Steering damper/stabilizer

[Balor]

You are right, I do not notice myself countersteering. But I still do not understand why, if steering inertia is such a problem, it is not a problem for me. I wish I could try a Balor-type bike, just to feel the difference.

Well, if you don't find it bad, it might very well be that you find my bent having worse steering - it does have a considerable "tiller" length. Yet, in my case it is much better to have a longer tiller than a long boom, because inertia of shifting bits and your arms is much less than inertia of transmission and your legs. Plus, the longer the tiller, the more leverage you have to counter pedal feedback, and potentially more power can be added into transmission by boom swinging.

It is not nearly as aero (and likely not as efficient biomechanically) even as a Silvio due to very low BB, but I find high BB unbearable during long rides due to foot numbness.

 

[RojoRacing]

You are right, I do not notice myself countersteering. But I still do not understand why, if steering inertia is such a problem, it is not a problem for me. I wish I could try a Balor-type bike, just to feel the difference.

Countersteering is like breathing, you shouldn’t feel it unless you are focused on feeling it. If you can’t feel yourself counter steering when you try, then you don’t fully grasp what you are feeling for or don’t know of a good way to isolate the feeling.

 

[paco1961]

I have never been a great descender but was much better on a DF. On a reasonable road my flip from confident to terrified would happen at about 40-45mph. On the S40 that point shows up at about 35. No wobble or resonant wiggle but rather a tangible sense of instability at high speed. In particular, a mild puff of a crosswind is terrifying on a 35mph descent.

But pedaling hard (rather than coasting) at 35mph on the flat is no issue in terms of wobble or feelings of instability on the CB. That tells me that leg/foot input is both an asset (when pedaling at high speed) and a liability (when lax leg/foot can inject unwanted input.)

At 50mph I’d need a crow bar to pry my fingers off the bars!

 

[chicorider]

I'm no engineer, as some of you obviously are, but when I am descending and either the road is chunky or the crosswinds are swirling, I will stabilize myself by pedaling rather than coasting. I'm not necessarily pedaling to keep up with the bike, for I spin out at about 38 mph, and I might be going well faster than that. I've noticed, however, that keeping my feet moving even in a soft pedal seems to engage my legs and feet as stabilizing steering inputs, meaning that my hands and feet are now involved in keeping me steady rather than just my hands. When the road surface is good and the winds are calm, I can coast away. But when I'm coasting and a crosswind surprises me, those legs are a lot of static dead weight being pushed around; keeping the legs moving seems to lighten that weight and make the bike easier to control.

 

[Balor]

I'm no engineer, as some of you obviously are, but when I am descending and either the road is chunky or the crosswinds are swirling, I will stabilize myself by pedaling rather than coasting. I'm not necessarily pedaling to keep up with the bike, for I spin out at about 38 mph, and I might be going well faster than that. I've noticed, however, that keeping my feet moving even in a soft pedal seems to engage my legs and feet as stabilizing steering inputs, meaning that my hands and feet are now involved in keeping me steady rather than just my hands. When the road surface is good and the winds are calm, I can coast away. But when I'm coasting and a crosswind surprises me, those legs are a lot of static dead weight being pushed around; keeping the legs moving seems to lighten that weight and make the bike easier to control.

Makes sense, actually - since you spend much more time pedalling than coasting, your learned 'leg-steering' skill might be specific to pedalling as well. Also, likely it is much harder to do without clipless pedals (I've always used them myself).

 

[ed72]

I apologize but have not read this whole thread but wanted to say the Cane Creek Visco headset is a winner in my book but since I am am on an M5 CHR, please discount that endorsement.

I have intentionally ridden at high speed in high wind to learn. I also tried three different forks. I have never been as stable and confident on a bent as I was descending on an upright. I have gotten much better. How?

I learned to barely hold the bars and to carefully react to perturbations (wind, lousy roads, etc) or sometimes just let it go and not correct. Why? I found I was making it worse and the inherent stability of the bike had different characteristics than my old upright. Longer period and more lateral displacement on the bent meaning the bike will meander around a bit more at high speed in the wind on lousy roads, but trying to constantly correct is a fool's errand, in my opinion. YMMV.

I have to go thru the thread and see what RoJo says. He clearly figured it out.

 

[RojoRacing]

I apologize but have not read this whole thread but wanted to say the Cane Creek Visco headset is a winner in my book but since I am am on an M5 CHR, please discount that endorsement.

I have intentionally ridden at high speed in high wind to learn. I also tried three different forks. I have never been as stable and confident on a bent as I was descending on an upright. I have gotten much better. How?

I learned to barely hold the bars and to carefully react to perturbations (wind, lousy roads, etc) or sometimes just let it go and not correct. Why? I found I was making it worse and the inherent stability of the bike had different characteristics than my old upright. Longer period and more lateral displacement on the bent meaning the bike will meander around a bit more at high speed in the wind on lousy roads, but trying to constantly correct is a fool's errand, in my opinion. YMMV.

I have to go thru the thread and see what RoJo says. He clearly figured it out.

You’re on the right path. As I said elsewhere it takes a careful hand and a light tough but you hit on a good point, I don’t correct for every nuance in the road. I focus on keeping my weight steady and centralized and instead of forcing the bike where I want I guide it like a boat. When I do have to make a forced correction it’s obviously unsmooth and is normally the result of a mistake on my end where I guided the bike to much or not enough into a corner.

When I ride in a peloton I put extra effort into keeping the bike perfectly straight to give the others around me confidence. As soon as I’m off the back or on my own I go back to guiding the bike instead of steering it.

 

[ed72]

forcing the bike where I want I guide it like a boat

Do you mean using your butt with body English?

I had not thought of it but I tend to squirm my fat ass to make small corrections.

My other "problem" is I always ride with deep dish front wheel and a cover on the back making comparisons to an upright unfair since I never rode that way on a DF.

I decided to look at my speed distribution curve over the last 8000+ miles. Surprise to me, I hit over 60 mph. This was probably on PBP chasing that orange velomobile. The peak of my speeds are in the 27-32 mph range with quite a bit in the 40-50 mph range. I tend to keep it under 45 mph unless the road conditions, traffic, and wind are good. If the runoff is into cornfields, low traffic, no wind, and good pavement.....let it rip. If there are hardwoods, ditches, and traffic.....I play it safe. A man has guts to learns his limitations.

 

[Andrew Wilson]

I'm glad we dont have any hills big enough for speeds like that around here.... I'd kill myself

 

[RojoRacing]

Do you mean using your butt with body English?

I had not thought of it but I tend to squirm my fat ass to make small corrections.

My other "problem" is I always ride with deep dish front wheel and a cover on the back making comparisons to an upright unfair since I never rode that way on a DF.

I decided to look at my speed distribution curve over the last 8000+ miles. Surprise to me, I hit over 60 mph. This was probably on PBP chasing that orange velomobile. The peak of my speeds are in the 27-32 mph range with quite a bit in the 40-50 mph range. I tend to keep it under 45 mph unless the road conditions, traffic, and wind are good. If the runoff is into cornfields, low traffic, no wind, and good pavement.....let it rip. If there are hardwoods, ditches, and traffic.....I play it safe. A man has guts to learns his limitations.

I find the disc in the rear makes zero difference to handling but the 30-40mm deeper in the front will. I don't move my butt to influence the bike, I just am of the opinion that compared to how a DF feels like it steers with the front wheel, the cruzbike feels like it had a hinge under your back and steers between the two wheels. It's not like a rear-wheel steering forklift but somewhere in between. Properly visualizing how your machine feels and how you intend to control it are important processes for getting this stuff to become second nature. If I were to continue to visualize my steering stem as the pivot point and my handlebar inputs as the direct control to the bike even though it feels like it pivots with the rear then I'd never make the subconscious association. Now this is only at high speeds where steering inputs must be very critical, at low speeds it feels just like I'm steering with the front like a normal bike.

You know what is ironic about all this? I've been learning and mastering racing machines my whole life that the actual process, everything I've just described above is what is second nature to me. At this point, it isn't until someone asked me these questions that I have to retrace what I did in order to understand what is actually required. By teaching you guys what I do I actually teach myself what I do, how weird is that? The human mind is a very funny thing to dissect.

 

[benphyr]

That has been my experience too- learning and understanding proceed geometrically when one is teaching and explaining.

 

[BikeGary]

I have a S30 and at GPS measured 30+mph I cannot pedal and feel safe while descending. And I don't have the legs yet to push it to 30+mph on the flats. The max speed has been 44mph for a brief couple of seconds before the hill leveled out and I rarely let it do that mostly because traffic is passing me at 50+ and I don't feel I have enough space in the bike lane to adjust to whatever garbage is in it. Hitting something at speed is either I bump over or lose control and I have no need to get to work all bloody but a minute or two faster.

I have only about 2K on the bike so I'm still a beginner on it, and I expect to know the bike better as I ride more but it clearly doesn't not "lock in" like my DF does. That bike the faster it goes, the more locked in it feels) But it doesn't feel squirrelly either at speed. However with wind resistance I can barely get the DF to 40+mph.

I admire Rojo for being fearless and going so fast, but I have the "what are you crazy?" gene which keeps me from driving cars, bicycles, sailboats or anything else at the very edge of control. BTW a sailboat that is out of control at 7mph is just as scary as a bike at 40+.... it's about control.

 

[Balor]

it's about control.

Exactly. Control for steering overshoot first and foremost . Once you understand this, a LOT of things suddenly make total sense.

 

[Michael Polen]

I am also a bit concerned at the "sporty-ness" of my vendetta at high speed. It seems to get pretty frisky at about 45mph. In an attempt to improve this, I figured that I would bite the bullet and fit up a Cane Creek viscoset headset. It was a bit of a challenge as it is not compatible with the headset used in the Vendetta, but with a little help from my lathe, I was able to whip up an adapter and make it work.

So, results... drum roll please... I found that it's effects were quite noticeable at low speeds. It seemed to improve my low speed wobbles some, but really had no noticeable effect on the high speed stability. The inbly way to describe the feel is to compare it to running a much fatter tire at lower pressure. I usually run 28mm tires at about 90 psi. The viscoset headset made them feel much like my 32mm softies at 60psi.

John, could you provide a description of how you did this, part#s, etc? What had to be adapted?

 

[John Crawford]

John, could you provide a description of how you did this, part#s, etc? What had to be adapted?

Hi Michael,

I had the V20 so I had to make an adapter that would accept the larger viscoset headset and then still press into the head tube. Bit of a custom job I'm afraid. I actually gave up on this headset after about a year as I found that most of my issues were resolved with different wheel / tire/ pressure combinations.

I think the new V20C uses a compatible headset so it would be a simple swap.

 

[Michael Polen]

Hi Michael,

I had the V20 so I had to make an adapter that would accept the larger viscoset headset and then still press into the head tube. Bit of a custom job I'm afraid. I actually gave up on this headset after about a year as I found that most of my issues were resolved with different wheel / tire/ pressure combinations.

I think the new V20C uses a compatible headset so it would be a simple swap.

I have the older version as well, and the instabilty over 20 is pretty frightening. So much so that I have not ridden it in over a year. I was going to try thicker grease and a tension spring, but if there was a way to do a damper I would be interested. I am heavier so I thing my leg mass may be causing more of an issue. I have Velocity "Clydesdale" wheels and the new longer, curved boom. I have tried 28s, but at my size I cannot risk running low pressures. I have put hours on this thing below 20, in the local school parking lot weaving back and forth doing hours of drills. The second I get out on my favorite nearly deserted road, and start to build speed, i get out of sync, or the frame/fork/wheels start flexing, and all of a sudden I start wobbling and I have to slow down. I have dumped it once. I may have PTSD from my motorcycle days regarding wobble, but it should not be this hard. The previous owner had an issue as well, which is probably why he sold it. One would think if I can hover a helicopter or wheel land a Pitts, I should be able to figure this out. Did you find that it made no difference? What combination finally worked for you? Any assistance would be very appreciated, I would like to use this for more than wall art.

 

[Black Hawk Down]

I have the older version as well, and the instabilty over 20 is pretty frightening. So much so that I have not ridden it in over a year. I was going to try thicker grease and a tension spring, but if there was a way to do a damper I would be interested. I am heavier so I thing my leg mass may be causing more of an issue. I have Velocity "Clydesdale" wheels and the new longer, curved boom. I have tried 28s, but at my size I cannot risk running low pressures. I have put hours on this thing below 20, in the local school parking lot weaving back and forth doing hours of drills. The second I get out on my favorite nearly deserted road, and start to build speed, i get out of sync, or the frame/fork/wheels start flexing, and all of a sudden I start wobbling and I have to slow down. I have dumped it once. I may have PTSD from my motorcycle days regarding wobble, but it should not be this hard. The previous owner had an issue as well, which is probably why he sold it. One would think if I can hover a helicopter or wheel land a Pitts, I should be able to figure this out. Did you find that it made no difference? What combination finally worked for you? Any assistance would be very appreciated, I would like to use this for more than wall art.

I'm also heavy (235 currently) and mine wobbles at around 12 mph, but gets better as I go faster. I put a small rack on the back and carry quite a bit of weight in it, plus it's hot where I'm living and I carry about a gallon of water on the back of the seat. I noticed that the more weight I put on the back, the worse it wobbles. It's annoying, but doesn't really affect my riding. I have big, heavy 2" touring tires on it, which I think makes it more stable as I go faster due to inertia in the wheels. My plan is to lose weight and move my bag from the back to under the seat. I could move the water lower, but it's not convenient.

 

[John Crawford]

I have the older version as well, and the instabilty over 20 is pretty frightening. So much so that I have not ridden it in over a year. I was going to try thicker grease and a tension spring, but if there was a way to do a damper I would be interested. I am heavier so I thing my leg mass may be causing more of an issue. I have Velocity "Clydesdale" wheels and the new longer, curved boom. I have tried 28s, but at my size I cannot risk running low pressures. I have put hours on this thing below 20, in the local school parking lot weaving back and forth doing hours of drills. The second I get out on my favorite nearly deserted road, and start to build speed, i get out of sync, or the frame/fork/wheels start flexing, and all of a sudden I start wobbling and I have to slow down. I have dumped it once. I may have PTSD from my motorcycle days regarding wobble, but it should not be this hard. The previous owner had an issue as well, which is probably why he sold it. One would think if I can hover a helicopter or wheel land a Pitts, I should be able to figure this out. Did you find that it made no difference? What combination finally worked for you? Any assistance would be very appreciated, I would like to use this for more than wall art.

The biggest issues I've seen as riders begin to put out more power relate to boom length and pedal stroke. It is common to hit the end of your pedal stroke before you fully extend your leg. Force applied to the pedals beyond the end of the pedal stroke will only cause the front end of the bike to deflect and wobble. As a diagnostic exercise, try pedaling only through the top of the stroke and easing the pressure before you hit full extension.

 

[Michael Polen]

The biggest issues I've seen as riders begin to put out more power relate to boom length and pedal stroke. It is common to hit the end of your pedal stroke before you fully extend your leg. Force applied to the pedals beyond the end of the pedal stroke will only cause the front end of the bike to deflect and wobble. As a diagnostic exercise, try pedaling only through the top of the stroke and easing the pressure before you hit full extension.

That sounds reasonable, and I will try it. The wobbles also come when coasting, however.

 

[Michael Polen]

I'm also heavy (235 currently) and mine wobbles at around 12 mph, but gets better as I go faster. I put a small rack on the back and carry quite a bit of weight in it, plus it's hot where I'm living and I carry about a gallon of water on the back of the seat. I noticed that the more weight I put on the back, the worse it wobbles. It's annoying, but doesn't really affect my riding. I have big, heavy 2" touring tires on it, which I think makes it more stable as I go faster due to inertia in the wheels. My plan is to lose weight and move my bag from the back to under the seat. I could move the water lower, but it's not convenient.

I have moved my water down behind the seat, but I still have my toolbag up behind my shoulders. I am at the point where I would like to find someone nearby who has ridden these successfully to ride it and tell me if it is the bike or me. I am the second owner to have issues with this particular bike, and I believe the previous owner was much smaller than I am. I can feel the increased rigidity and efficiency in the drivetrain compared to my Wishbone, but the chassis feels like cooked spaghetti above 20 mph.