The next generation Cruzbike?

Osiris

Zen MBB Master
I've heard a couple of comments from Cruzbike owners lamenting the fact that our beloved V20 is getting a bit old and could use a redesign. Now, a three year old design doesn't seem all that old to me, especially compared to my other bents, the oldest of which was designed back in 2008, and has never been updated. There are a couple of "new" technologies like wider wheels and disk brakes that seem to be gaining acceptance. None of my other bents were designed to accommodate these, but the V20 already is, and I assume the same is true of the other models in Cruzbike's fleet. So that leaves me wondering what exactly a newer generation Cruzbike would be. What are the areas that could benefit from a redesign?
 

Bentas

Well-Known Member
Having built and ridden cromo and aluminium mbb bikes for over a dozen years, I can't emphasis enough just how much better carbon fibre is.
Not just weight saving, but the quiet and supple ride is truly awesome.
 

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paco1961

Zen MBB Master
Awesome bike. What is it?!

Carbon front triangle for CB seems a no brainer, not just overall weight savings but more for decreasing the flop factor. That's where I'd focus. Full carbon frame would be nice but my money would be on the front end.
 

DavidCH

In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
Awesome bike. What is it?!

Carbon front triangle for CB seems a no brainer, not just overall weight savings but more for decreasing the flop factor. That's where I'd focus. Full carbon frame would be nice but my money would be on the front end.
We've been going on about this for yonks. It's not going to happen. You might have more luck wishing for titanium
 

BJ686

Well-Known Member
I think offering a carbon seat like the current one but that has an upcurve at the shoulders would sell well. Folks would no longer need to try and adapt after market seats.
 

benphyr

Guru-me-not
@Bentas If hypothetically of course you were to custom make one for someone else with all attention to aesthetics in addition to all the other details, as you did with the one in the picture, how much would it cost the prospective buyer either in $ or in parts, hours of labour, etc. (I'm not a potential buyer, I just think it might clear up many of the recurring discussions on carbon fibre as a Cruzbike small number run solution. And I'm curious about how many, many hours you have put in just on this model and the number of prototypes required to get to this model. Might be a different thread, that question.)
 

DavidJL

Well-Known Member
How about making the front end one lightweight rigid unit, and making the seat location adjustable. Of course, this would require more different sizes.
 

Bentas

Well-Known Member
Mzweili, is right, Marco has great skills and experience building carbon MBB. Not sure if he has the time or motivation to mass produce though.
To try and answer benphyr, the most time cosuming part of my build was procrastinating about working with carbon fibre, and then searching eBay and gumtree for a usable damaged carbon road frame.
It's impossible to put a figure on cost because being a total novice it took way longer than someone who knows what they are doing , probably a month if I ad up the weekends and nights after work,(blessed to have a very understanding wife)
The donor frame and materials to put it together Wests resin and hardner ,acetone ,sandpaper etc came in at around $400 Aus. Then I had to by Thor carbon seat , wheels ,I already had drive train parts and brakes etc from previous builds.
I feel like I really fluked this one, after a full Tasmanian summer about 5 months I still can't wait to ride the thing again
and again , extremely satisfying .
Next project is to find the best way to set it up for 'bike packing' ultra light weight touring without racks.
 

dtseng

Well-Known Member
Having built and ridden cromo and aluminium mbb bikes for over a dozen years, I can't emphasis enough just how much better carbon fibre is.
Not just weight saving, but the quiet and supple ride is truly awesome.
How about making the front end one lightweight rigid unit, and making the seat location adjustable. Of course, this would require more different sizes.

Ditto, eliminate the concept of one-size-fit-all, lighten the front-end as much as possible, shorten the chain stay (the length of a typical DF road bike chain stay 395-400 mm).
 
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LarryOz

Cruzeum Curator & Sigma Wrangler
How about making the front end one lightweight rigid unit, and making the seat location adjustable. Of course, this would require more different sizes.
IMHO - If carefully designed with an adjustable BB & Seat a single frame size could still do it !
 

DavidCH

In thought; expanding the paradigm of traversity
I have one of the first yellow hydroformed Vendettas, and I love that bike! To me, it is still new and I wouldn't change a thing!
I did and still am. After the next upgrade it's going to be the moonshot to mars. There is still more I can do with it. One of the biggest upgrades is a better wheelset but I'm still out if I want to go with disc brakes. If I lived in a wet country then no brainer but I live in a desert.
 

KiwiGuy

Well-Known Member
I didn’t ride with the group this morning as I had a draining week and needed a sleep-in. Instead had an easy 90 minute ride on the trainer, which gave me time to think about this.

After riding the Vendetta for 18 months, I love this bike. Best bike on the planet for the type of riding I do. But there are some improvements I’d like to see in the next generation V20. Simply put they are: 1. Follow the trends. 2. More aero. 2. AVOID carbon.

Follow the Trends

#1. Campagnolo has just released their first 12-speed group-set. It is almost certain that Ultegra and Force will be available as 12-speed in 2021. So release the next-gen Vendetta as 12-speed compatible at the same time.

#2. Tires are going wider to 28mm. And rims are going wider to complement this move. The carbon wheels I bought less the two years ago have rims that are 17mm wide internally. The same disc specific rim is now only available 21mm wide internally. Design the next-gen Vendetta to easily run 28mm tires on wide rims (like the new Industry Nine I9 Disc road rims).

#3. Road disc is another major trend. Pros are now using them. The major df manufacturers are building their frames for them. I’m running Ultegra hydraulic road discs (140mm front and back) and they are brilliant – I’m never going back to caliper brakes. Design the next-gen Vendetta specifically for disc brakes.

#4. With that in mind, please please please go to thru-axles. I’m really tired of having to use quick release with disc brakes. Every time I put the wheel back in it is in a slightly different place; which means 10 to 15 minutes experimentation trying the stop the disc rubbing again. Design the next-gen Vendetta specifically for disc brakes with thru axles.


More Aero

#1. Find a way to make the next-gen Vendetta even more aero. One way might be an optional V18 frame for medium to tall riders, building in the V18 extension that Jim has trialled.

#2. Provide more data-driven advice to owners on equipment selection. For example for a rider 6 ft or taller, what is the most aero chain-stay to use – medium or large? And with which length chain-stay can you climb faster? I’d really like to know definitely without having to do the experimentation myself.


AVOID Carbon

I know this is likely to be an unpopular suggestion, but I happen to think that hydro-formed alloy hits the sweet spot in material at the moment. Too many of the guys I ride with have broken carbon frames in crashes, where a metal frame would survive with a few scrapes. And I’ve met enough people who have bought second-hand carbon frames, only to later find a crack in them, to know to avoid them. And don’t get me started on the European manufacturer whose frames habitually crack within 12 months on the dead, chip seal roads of New Zealand, because they’re built only for smooth European roads. Plus, right now, carbon is not recyclable. Like an expensive woman, carbon frames look great but come at a significant cost.

A lighter front-end would be nice for the Vendetta, but I’m not experiencing any problems there. I can’t see that stripping a couple of pounds of weight is going to have much impact at all. I’d prefer the frame-set to remain alloy, and be a little more aero, than shift to carbon and be a little bit lighter.


My thoughts for what they're worth...
 

super slim

Zen MBB Master
I didn’t ride with the group this morning as I had a draining week and needed a sleep-in. Instead had an easy 90 minute ride on the trainer, which gave me time to think about this.

After riding the Vendetta for 18 months, I love this bike. Best bike on the planet for the type of riding I do. But there are some improvements I’d like to see in the next generation V20. Simply put they are: 1. Follow the trends. 2. More aero. 2. AVOID carbon.

Follow the Trends

#1. Campagnolo has just released their first 12-speed group-set. It is almost certain that Ultegra and Force will be available as 12-speed in 2021. So release the next-gen Vendetta as 12-speed compatible at the same time.

#2. Tires are going wider to 28mm. And rims are going wider to complement this move. The carbon wheels I bought less the two years ago have rims that are 17mm wide internally. The same disc specific rim is now only available 21mm wide internally. Design the next-gen Vendetta to easily run 28mm tires on wide rims (like the new Industry Nine I9 Disc road rims).

#3. Road disc is another major trend. Pros are now using them. The major df manufacturers are building their frames for them. I’m running Ultegra hydraulic road discs (140mm front and back) and they are brilliant – I’m never going back to caliper brakes. Design the next-gen Vendetta specifically for disc brakes.

#4. With that in mind, please please please go to thru-axles. I’m really tired of having to use quick release with disc brakes. Every time I put the wheel back in it is in a slightly different place; which means 10 to 15 minutes experimentation trying the stop the disc rubbing again. Design the next-gen Vendetta specifically for disc brakes with thru axles.


More Aero

#1. Find a way to make the next-gen Vendetta even more aero. One way might be an optional V18 frame for medium to tall riders, building in the V18 extension that Jim has trialled.

#2. Provide more data-driven advice to owners on equipment selection. For example for a rider 6 ft or taller, what is the most aero chain-stay to use – medium or large? And with which length chain-stay can you climb faster? I’d really like to know definitely without having to do the experimentation myself.


AVOID Carbon

I know this is likely to be an unpopular suggestion, but I happen to think that hydro-formed alloy hits the sweet spot in material at the moment. Too many of the guys I ride with have broken carbon frames in crashes, where a metal frame would survive with a few scrapes. And I’ve met enough people who have bought second-hand carbon frames, only to later find a crack in them, to know to avoid them. And don’t get me started on the European manufacturer whose frames habitually crack within 12 months on the dead, chip seal roads of New Zealand, because they’re built only for smooth European roads. Plus, right now, carbon is not recyclable. Like an expensive woman, carbon frames look great but come at a significant cost.

A lighter front-end would be nice for the Vendetta, but I’m not experiencing any problems there. I can’t see that stripping a couple of pounds of weight is going to have much impact at all. I’d prefer the frame-set to remain alloy, and be a little more aero, than shift to carbon and be a little bit lighter.


My thoughts for what they're worth...
Blair, I agree with most things, especially about NOT going to Carbon, except through axles, as right now there are 10 different standards 1 for each bike manufacturer!!!
Hopefully there will end up being one standard for road bikes!
 
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