Taking her by the horns; an S2 fitting to tall body

TalleyHo

Active Member
Rather than hijack current threads on the cockpit arranging of S and V I'd like to address here the fitting of my S2 to this radical body. But first I should explain that my main interest in the CB concept was the full body engagement afforded by the design. Also I have some specific requirements aside from the obvious need to have proper leg extension and freedom from any interference. Those are to have max aero, minimizing any extra wind shadow both at the crank and the hands... to have minimal arm bend, about 15 to 20 degrees and to have a rather closed posture, I believe bikes like the S1 and P-38 climb well in large part to that. So I ordered a 150 mm chainstay extender with the bike but upon doing the frame build it was immediately apparent that the stock bars were not going to cut it.

Here's a poorly light image of the "fit" with the stock drops with the extension
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Here there is major interference, hands actually too low and arms well bent. But when I stretched at my arms in a comfortable posture I noticed my hands assumed the same angle upward and inward as the CB bullhorn bars do. I research the CB bullhorn bars size and realized that they, in the larger of the 2 sizes matched the width of my shoulder sockets, about 530 mm. So I ordered the large kit
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I was surprised to find brakes came with it and if anyone can enlighten me about the mechanical aspects of these please do. But I'm still focused on getting the all important , to me, fit. Because this the other big unexpected thing. I'm totally struck by the whole forward triangle of this beast; it seems unwieldy and needs to be tamed, all the more reason to have a real handle on taking the beast by the horns and being able to fulfill my whole body biking experience in real comfort. And real comfort we now have
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I believe this has the potential to be the most comfortable recumbent yet for me. I didn't expect the arm rest aspect of the horns. The wrist and lower arm actually rest without
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gripping at all. My hands are at the exact same level as shoulders, there is adequate leg clearance. Now I should also explain that as far as brifters go, I don't know what I'm missing and am making no sacrifices to have such a superb set up for taming the beast. There may be some fine tuning that I'll find needing once on the road. I have a 100 mm extension available thanks to Bob providing me his spare. But the fit is essentially done and now to get mechanically geared. but first a few more shots of interest.
P1000973.JPG


So now I need some advice. I see my options as follows:

1) go with the stock plan and the internal cable routing and do a Bob Ratz and violate the slider. That would be cool but is thee a performance issue in the tight bends?
2) install Shimano bar ends, do an external routing, avoid the slider issue and get all friction shifting, my preference.
3) Do a Bob Ratz and invent a way to use brifters on these bars or some other such thing

I'm open to suggestions. I have now about 9 more days left before time permits this project to assume number 1 priority. This experience so far has far exceeded my expectations. I can see that taming this MBB is going to be fun and efficient.

Dave
 

John Tolhurst

Zen MBB Master
The bars have holes to let

The bars have holes to let the brake cable run internally. Instead, use those holes to let the gear cable come out, run both under the bar tape as per convention. I think that will work.
 

Ivan

Guru
That looks like a nice

That looks like a nice position you have with the bullhorns. Your 150mm extension places your BB height similar to my 100mm extension. Given that I am shorter so my shoulders are lower, the stock handlebars were okay for me. But I can see how for you, they wouldn't do.

I would follow what John says as that requires no drilling of holes. I love the idea of fully internal cables but drilling that boom is something I would personally wait to hear more feedback from before daring to do myself.

Now for max aero, about that beard... ;)
 

ratz

Wielder of the Rubber Mallet
Comparative Observation

Looking Good Dave,

My immediate reaction to the first photo was "Hey that's what I looked like on the bike on the first fit attempt" albeit I'm smaller.

What I immediately noticed is the height of the BB and shortness of the boom. So apply what I have learned so far.... I was thinking that even with the Horn installed; you might want to lengthen the boom (if possible at your height) and then shove the whole assembly forward a bit to raise the bars and lower the BB.

Frankly, I was really reticent about doing that on mine, as I had high BB and ultra Aero in mind. I have ridden a trike with a high BB for a while now; and I was concerned that if my BB was lower that, (1) I would have to train new muscles; (2) Aero would be negatively impacted (3) Climbing might suffer as it opened my torso. Now that I have just a few road miles in the wind and on the hills logged, it's already obvious that Only #1 came to pass and the lower BB does take some of the sting out of the heavy front end. Aero has been shockingly good; and climbing is outstanding. Can't say that I gave up much by dropping the BB

I was wondering about those brakes too.
Ivan, the beard function like the surface of golf ball; it makes you more slipper through the air
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ak-tux

Zen MBB Master
Looks like he needs a steerer

Looks like he needs a steerer extension, to raise the handlebar a little bit to give some clearance above the torso area.:
%24(KGrHqN%2C!mEFBO3mqS3wBRd8(H7epw%7E%7E60_12.JPG
 

TalleyHo

Active Member
I should have realized, John,

I should have realized, John, that the second set of holes was to accommodate what you suggest and it sounds like a good plan to me. Please also provide any particulars as to running cables and anything else keeping in mind my only basic knowledge bike mechanical. Again, I'm impressed with bullhorn's ergonomics; shoulder width spread, wrist/arm rest and, especially, the exact, for me, correct angling at the ends, both up and in.

Ivan, that beard has been there approaching 50 years and is not likely going away, hence my need for aero everywhere else, but you've got me thinking, despite Ratz's rationalizing.

I think the BB to seat height differential is about what I am comfortable with and will start with that. I am very comfortable as is, love the grip height at shoulder level, enjoy sliding in and out of the tight cockpit; it just seems to fit. But the proof will be in the pudding and that should be happening in a week or so.
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
Do NOT use the extension

Do NOT use the extension shown above, as the two shaped halves, deformed the head stem inwards in a small area of my the Softrider head stem, stopping the internal spring preload nut from being removed to check the spring.

Use one with a full length split and two or three nuts that grip the whole area.
This is still an extra joint in the triangle that can reduce the stiffness!

A better Idea is John's of supplying a head stem longer than required with a large range of spacers, and the headstem cut to the desired height after trying the fit for us guys with Aero bellys.

Is it possible to extend the great Vendetta fit chart system to the Silvio, and include more rider dimensions.

What is the control of the Silvio like when decending fast with the Bullhorns compared to a Mountain WTB drop bar (600 mm max width at bar ends)

Super Slim


 

TalleyHo

Active Member
What are these brakes that

What are these brakes that came with the Vendetta Bullhorn kit? They are extremely fine and a fair bit lighter than the Ultegra 6700 that I was going to use. Is it some kind of hybrid linear pull caliper. I'm no bike mechanic but I can't find anything like this in my researching brakes. Nothing at all labeled aside from a patent #. As I have a bit of time today for this project I'm realizing I'll likely need a little LBS help next week when returning from trip but any info unique to the control aspect of the Silvio will help. For starters, on mounting these brakes.
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Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
I didn't care for mine and

I didn't care for mine and just kept my SRAM Rival brakes. Maybe I just got a bad lot but only one of the bushings in the red pieces moved freely (4 per brake, 8 total so 7 "stuck"), the mount bolts were both the same length and they didn't seem to want to disassemble to lend themselves to a better fit.

I also had one of those spring ends pop loose from the little retaining tab while I was trying to get the bushings to move. That smarted but not too difficult to secure it back.

Other than that they look kind of cool and are pretty light but I was not impressed. If yours are better and you get them mounted and working I'd be interested in seeing photos of how they work out for you.

-Eric
 

TalleyHo

Active Member
Silvio finally fitted

Following up here on my initial Silvio fit challenges, I have the bike dialed-in and I'm very happy so far. But it was a surprising and learning process to eliminate leg interference, as it turned out. This S fitting is to a rather radical body; not just it's length but also the lack of buttock flesh locating the hip socket well aft, exacerbating the leg/bar interference. That combined with long cranks (175) and the low bars (150 mm extension) made it necessary to slide the boom well aft into the cockpit. But due to a complete lack of any belly I have gotten away with this most fortuitous set-up because I have been able to get all that I wanted, closed posture, max aero and low, more relaxed bar height. I also got something I hadn't planned, a forearm rest that these low bull horn's provide allowing for steering without griping and an ultra relaxed ride.

The adjusting has occurred "on the fly" as I began "riding" well before I eliminated, what seemed at the time, minor interference. So after failure at first to be able to control bike with feet up on road in front of house, got serious and went to vacant school parking lot and before long was riding with reckless abandon. Then next day on road with training pedals, next day with clip-ins and then a few more days, each with much improvement before the leg interference became an issue. Then, to my surprise, each day I would slide the boom aft a couple cm's, ostensibly to get the bar away from the thighs, but the interference would persist unchanged. Also odd was there was no need to telescope the boom/lengthen the x-seam forward after 3 of these sliding back adjustments. Meanwhile the bars are getting well back in the cockpit and interference persisted unchanged. Finally after maybe 50 mm of boom sliding aft did I start to get the need to telescope the BB away. That plus one or two more slides aft finally got the bars away from thighs. Meanwhile the bull horn rearward positioning only improved my comfort and reach, as hands rest at bar ends easily for ready shifting. Here are a few things I seem to have learned about CB fitting:

1) As the boom slides back the bars tend to lower thus canceling out some or all the gains for leg clearance from aft positioning
2) As the boom slides back the BB raises which has an effect on x-seam. I have noticed on a conventional recumbent, when changing the seats recline there is an x-seam change/adjustment that happens. On the CB, the boom slide is the equivalent of this kind of adjustment.

So, I'm really loving this bike! It's incredibly comfortable, so much so that the racing instinct is overcome by the coach potato instinct so far. I love the slow-speed handling and am excited to contemplate the high speed possibilities. Each day out there's greater speed but there is a long way to go. i can't reliably go near 6 mph without a high chance of loosing it, forcing me to mash on hills, avoid anywhere near granny gear, which limits my routing. But I'm sure that all I need is more time and miles. I'm figuring likely 3 to 4 months before leveling off with the kinesthetic adjusting.

Here she is now. BTW, maybe next off season, I'll switch to 100 mm extension and try drops and brifters, the grass being always greener elsewhere. But this bullhorn set-up is sweet.

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Cheers,

Dave
 

Eric Winn

Zen MBB Master
I like the look of your

I like the look of your Silvio with bullhorns, particularly with the length and position of the boom and BB. Somehow it looks kind of elegantly menacing.

I recommend a mirror on both sides of the bars though. Having both works wonders for tracking stuff through both left and right turns and similar curves in the road.

How hilly is it around you Dave?

-Eric
 

TalleyHo

Active Member
Elegantly menacing, yes Eric,

Elegantly menacing, yes Eric, I think that describes it well. "Intense" was all a friend of mine could utter, somewhat dazed he seemed. Thanks for the second-mirror suggestion; I doubt I'd have thought of that but now I can imagine that could add a lot. The Cyclestar mirror with 3 inch stalk is nearly too short and at times I have less than adequate view due to shoulder interference (especially when wearing bulky clothes) but a second mirror I bet would fix that; somehow the 6 inch stalk version would be less menacing and so I've resisted that fix. I will post some images, Charles, of the elegant fit soon.
 

Ashtabula

New Member
Tall guy fit adjustments

TallyHo,

I'm in the Silvio backorder queue, and while waiting, I'm working to learn what I can from following the forum posts. Your post caught my attention because of what I anticipate will be a similar fit issue. I'm 6'5" tall with a 46" xseam. I'm guessing you are in the same size ballpark as I am. FWIW, I've ordered the 150mm chainstay extension.

Are you happy with your current setup? Do have a picture to post with you on the bike?
 

Jeremy S

Dude
Hi Bill, just noting that

Hi Bill, just noting that while you are much taller than me, your x-seam is only about one inch longer than mine and I am doing fine on my Silvio with no chainstay extension at all. I wonder if you wouldn't have an easier fit with the 100mm extension instead of the 150mm. I think that x-seam is the important factor in choosing a chainstay extension, not total height.
 

Ivan

Guru
I guess Bill would fit both

I guess Bill would fit both 150mm and 100mm chainstay extensions, depending on how high he wanted the BB. But if your setup is going to be angled like TalleyHo's (or mine), then you better have no belly just a small one cos those low handlebars do make for a tight cockpit.

I would recommend shorter crank-arms to get you more room to play with the bars. Especially for long armed people like yourselves, you will want to able to move the handlebar as far forward as possible. This is aided with SHORTER cranks and a LOWER bottom bracket.
 

Ashtabula

New Member
Hi Bill, just noting that

Hi Bill, just noting that while you are much taller than me, your x-seam is only about one inch longer than mine and I am doing fine on my Silvio with no chainstay extension at all. I wonder if you wouldn't have an easier fit with the 100mm extension instead of the 150mm. I think that x-seam is the important factor in choosing a chainstay extension, not total height.

Hi Jeremy,
I suspect I will need a chainstay extension because of my current plans to make my 175mm cranks work with my size 13 (Euro 48) size feet. As to whether a 100mm or 150mm extension would be preferred, that verdict will have to wait until my backordered frame arrives. Once it is here and can be built up to permit fit/sizing trial-and-error, I'll know a lot more. Shorter cranks? Perhaps, but I want to try what I have first before pulling out the credit card again!

 

TalleyHo

Active Member
Tall guy fit

Hi Ashtabula;

I have managed to get my Silvio to be a great fit for me; fits like a glove, as the saying goes. BUT, I can't imagine being able to use the 150mm extension AND be able to use drop bars. i'm not even sure I could get a satisfactory fit using drops with a 100 mm extension. I hope those with experience with this weigh-in. Take a look at the images below and try to imagine drop bars of some existing type providing a full reach. I do really love the bullhorn bars, however. It's the arm-rest feature of them and the intimate contact with the front end/triangle that is nice and reassuring somehow. But I'm still learning MBB and so can't really know what I'm talking about here. And on the learning aspect... could the high BB plus an extended BB make the learn more challenging, maybe there's more pedal steer, more leverage??

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The following 2 shots show the 2 hand/arm positioning with the bullhorns. The first in cruising/relaxed hardly gripping mode and the second in powering mode. Note the arm resting mid forearm and forward.

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Ivan has a good point regarding the crank arm length. I'm using 175s because that's what I had but could have mitigated my fitting struggles and achieve a less extreme, more open cockpit with shorter cranks. In the end, though, I'm benefiting from the lower bars and the comfort that can come with that. but I still don't see how I could have managed with drop bars. And, BTW, I see there is no bullhorn in the new offerings. There must be something in the works.

Dave
 

Ashtabula

New Member
No more bullhorns?

Hmmm. I'm one of the the curious who also noticed the lack of bullhorn option in the current website. Perhaps John/Jim/Maria could enlighten us as to what happened and whether there is a new alternative in the works. FWIW, I find that waiting is LOT easier if I know the status of things. It's not knowing that makes it harder to bear!

The apparent loss of bullhorns as a fit-adjustment option tweak is starting to freak me out! I'm anxious enough with the current backorder wait time for the Silvio frameset without adding to it with worries about options to make it work well for me when it does arrive. Once in hand, I want to be able to build it up quickly and get to riding!!
 

TalleyHo

Active Member
No worries, Mate. There's got


No worries, Mate. There's got to be a few options for you, including, surely, the CB bullhorns. They came in 2 sizes and there's got to be some around.
 
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