveled=smaller arc=larger diameter ring)
Ooops! I was thinking the opposite. Funny how we get some obvious things backwards. Guess I'll keep the gearing the same.
Wait a few days when more of the experts chime in before deciding on a major purchase like a new crankset and Q-rings.
That's the plan. Thanks.
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
...current crop of crank length seems to err on longer side when it comes to optimal biomechanics, but unless your legs are short, 140mm crank length is an overkill.
My legs are short. Inseam ~30, xseam ~40 (just measured myself). I'm guessing I could take advantage of shorter cranks, but how short? I am not a natural spinner. My legs are large and strong but slow.

I've had bad knee pain with running. In fact, had to give up running. I lost part of my will to live after that. I've never had knee pain with cycling on a DF, even with my torn meniscus on my right knee. On the MBB, I am getting pain in my left knee cap and under my right knee. It happens mostly after steep hill climbing. I'm assuming at this point it's due to being pretty out of shape and will go away with more workouts.

Since you also like to apply technical solutions (and understand WHY you are doing it) Black Hawk, you might read this page:

http://members.home.nl/vd.kraats/recumbent/pedal.html
Lots of good information.
The article is long and exhausting, a little deeper in the weeds than I like these days, maybe a good reference source. I read some parts and scanned others. It seems to contradict itself with regards to crank length. At first it shows a table for optimal crank lengths that ranges from 170 mm to 185 mm depending on inner leg length. That would put me at about 170 cm. Then later in the article it has another table for optimizing rotational angle with crank length ranges between 146 mm and 195 mm, which suggests I should choose between 145-150 mm cranks. It seems optimal crank length has not been figured out yet.
 

castlerobber

Zen MBB Master
My legs are short. Inseam ~30, xseam ~40 (just measured myself). I'm guessing I could take advantage of shorter cranks, but how short?
My inseam is 30.5", x-seam 40.5". I got the 150mm cranks for the S30 to keep my knees from hitting the handlebars (not so much bend in the knees). The Q came stock with 155s. I had 165s on my old Silvio 1.5, and on tadpole trikes when I used to ride those. No knee problems with any of them.
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
My inseam is 30.5", x-seam 40.5". I got the 150mm cranks for the S30 to keep my knees from hitting the handlebars (not so much bend in the knees)
My knees clear the handlebars just fine. I have a curved slider pointing up, but they were fine with the straight slider. I do have a little knee pain, which is unusual for me on a bike, but I assume due to being out of shape.
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
Careful you don't get lured down the well traveled path for suckers. Make sure you have the best fit with what you have then go learn how to ride the bike. Shorter cranks will help you in the fitting department and range of knee issues. The rest is placebo. So if you have a leg boom length problem it can help. If your knees are slamming the handlebars or going above your head they will help fix this. Go ride your bike dude. Don't let us keyboard jockeys lead you astray.
Easier said than done. I'm doing all I can to get what I have adjusted to fit me. If there was a store nearby with CB experts, I would take it to them to help me get things worked out. I've already gotten lots of good advice here. I appreciate it. Why does everyone assume I'm not riding my bike? I've done three 26 mile loops, with lots of hills and obstacles, in the last 5 days. I'm not in good enough shape to do more than that. I will be commuting to work starting next week, but its only a 15 mile round trip. There's steep hills (one I have to walk up.. ouch, that hurt my ego). I will be doing longer rides on the weekends as I lose weight and gain fitness. In the meantime, I think I'm doing what I can.
 

benphyr

Guru-me-not
Keep up the good work. The commute is fantastic - it keeps things rolling when you don't feel like it and might otherwise skip. And then you have to go back home!! Don't forget to take it easy every other day so your joints and muscles can repair and build - rest is just as important as how hard you train. Says the keyboard.
 

Black Hawk Down

Senior Rookie
Keep up the good work. The commute is fantastic - it keeps things rolling when you don't feel like it and might otherwise skip. And then you have to go back home!! Don't forget to take it easy every other day so your joints and muscles can repair and build - rest is just as important as how hard you train. Says the keyboard.
I can commute every day as the ride is short, but like you said, I get on the bike twice a day, which should help with my V20 training. I'll save long rides for the weekends.
 
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