Testing week in Asheville, NC June 25 - July 1
- Thread starter LarryOz
- Start date
super slim
Zen MBB Master
I hope there were no accidents, with Mr butterfingers Larry, trying to miss the cute squirrel?
was there any Peanut butter sandwiches anywhere on the course?
was there any Peanut butter sandwiches anywhere on the course?
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Fantastic photos Steve - Wow!This guy was certainly confused:
This squirrel has been there every day I have ever gone to this Park!
I guess he is the resident: chase vehicle!
He will actually run along side the bike for a about 6070 feet - Pretty funny!
No accidents yet!
So far he has manged to survive not getting run over!
Yes, there are other DF's on the track every now and then,
O Saturdays there is also a group of about 10 guys riding fixies. They all get in a long line and practice drafting. I just stay really wide of them
on the track and give them plenty of room when I passed them!
- Of course they don't stand a chance!
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
...
This was a custom CF "Zockra clone" make by a guy that goes by "woodenfixie" over on BROL.
He had trouble riding it and thought it was too dangerous and sold it to someone in Maryland.
The guy in Maryland couldn't really ride it either and "loaned" it to me to test with.
I did not really have any trouble riding it - it is after all a FWD MBB mile, but it is a little more finicky than the Vendetta - but it was not impossible
It is way to big for me - my head does not hang over the end of the seat - and yes the handlebars are also up pretty high.
It was not as fast as the Vendetta at all power ranges from 75 up to 300. It ranged from 3 to 4.5 slower.
I'll release the data when I get a chance - but that is the quick report.
I'm riding so much I don't seem to have time to sort out the data (Good thing I am at the beach next week - that will be a good job to do while I am there.
RojoRacing
Donut Powered Wise-guy
if it's to big for you it would probably fit me perfect. the thing looks like it could be bloody fast if it fitted someone who could comfortably produce quality power. we just need to find a record that needs breaking
MrSteve
Zen MBB Master
I gotta agree with the Destroyer Of All Egos Upright:
The Zockra clone looks like it has lots of potential for speed.
The seat recline angle is similar to the V, and that's important, for example.
If LarryOz had had the ZClone outfitted to duplicate the ergonomics of his racing Vendetta,
seat, bars, drivetrain, hip angle, and powertrain, the ZClone would show it's speed under LarryPower.
The Zockra clone looks like it has lots of potential for speed.
The seat recline angle is similar to the V, and that's important, for example.
If LarryOz had had the ZClone outfitted to duplicate the ergonomics of his racing Vendetta,
seat, bars, drivetrain, hip angle, and powertrain, the ZClone would show it's speed under LarryPower.
super slim
Zen MBB Master
if it's to big for you it would probably fit me perfect. the thing looks like it could be bloody fast if it fitted someone who could comfortably produce quality power. we just need to find a record that needs breaking
Would "woodenfixie" have an X seam of 46.3"??
If so I know a PERFECT home for his creation!!!
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Sorry I have not updated this thread with my testing. I am sorry busy every day - and now its already 10pm and time for bed.
Very quick recap:
Here is the my testing protocol that I will try and do on each bike
100 watts for 5 miles
200 watts for 3 miles
300 watts for 2 miles
75 watts for 5 miles
175 watts for 5 miles
275 watts for 2 miles
125 watts for 5 miles
250 watts for 3 miles
150 watts for 5 miles
225 watts for 3 miles
2x - .65 mile "hill" up
2x - 0.5 mile hill down (8% grade for first 0.2) - to get max speed and time
2x - 0.4 hill up (8% grade for some)
2x - 0.65 hill down to get max speed and time
3x - 0.5 gentle grade (2-3%) up - at 150, 200, 250 sustained watts
3x - 0.5 gentle grade down to get max speed and time
Monday - Morciglio Hammerhead - cranks too long - forgot to switch out - did not have equipment. Only ran a test at 100 and 150 watts - too painful to tide. Also rode the Vendetta for all the testing scenarios.
Tuesday- Morciglio Arrowhead - Super fast (about 1mph faster than the Vendetta at certain wattage outputs, but seat hurt my back - and I was in pain after completing the ~50 miles of tests. Switched to the Vendetta for there rest of the day (Remember I am also doing my 15 days for Honduras with a goal of 100 miles a day, so need to ride a little more)
Wed - Morciglio Apache - This seat also hurt my back - I finally went and got my lumbar and Ventist off my Vendetta and it was better, but my back now had about 3 pressure points that really bugged me by the end of the day - Apache - slower by about 1.5-2mph than Vendetta.
Thursday I just needed a break because my testing scenarios are very hard to do each morning after having put in at least 100 miles the previous day, so I just took the Vendetta to the private track close by my house and did an easy 100 miles at 100 watts recovery pace. (and of course I ran off the end of the track steering around a walking person and catch the edge of the tire in the grass - tried to yanked it back and went down - Now rode rash on my right arm and hip! What fun. I really wanted to test the Morciglio M1 tomorrow, but well have to see how I feel.
I am on vacation all next week, and I will be able to dedicate some really time to organizing all the data.
I'll also parse out and convert much of the data, convert it, and feed it into CdA cruncher.
Very quick recap:
Here is the my testing protocol that I will try and do on each bike
100 watts for 5 miles
200 watts for 3 miles
300 watts for 2 miles
75 watts for 5 miles
175 watts for 5 miles
275 watts for 2 miles
125 watts for 5 miles
250 watts for 3 miles
150 watts for 5 miles
225 watts for 3 miles
2x - .65 mile "hill" up
2x - 0.5 mile hill down (8% grade for first 0.2) - to get max speed and time
2x - 0.4 hill up (8% grade for some)
2x - 0.65 hill down to get max speed and time
3x - 0.5 gentle grade (2-3%) up - at 150, 200, 250 sustained watts
3x - 0.5 gentle grade down to get max speed and time
Monday - Morciglio Hammerhead - cranks too long - forgot to switch out - did not have equipment. Only ran a test at 100 and 150 watts - too painful to tide. Also rode the Vendetta for all the testing scenarios.
Tuesday- Morciglio Arrowhead - Super fast (about 1mph faster than the Vendetta at certain wattage outputs, but seat hurt my back - and I was in pain after completing the ~50 miles of tests. Switched to the Vendetta for there rest of the day (Remember I am also doing my 15 days for Honduras with a goal of 100 miles a day, so need to ride a little more)
Wed - Morciglio Apache - This seat also hurt my back - I finally went and got my lumbar and Ventist off my Vendetta and it was better, but my back now had about 3 pressure points that really bugged me by the end of the day - Apache - slower by about 1.5-2mph than Vendetta.
Thursday I just needed a break because my testing scenarios are very hard to do each morning after having put in at least 100 miles the previous day, so I just took the Vendetta to the private track close by my house and did an easy 100 miles at 100 watts recovery pace. (and of course I ran off the end of the track steering around a walking person and catch the edge of the tire in the grass - tried to yanked it back and went down - Now rode rash on my right arm and hip! What fun. I really wanted to test the Morciglio M1 tomorrow, but well have to see how I feel.
I am on vacation all next week, and I will be able to dedicate some really time to organizing all the data.
I'll also parse out and convert much of the data, convert it, and feed it into CdA cruncher.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
MBB Clone testing results (really sorry for the delay in this report - better late than never I guess!)
The Zockra MBB Clone is a custom made MBB-FWD recumbent made by Ken O. (woodenfixie). It was patterned slightly after a Zockra (by Malric) via pictures Ken acquired online. It has a single shock suspension under the seat and the rear stay. It is an amazing recumbent, and a unique work of art by Ken, who has made many works of art out of many different materials. Kudo's to you Ken, you are a true craftsman!
This bike does not fit me very well at 5'7". It needs someone about 6" taller to fill the seat completely.
A taller person in my opinion would be more aerodynamic, comfortable, and would probably have a better CdA than myself.
Weight difference:
I have later come to find out that because of the uneven surface on the track that the weight from the scale was not very accurate, so I can really only report with any accuracy the "differences" in the bike's weight. I'll have to re-weight everything on my shop floor at a later time. For now. The Zockra Clone weighed 1.7 lbs more than the V20
I ran through the testing protocol (listed earlier in this post) with this bike and the V20 on the same day, on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner).The V20 was tested later in the day, so the temps where slightly higher, the humidity slightly lower and the winds slightly higher as would normally be expected for this time of year. What little I know about all these meteorological factors I would tend to believe that the differences where not huge and probably cancel each other out from the standpoint of benefiting one bike over the other. If anything the earlier bike may have a slight advantage.
The ZC was a little figgity for me to ride with the fork angle be somewhat steeper than I am used to on the Vendetta.
I was able to ride it OK, but have to admit that it was harder and harder to handle as I applied more power and went faster. (Some of that probably had to do with the tightness of some of the corners and the rough pavement to navigate.)
I am sure some of my trepidation had to do with just not having many miles under my belt with the ZC also, as I maybe warmed up on it for a few miles before starting the testing, and only rode it for maybe 20 miles about 6 months ago.
Due to me being too small for the seat and my helmet and head being pushed forward it was also a little uncomfortable and got more-so as I applied more power.
As you can see on the spreadsheet I was actually unable to complete the testing protocol for anything above 243 watts over a sustained period, and for some reason my power balance shifted more toward my left side. Average was about 55/45, where as my average on the Vendetta is about 51/49 (although I have noticed as I get more tired, but left leg begins to dominate more on the V20)
This ZC bike also used a set of bullhorn handlebars and brifters (which stick out in the wind) when compared to my V20 with my stubby "suicide bars" and aero shifters hidden behind my leg
The front wheel, which is a 16" wheel also did not have an comparably "fast" tire as the V20, which also probably affected rolling resistance a little. And since it had a shock, some energy was also lost because of that.
Even with all these things against it, Ken's Zockra Clone was still incredibly fast and was just slightly slower than my V20.
You can see all the data (time, dist, avg sp, watts, cad, pulse, etc ) in my complete spreadsheet, but here are a couple of figures:
@100 watts: ZC: 19.51 mph, V20: 20.12 mph - delta 0.61 mph
@150 watts: ZC: 22.79 mph, V20: 23.87 mph - delta 1.08 mph
@200 watts: ZC 25.61 mph, V20: 26.55 mph - delta 0.94 mph
@225 watts: ZC 27.8 mph, V20: 29.25 mph - delta 1.45 mph
max speeds down the same hill: ZC: 43.67, V20 43.95 - delta 0.28 mph
As you can see, for the most part, as the wattages and speeds increased, the V20 appeared to have a larger and larger speed margin.
Take away: Ken's Zockra Clone is a very cool looking, very fast recumbent and I think would probably have a CdA very similar to the Vendetta with a slightly larger person riding it, a tiller, a faster front tire, and no shock in the back. As you are aware however a bike's CdA is probably 80% the rider and position. In the end, however a recumbent this low is not a practical choice for riding on the open road as compare to the Vendetta. It is more of a track bike. I would love to see someone who is about 6'1" or taller give it a go and test with their Vendetta.
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
p.s. Yes, I know the ZC clone in the picture does not have a "tire" on the back wheel, and no I did not ride it like that. (For transport only.)I used the same Tri-spoke wheel that was on the V20.
Link to short video of me riding the ZC: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wni8roeb986vave/Larry-Ken-ZC.mp4?dl=0
Link to short video of me riding the V20: https://www.dropbox.com/s/69khj8n6pmhy8m3/Larry-V20.mp4?dl=0
(Video complements of Steve Williams who came to the track to help me during this test!)
Next up - Report on Morciglio's Hammerhead MBB-FWD
The Zockra MBB Clone is a custom made MBB-FWD recumbent made by Ken O. (woodenfixie). It was patterned slightly after a Zockra (by Malric) via pictures Ken acquired online. It has a single shock suspension under the seat and the rear stay. It is an amazing recumbent, and a unique work of art by Ken, who has made many works of art out of many different materials. Kudo's to you Ken, you are a true craftsman!
This bike does not fit me very well at 5'7". It needs someone about 6" taller to fill the seat completely.
A taller person in my opinion would be more aerodynamic, comfortable, and would probably have a better CdA than myself.
Weight difference:
I have later come to find out that because of the uneven surface on the track that the weight from the scale was not very accurate, so I can really only report with any accuracy the "differences" in the bike's weight. I'll have to re-weight everything on my shop floor at a later time. For now. The Zockra Clone weighed 1.7 lbs more than the V20
I ran through the testing protocol (listed earlier in this post) with this bike and the V20 on the same day, on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner).The V20 was tested later in the day, so the temps where slightly higher, the humidity slightly lower and the winds slightly higher as would normally be expected for this time of year. What little I know about all these meteorological factors I would tend to believe that the differences where not huge and probably cancel each other out from the standpoint of benefiting one bike over the other. If anything the earlier bike may have a slight advantage.
The ZC was a little figgity for me to ride with the fork angle be somewhat steeper than I am used to on the Vendetta.
I was able to ride it OK, but have to admit that it was harder and harder to handle as I applied more power and went faster. (Some of that probably had to do with the tightness of some of the corners and the rough pavement to navigate.)
I am sure some of my trepidation had to do with just not having many miles under my belt with the ZC also, as I maybe warmed up on it for a few miles before starting the testing, and only rode it for maybe 20 miles about 6 months ago.
Due to me being too small for the seat and my helmet and head being pushed forward it was also a little uncomfortable and got more-so as I applied more power.
As you can see on the spreadsheet I was actually unable to complete the testing protocol for anything above 243 watts over a sustained period, and for some reason my power balance shifted more toward my left side. Average was about 55/45, where as my average on the Vendetta is about 51/49 (although I have noticed as I get more tired, but left leg begins to dominate more on the V20)
This ZC bike also used a set of bullhorn handlebars and brifters (which stick out in the wind) when compared to my V20 with my stubby "suicide bars" and aero shifters hidden behind my leg
The front wheel, which is a 16" wheel also did not have an comparably "fast" tire as the V20, which also probably affected rolling resistance a little. And since it had a shock, some energy was also lost because of that.
Even with all these things against it, Ken's Zockra Clone was still incredibly fast and was just slightly slower than my V20.
You can see all the data (time, dist, avg sp, watts, cad, pulse, etc ) in my complete spreadsheet, but here are a couple of figures:
@100 watts: ZC: 19.51 mph, V20: 20.12 mph - delta 0.61 mph
@150 watts: ZC: 22.79 mph, V20: 23.87 mph - delta 1.08 mph
@200 watts: ZC 25.61 mph, V20: 26.55 mph - delta 0.94 mph
@225 watts: ZC 27.8 mph, V20: 29.25 mph - delta 1.45 mph
max speeds down the same hill: ZC: 43.67, V20 43.95 - delta 0.28 mph
As you can see, for the most part, as the wattages and speeds increased, the V20 appeared to have a larger and larger speed margin.
Take away: Ken's Zockra Clone is a very cool looking, very fast recumbent and I think would probably have a CdA very similar to the Vendetta with a slightly larger person riding it, a tiller, a faster front tire, and no shock in the back. As you are aware however a bike's CdA is probably 80% the rider and position. In the end, however a recumbent this low is not a practical choice for riding on the open road as compare to the Vendetta. It is more of a track bike. I would love to see someone who is about 6'1" or taller give it a go and test with their Vendetta.
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
p.s. Yes, I know the ZC clone in the picture does not have a "tire" on the back wheel, and no I did not ride it like that. (For transport only.)I used the same Tri-spoke wheel that was on the V20.
Link to short video of me riding the ZC: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wni8roeb986vave/Larry-Ken-ZC.mp4?dl=0
Link to short video of me riding the V20: https://www.dropbox.com/s/69khj8n6pmhy8m3/Larry-V20.mp4?dl=0
(Video complements of Steve Williams who came to the track to help me during this test!)
Next up - Report on Morciglio's Hammerhead MBB-FWD
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Morciglio Hammerhead testing results
To the best of my knowledge this Morciglio Hammerhead is a custom made MBB-FWD recumbent made by John Morciglio. I think he only made one other one, and it was different in several ways so for now, this is a one-of-a-kind! I also believe that he told me that this Hammerhead FWD-MBB recumbent was designed to climb "better" than his other one, but don't quote me on that.
This test was short lived (and I will unfortunately have to make another pass at it), as I failed to notice that the cranks where 167mm, which made it virtually impossible for me to really ride it comfortably. (I normally ride 140mm on the V20). I had to scoot so far forward and point my toes so far when pedaling that I had to finally stop the testing after only 2x5 miles passes. It was just too painful! I could not switch the cranks on the track either because they where different types and I did not have all tools needed. (I will see if I can put a set of 140mm cranks on it and test it again later.)
Weight difference:
The Hammerhead weighed 1.2 lbs less than the V20
As I mentioned, I was only able to make 2x5 mile passes of my testing protocol for the Hammerhead. It was just too painful to continue due to the leg reach required with the crank lengths. I rode the same wattages on the same day on the V20 within an hour. The only wattages tested where:
100 watts: Hammerhead: 16.18 mph, V20 20.77 mph - delta 4.59 mph
150 watts: Hammerhead: 20.07 mph, V20 24.15 mph - delta 4.08 mph
As you can see the Hammerhead is significantly slower than the V20.
This is primarily due to the rider being at a significantly higher posture and steeper seated angle than the V20, and the handlebars and arms of the rider being exposed much more as well.
This testing was done on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome) as the other testing. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner.
The Hammerhead employs 650 wheels, with Zipp 404 with Conti tires, so probably fairly compatible with my Tri-spokes with conti's on the V20
Take away: As stated earlier - testing was incomplete due to the fit of the Hammerhead to me and I will have to make another attempt. The Hammerhead is really in a class of it's own. It is about one the coolest looking CF bikes you have ever seen, especially painted in "Dodge Viper Blue"! A real show stopper with it's sleek lines! - and be ready to talk more about the bike to onlookers than riding it if you ever stop among a bunch of people. The steering that does not come straight out of the fork makes it look un-rid-able at first glance, but it isn't. I found it rather easy to balance and steer after a few moments with it. Visibly and "touring comfort" is better as you would expect from being higher up, but this obviously affects overall top speed. It is unique to say the least!
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
Next up - Report on Morciglio's CF Arrowhead - RWD
To the best of my knowledge this Morciglio Hammerhead is a custom made MBB-FWD recumbent made by John Morciglio. I think he only made one other one, and it was different in several ways so for now, this is a one-of-a-kind! I also believe that he told me that this Hammerhead FWD-MBB recumbent was designed to climb "better" than his other one, but don't quote me on that.
This test was short lived (and I will unfortunately have to make another pass at it), as I failed to notice that the cranks where 167mm, which made it virtually impossible for me to really ride it comfortably. (I normally ride 140mm on the V20). I had to scoot so far forward and point my toes so far when pedaling that I had to finally stop the testing after only 2x5 miles passes. It was just too painful! I could not switch the cranks on the track either because they where different types and I did not have all tools needed. (I will see if I can put a set of 140mm cranks on it and test it again later.)
Weight difference:
The Hammerhead weighed 1.2 lbs less than the V20
As I mentioned, I was only able to make 2x5 mile passes of my testing protocol for the Hammerhead. It was just too painful to continue due to the leg reach required with the crank lengths. I rode the same wattages on the same day on the V20 within an hour. The only wattages tested where:
100 watts: Hammerhead: 16.18 mph, V20 20.77 mph - delta 4.59 mph
150 watts: Hammerhead: 20.07 mph, V20 24.15 mph - delta 4.08 mph
As you can see the Hammerhead is significantly slower than the V20.
This is primarily due to the rider being at a significantly higher posture and steeper seated angle than the V20, and the handlebars and arms of the rider being exposed much more as well.
This testing was done on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome) as the other testing. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner.
The Hammerhead employs 650 wheels, with Zipp 404 with Conti tires, so probably fairly compatible with my Tri-spokes with conti's on the V20
Take away: As stated earlier - testing was incomplete due to the fit of the Hammerhead to me and I will have to make another attempt. The Hammerhead is really in a class of it's own. It is about one the coolest looking CF bikes you have ever seen, especially painted in "Dodge Viper Blue"! A real show stopper with it's sleek lines! - and be ready to talk more about the bike to onlookers than riding it if you ever stop among a bunch of people. The steering that does not come straight out of the fork makes it look un-rid-able at first glance, but it isn't. I found it rather easy to balance and steer after a few moments with it. Visibly and "touring comfort" is better as you would expect from being higher up, but this obviously affects overall top speed. It is unique to say the least!
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
Next up - Report on Morciglio's CF Arrowhead - RWD
super slim
Zen MBB Master
Larry, can the hammerhead seat be moved forward and the back rotated lower by the 2nd set of hole?
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
I think I have the seat "tilted" back to the lowest position with the existing holes.
I'll have another look at it, and since I need to swap out the cranks, hopefully I can make the seat a little more reclined.
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Morciglio Arrowhead testing results
This Morciglio Arrowhead is a custom made CF-RWD recumbent made by John Morciglio.
This was his personal bike and I purchased it directly from him. To the best of my knowledge, he has not made another one of these yet, so another one-of-a-kind for now!
Weight difference:
The Arrowhead weighed exactly the same as V20, to the ounce!
The Arrowhead is a CF RWD platform. It has a fixed seat at about 15 degrees. The handlebar (tiller) that came with it is inverted from how I would have mounted it and it does stick up in wind 3-4 inches as apposed if it was rotated 180 degrees. That was not possible due to how it was configured and how it attached to the fork. The Arrowhead uses a 700 rear wheel as the drive wheel and a 650 front wheel. It has no FD, only a RD. I mounted an external Di2 system to it and taped the wires to the side of the CF frame. The cranks are 148mm long.
For me the seat does not have enough lumbar in it, and I wish I would have transferred mine over to the bike when I tested it, as my back began to hurt when the testing was about 50% done. The Arrowhead is very fast and as the speed increased it generally distanced itself more and more from the V20. At lower speeds ~20-23mph they where fairly equal.
Here are the power and speed comparisons at wattages from 75 to 300
75 watts: Arrowhead: 17.89 mph, V20 16.47 mph - delta 1.42 mph
100 watts: Arrowhead: 20.77 mph, V20 20.40 mph - delta 0.37 mph
125 watts: Arrowhead: 22.24 mph, V20 22.23 mph - delta 0.01 mph
150 watts: Arrowhead: 23.84 mph, V20 24.12 mph - delta 0.28 mph (V20 faster)
175 watts: Arrowhead: 25.76 mph, V20 25.05 mph - delta 0.71 mph
200 watts: Arrowhead: 27.37 mph, V20 26.55 mph - delta 0.82 mph
225 watts: Arrowhead: 28.56 mph, V20 28.08 mph - delta 0.48 mph
250 watts: Arrowhead: 29.82 mph, V20 29.25 mph - delta 0.57 mph
275 watts: Arrowhead: 30.50 mph, V20 31.17 mph - delta 0.67 mph
300 watts: Arrowhead (296W): 31.17 mph, V20(288W) 30.26 mph - delta 0.91 mph
Coast down and climbing tests:
Hill1 up (0.65m): Arrowhead: 176 watts, avg sp 12.29 mph, V20: 187 watts 11.81 mph - delta 0.48 mph (V20 used 11W more)
Hill1 down (0.50m): Arrowhead: avg 30.26 mph, max speed: 45.08 mph, V20 avg 29.64 mph, max speed: 43.95 mph - delta: avg sp: 0.62 , max sp: 1.13 mph
Hill 2 up (0.28m): Arrowhead: 226 watts, avg sp 8.99 mph, V20: 252 watts 8.90 mph - delta 0.09 mph (and V20 used 26W more)
Hill 2 down (0.65m): Arrowhead: avg 28.84 mph, max speed: 37.98 mph, V20 avg 27.85 mph, max speed: 36.39 mph - delta: avg sp: 1.01 , max sp: 1.59 mph
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 148 watts, avg sp 11.63 mph, V20: 154 watts 11.68 mph - delta 0.05 mph (V20 used 6W more)
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 202 watts, avg sp 14.56 mph, V20: 206 watts 14.33 mph - delta 0.23 mph (V20 used 4W more)
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 250 watts, avg sp 17.72 mph, V20: 252 watts 16.44 mph - delta 1.28 mph (V20 used 2W more)
Hill 3 down (0.5m): Arrowhead: avg 23.41 mph, max speed: 31.16 mph, V20 avg 22.02 mph, max speed: 28.23 mph - delta: avg sp: 1.039, max sp: 2.93 mph
I took the speed and wattage data from several different runs and ran them through Chung's model, after processing the .fit file into the CVS file needed for Chung method, this is what I came up with:
V20 @ 150 watts = CdA= 0.154, avg speed = 38.66 kph
V20 @ 203 watts = CdA= 0.160, avg speed = 42.8 kph
V20 @ 288 watts = CdA= 0.163, avg speed = 48.5 kph
Arrowhead @ 150 watts = CdA= 0.163, avg speed = 38.02 kph
Arrowhead @ 200 watts = CdA = 0.148, avg speed = 43.8 kph (best CdA I've seen so far)
Arrowhead @300 watts = CdA= 0.150, avg speed = 50.03 kph
...
As you might expect the CdA will vary slightly with different power outputs, since the body configuration the rider may change somewhat when pedaling harder or easier. All in all, the measurements are very close.
From what I have seen and read, these CdA's of both of these bikes are extremely low.
See this website (http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/CyclingAerodynamics.aspx) for listings of CdA's for "popular" riders and styles (scroll to the bottom). The lowest CdA listed is for (Obree 1994 (Obree position)) - which is 0.1720
I guess my "secret" is finally out! I am not really that "strong" of a rider - I just magically happen to have a "really" low CdA. Partly because I a small in size (<5'7"), and weight (<150 lbs), but also because I just seem to "fit" into both of these bike formats, rather nicely.
This testing was done on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome) as the other testing. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner.
I used the same Tri-Spoke wheel with Conti GP4000si with latex tube as the drive wheel/tire. Non-drive was a Zipp404 with Conti on the Arrowhead, and Tri-Spoke with Conti on the V20. I believe these are a close enough match for this test. I wore the same clothes, used the same helmet, same Vector Pedals, etc.
Take away: I fit the Arrowhead very nice just like I fit the V20, and that is probably why my CdA is so low. With a lumbar support I think the Arrowhead will be more comfortable. If I could redesign the handlebar setup so that it points down, I might be able to reduce the CdA even more. The Arrowhead is really the "fastest" recumbent I have ever ridden - it is really quite amazing! It is still not a bike that you would just want to ride around on the street. Because it has chain and pedal hard overlap with the front wheel, it is hard to start, and to turn, especially right turns. There is also no place to carry fuel, and with the comparable Vendetta I have space for 3 large water bottles, which can usually get me 100 miles. For that reason I would say the Arrowhead is really only for riding and racing on the track, or a road course where you have minimum turns and hopefully no stops. My choice for road racing and riding would still be the Vendetta even though I would give up some speed.
Many people told me that the Morciglio M1 would be faster, but so far I have not seen that materialize and don't think I will. I believe this is because the M1 is built generally for people at least 6' tall. I just fit the Arrowhead better. If I can ride the Arrowhead with the same power (~200watts) I rode the V20 on my track when I rode my fastest century this year at 3:49:21, I should be able to be really close to a 3:40 Century, more than I need to set a WR!
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
link to short video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj4h2878lqchztk/Arrowhead-V20.mp4?dl=0
Next up - Report on Morciglio's CF Apache - RWD
This Morciglio Arrowhead is a custom made CF-RWD recumbent made by John Morciglio.
This was his personal bike and I purchased it directly from him. To the best of my knowledge, he has not made another one of these yet, so another one-of-a-kind for now!
Weight difference:
The Arrowhead weighed exactly the same as V20, to the ounce!
The Arrowhead is a CF RWD platform. It has a fixed seat at about 15 degrees. The handlebar (tiller) that came with it is inverted from how I would have mounted it and it does stick up in wind 3-4 inches as apposed if it was rotated 180 degrees. That was not possible due to how it was configured and how it attached to the fork. The Arrowhead uses a 700 rear wheel as the drive wheel and a 650 front wheel. It has no FD, only a RD. I mounted an external Di2 system to it and taped the wires to the side of the CF frame. The cranks are 148mm long.
For me the seat does not have enough lumbar in it, and I wish I would have transferred mine over to the bike when I tested it, as my back began to hurt when the testing was about 50% done. The Arrowhead is very fast and as the speed increased it generally distanced itself more and more from the V20. At lower speeds ~20-23mph they where fairly equal.
Here are the power and speed comparisons at wattages from 75 to 300
75 watts: Arrowhead: 17.89 mph, V20 16.47 mph - delta 1.42 mph
100 watts: Arrowhead: 20.77 mph, V20 20.40 mph - delta 0.37 mph
125 watts: Arrowhead: 22.24 mph, V20 22.23 mph - delta 0.01 mph
150 watts: Arrowhead: 23.84 mph, V20 24.12 mph - delta 0.28 mph (V20 faster)
175 watts: Arrowhead: 25.76 mph, V20 25.05 mph - delta 0.71 mph
200 watts: Arrowhead: 27.37 mph, V20 26.55 mph - delta 0.82 mph
225 watts: Arrowhead: 28.56 mph, V20 28.08 mph - delta 0.48 mph
250 watts: Arrowhead: 29.82 mph, V20 29.25 mph - delta 0.57 mph
275 watts: Arrowhead: 30.50 mph, V20 31.17 mph - delta 0.67 mph
300 watts: Arrowhead (296W): 31.17 mph, V20(288W) 30.26 mph - delta 0.91 mph
Coast down and climbing tests:
Hill1 up (0.65m): Arrowhead: 176 watts, avg sp 12.29 mph, V20: 187 watts 11.81 mph - delta 0.48 mph (V20 used 11W more)
Hill1 down (0.50m): Arrowhead: avg 30.26 mph, max speed: 45.08 mph, V20 avg 29.64 mph, max speed: 43.95 mph - delta: avg sp: 0.62 , max sp: 1.13 mph
Hill 2 up (0.28m): Arrowhead: 226 watts, avg sp 8.99 mph, V20: 252 watts 8.90 mph - delta 0.09 mph (and V20 used 26W more)
Hill 2 down (0.65m): Arrowhead: avg 28.84 mph, max speed: 37.98 mph, V20 avg 27.85 mph, max speed: 36.39 mph - delta: avg sp: 1.01 , max sp: 1.59 mph
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 148 watts, avg sp 11.63 mph, V20: 154 watts 11.68 mph - delta 0.05 mph (V20 used 6W more)
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 202 watts, avg sp 14.56 mph, V20: 206 watts 14.33 mph - delta 0.23 mph (V20 used 4W more)
Hill 3 up (0.4m): Arrowhead: 250 watts, avg sp 17.72 mph, V20: 252 watts 16.44 mph - delta 1.28 mph (V20 used 2W more)
Hill 3 down (0.5m): Arrowhead: avg 23.41 mph, max speed: 31.16 mph, V20 avg 22.02 mph, max speed: 28.23 mph - delta: avg sp: 1.039, max sp: 2.93 mph
I took the speed and wattage data from several different runs and ran them through Chung's model, after processing the .fit file into the CVS file needed for Chung method, this is what I came up with:
V20 @ 150 watts = CdA= 0.154, avg speed = 38.66 kph
V20 @ 203 watts = CdA= 0.160, avg speed = 42.8 kph
V20 @ 288 watts = CdA= 0.163, avg speed = 48.5 kph
Arrowhead @ 150 watts = CdA= 0.163, avg speed = 38.02 kph
Arrowhead @ 200 watts = CdA = 0.148, avg speed = 43.8 kph (best CdA I've seen so far)
Arrowhead @300 watts = CdA= 0.150, avg speed = 50.03 kph
...
As you might expect the CdA will vary slightly with different power outputs, since the body configuration the rider may change somewhat when pedaling harder or easier. All in all, the measurements are very close.
From what I have seen and read, these CdA's of both of these bikes are extremely low.
See this website (http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/CyclingAerodynamics.aspx) for listings of CdA's for "popular" riders and styles (scroll to the bottom). The lowest CdA listed is for (Obree 1994 (Obree position)) - which is 0.1720
I guess my "secret" is finally out! I am not really that "strong" of a rider - I just magically happen to have a "really" low CdA. Partly because I a small in size (<5'7"), and weight (<150 lbs), but also because I just seem to "fit" into both of these bike formats, rather nicely.
This testing was done on the same track (1/3 mile old Nascar track in Asheville known as the Mellowdrome) as the other testing. It has very slight banking, fairly rough pavement, and one pretty sharp corner.
I used the same Tri-Spoke wheel with Conti GP4000si with latex tube as the drive wheel/tire. Non-drive was a Zipp404 with Conti on the Arrowhead, and Tri-Spoke with Conti on the V20. I believe these are a close enough match for this test. I wore the same clothes, used the same helmet, same Vector Pedals, etc.
Take away: I fit the Arrowhead very nice just like I fit the V20, and that is probably why my CdA is so low. With a lumbar support I think the Arrowhead will be more comfortable. If I could redesign the handlebar setup so that it points down, I might be able to reduce the CdA even more. The Arrowhead is really the "fastest" recumbent I have ever ridden - it is really quite amazing! It is still not a bike that you would just want to ride around on the street. Because it has chain and pedal hard overlap with the front wheel, it is hard to start, and to turn, especially right turns. There is also no place to carry fuel, and with the comparable Vendetta I have space for 3 large water bottles, which can usually get me 100 miles. For that reason I would say the Arrowhead is really only for riding and racing on the track, or a road course where you have minimum turns and hopefully no stops. My choice for road racing and riding would still be the Vendetta even though I would give up some speed.
Many people told me that the Morciglio M1 would be faster, but so far I have not seen that materialize and don't think I will. I believe this is because the M1 is built generally for people at least 6' tall. I just fit the Arrowhead better. If I can ride the Arrowhead with the same power (~200watts) I rode the V20 on my track when I rode my fastest century this year at 3:49:21, I should be able to be really close to a 3:40 Century, more than I need to set a WR!
Disclaimers:
This is my attempt to be as scientific as feasibly possible with the time I had, but please understand that I do know it is far from being perfect and I am not trying to "prove" that one platform is better than another.
In reality many many runs would need to be made in closer time proximity, even alternating the bikes back and forth between each set. (but for me that would have meant changing the Vector power pedals out and re-calibrating them each time, and I just did not have time for that). Understand also that I have been riding the V20 for at least a year and a half with over 25K miles an have had the time to fine tune myself to it. I have made almost every possible adaption to it for maximum aero benefit. I was not able to do with the other bikes I am testing.
Also: With all these tests, I will never claim "that bike X is faster than bike Y". There are just so many variable to account for. My only claim may be that "bike X set up like I have it" is "this much faster" than "bike Y set up like I have it", with me riding it on the day I rode it. Each person who may try this may have different results based on how much time they have had to setup and fine tune each bike. In the end, we all have different "goals" for ourselves with the bikes we choose to ride: Bike fit, Stability, comfort, climbing speed, visibility, maneuverability, etc. One bike cannot satisfy each category. For me right now, my goal is to glean from this exercise which platform do I fit best on (for all out speed on a track) and what can I then do on that platform to be the fastest I can be for a Century record attempt on a track. I would not choose the same platform to ride a hilly century or to commute back and forth to work on.
link to short video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj4h2878lqchztk/Arrowhead-V20.mp4?dl=0
Next up - Report on Morciglio's CF Apache - RWD
LarryOz
Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
Just for fun, I stuck the Arrowhead's 650 wheel on the back of the Vendetta, so lighter and a little lower seat angle.
My speed actually dropped by about 1/2 mph.
castlerobber
Zen MBB Master
I did, but I think it was more than just changing from 451 to 507 wheels that made the difference. Better quality wheels and wider, more supple tires, combined with a stiffer rear shock and higher BB, have brought the average speed up a full 2 mph. I didn't notice a lot of difference from any one change; the whole has been greater than the sum of its parts. Especially after a few weeks of getting used to all the changes.
