bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
The heavier your bike is, the less noticeable is the extra weight when you carry stuff.
The Optimum Hip Angle for Maximum power?
- Thread starter ak-tux
- Start date
Balor
Zen MBB Master
And when *you* weight nearly 250 lbs, being a weight weenie is a battle lost before it even started... hence I concentrate on power output.
Still, lugging 50 lbs around IS rather annoying, especially on 7th floor
Balor
Zen MBB Master
https://www.strava.com/activities/1941935880
Second test, with rear 20" wheel.
Strange stuff - I've self-selected quite a bit larger power as 'comfortable level' from the start.
HOWEVER, intervals were ruined by a nasty side stitch. Total power is higher, anaerobic power is lower. *Maybe* this side stich was due to this larger power from the start, however.... those side stiches are MUCH more common on my MBB when I have to pull on bars for power, and I had to now due to lack of shoulder boosters.
I should note that my BB is still 1 cm LOWER than the seat, making my setup very close to one of Marco Ruga - with a bit more recline though.
No feeling of 'numb legs' yet, so I'll have to remote the wheel altogether to test BB 5 inches higher than the seat with 'near horizontal' sea after all, or unearth the ti lowracer. I guess I'll do both eventually.
Plus test backwards pedalling again, got LWB from garage... well, at least is not boring.
Second test, with rear 20" wheel.
Strange stuff - I've self-selected quite a bit larger power as 'comfortable level' from the start.
HOWEVER, intervals were ruined by a nasty side stitch. Total power is higher, anaerobic power is lower. *Maybe* this side stich was due to this larger power from the start, however.... those side stiches are MUCH more common on my MBB when I have to pull on bars for power, and I had to now due to lack of shoulder boosters.
I should note that my BB is still 1 cm LOWER than the seat, making my setup very close to one of Marco Ruga - with a bit more recline though.
No feeling of 'numb legs' yet, so I'll have to remote the wheel altogether to test BB 5 inches higher than the seat with 'near horizontal' sea after all, or unearth the ti lowracer. I guess I'll do both eventually.
Plus test backwards pedalling again, got LWB from garage... well, at least is not boring
.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
https://www.strava.com/activities/1946549330
No rear wheel.
BB 12cm higher than the seat, which is a rather moderate amount by highracer standards.
Again, HIP ANGLE remains fixed, what changes is seat recline and BB height.
Apparent power drop: HR is lower, perception of effort is higher. No side stitch this time though, I've took one day of rest just in case.
I think I'll make an other try at this angle, average the watts and and than try the 'doping'.
No rear wheel.
BB 12cm higher than the seat, which is a rather moderate amount by highracer standards.
Again, HIP ANGLE remains fixed, what changes is seat recline and BB height.
Apparent power drop: HR is lower, perception of effort is higher. No side stitch this time though, I've took one day of rest just in case.
I think I'll make an other try at this angle, average the watts and and than try the 'doping'.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
I'll likely have to make not just blind, but a 'placebo-controlled' experiment as well: crush the tablet, repack it into a gelatin cap, fill the other cap with sugar take one at random. Repeat the experiment until I get sildenafil and 'placebo', result would be noted AFTER doing the experiment and opening the other cap.
Ed, does Sildenafil Citrate degrade when exposed to air?
Ed, does Sildenafil Citrate degrade when exposed to air?
ak-tux
Zen MBB Master
Let me get this one correctly, so for the SAME measured power output and SAME HIP angle, the percieved effort goes up with a greater recline and higher BB?
Does it mean the heart is working harder?
It would be nice to plot this on a graph: recline angle versues power and Heart rate
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Balor
Zen MBB Master
Nope, heart rate goes down as well. If you look at the graph, you might as well think that I was just not trying as hard. Well, I was not, actually - but neither I was trying "hard" per se (except the interval portion) at other times. It was a comfortable level that is supposed to be maintaineable long-term.
Admittedly, "supposed" is a rather loose definition, I'll need to do some genine long rides.
Admittedly, "supposed" is a rather loose definition, I'll need to do some genine long rides.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Anyway, this is very old news, I'm quite sure people beent noticing that from very conception of "legs up" HPVs.
Here is a very telling article:
https://www.easystreetrecumbents.com/articles/2010/03/pedal-height-wars/
I wasn’t, however, and I was the only one riding the bike. After several months of denial, self deception, avoiding looking at my average trip speed indicator, etc., I finally gave in and recognized that I was an astonishing 2 mph slower in open-country riding on the Barcroft than on the V-Rex, and my legs had been telling me the reason. I didn’t have foot numbness, but I had increased lactic acid leg burn on all hills and anytime I tried to push the speed. Because I’m not into this for pain, I would back off until it didn’t hurt, and so I rode much more slowly. The fact is, somewhere between a pedal height 2 inches to 5 inches above the seat height I had exceeded my individual tolerances for adequate leg circulation in a leg-elevated work position and so dramatically impacted my riding performance. And performance isn’t just vulgar speed, it is “easy speed” – simple riding efficiency. My performance loss was astonishing; trying to go faster, I had passed through some physiological threshold into a place where my leg circulation just didn’t work properly.
As you see, you do not even need onset of foot nubness (that means that your nerves simply giving up due to local hypoxia) for a serious power drop.
As for why your heart does not work harder to compensate... well, how does it *know* that is *should*? That is very, very interesting question. Answering it (along with finding way of reducing vascular resistance) may lead to a solution of "bent legs" problem.
Btw, "making heart work too hard" may not be that viable beacause that may lead to oxygen poisoning of the brain, kind of like hanging upside down is, actually, a form of torture.
Here is a very telling article:
https://www.easystreetrecumbents.com/articles/2010/03/pedal-height-wars/
I wasn’t, however, and I was the only one riding the bike. After several months of denial, self deception, avoiding looking at my average trip speed indicator, etc., I finally gave in and recognized that I was an astonishing 2 mph slower in open-country riding on the Barcroft than on the V-Rex, and my legs had been telling me the reason. I didn’t have foot numbness, but I had increased lactic acid leg burn on all hills and anytime I tried to push the speed. Because I’m not into this for pain, I would back off until it didn’t hurt, and so I rode much more slowly. The fact is, somewhere between a pedal height 2 inches to 5 inches above the seat height I had exceeded my individual tolerances for adequate leg circulation in a leg-elevated work position and so dramatically impacted my riding performance. And performance isn’t just vulgar speed, it is “easy speed” – simple riding efficiency. My performance loss was astonishing; trying to go faster, I had passed through some physiological threshold into a place where my leg circulation just didn’t work properly.
As you see, you do not even need onset of foot nubness (that means that your nerves simply giving up due to local hypoxia) for a serious power drop.
As for why your heart does not work harder to compensate... well, how does it *know* that is *should*? That is very, very interesting question. Answering it (along with finding way of reducing vascular resistance) may lead to a solution of "bent legs" problem.
Btw, "making heart work too hard" may not be that viable beacause that may lead to oxygen poisoning of the brain, kind of like hanging upside down is, actually, a form of torture.
HR is controlled by the Medulla. Blood pH or more specifically CO2 is the control input.
Why would the autonomic nervous system increase HR if CO2 levels are in homeostasis during bent pedaling? Thus, O2 delivery is insufficient resulting in lactate (H+) burn in the legs at lower power thresholds compared to an upright. You have to look at the different areas of the lung and consider the differences to the upright position and gas partial pressures.
You are on the right track, Balor.
Air, moisture, and temperature impact drug substance stability and therefore shelflife. Usually, potency drops out of the regulatory range. Say it hits 90% active ingredient potency during stability testing. There are degradients as well that are monitoring for all drug products, it is actually a very expensive program. I would not worry about a crushed tablet over the course of a few weeks. A year? You might not get the "NO" response
I am closing in on my former upright power levels but still have work to do.
Why would the autonomic nervous system increase HR if CO2 levels are in homeostasis during bent pedaling? Thus, O2 delivery is insufficient resulting in lactate (H+) burn in the legs at lower power thresholds compared to an upright. You have to look at the different areas of the lung and consider the differences to the upright position and gas partial pressures.
You are on the right track, Balor.
Air, moisture, and temperature impact drug substance stability and therefore shelflife. Usually, potency drops out of the regulatory range. Say it hits 90% active ingredient potency during stability testing. There are degradients as well that are monitoring for all drug products, it is actually a very expensive program. I would not worry about a crushed tablet over the course of a few weeks. A year? You might not get the "NO" response
I am closing in on my former upright power levels but still have work to do.
ak-tux
Zen MBB Master
Interesting! I wonder how high is too high for the BB relative to the seat?
. Naturally then, adapation does take place after some time/miles on the said postion, I believe?Does enlisting more/different muscle groups trigger the heart to pump more/faster? As is the case with MBB format for example?
Old study but shows upright makes more power than recumbent.....but not why.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1761025
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1761025
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Just like I said above, training under hypoxic conditions trigger compesatory mechanisms, but people are different. I am actually diagnosed with "circulation system disorder", but this diagnose is more like a restatement of a problem as opposed to undersanding of actual causes. In my case it (infrequently) leads to outright fainting "out of the blue", so it is small wonder that I am particularly affected. like I said, I rode my first RWD for a year and a half and never truly adapted - but it was rather extreme, about 10 inches of difference. Seat recline obviosly also plays a role, but my seat was not that reclined PLUS some people actually claim that foot numbness is actually relieved by reclining the seat... maybe "recumbutt" have something to with this as well? Also a case of local perfusion problem (glutes).
As for "kickstarting" the heart with upper body - sounds very interesting, but does it really work that way?
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Hmm, more "dopings" to test
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotrope
A have bradycardia, btw, but this is actually normal and considered benigh in endurance athletes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotrope
A have bradycardia, btw, but this is actually normal and considered benigh in endurance athletes...
Balor
Zen MBB Master
Not likely. I don't recall something wrong with my HR before I've got into cycling. Than it got lower and lower - just athletic heart. I got nearly 40 bpm at rest at my peak form... I recall Indurain had something like 28
.My resting HR is higher now (less form, more weight). I also consume copious amounts of coffee daily, but I suspect it does very little to me.
The fact that I once gained nearly 100 pounds and than lost it very quickly likely contributed to all kind of confusion in my metabolic and circulatory system... though I do have some identified circulatory problem - in neck and brain arteries, hypoplasia, one artery is nearly missing... but that does not explain anything about why I am that much affected by 'legs up' position in particular.
V/Q ratio in the supine position is significantly impaired compared to upright. Gravity and orientation impact lung function significantly. More reclined position (more open hips) also brings another ugly into the equation. Visceral fat. I've read some studies showing inverse relationship of visceral fat to FVC aside from lower levels (up to 25%..IIRC) in the recumbent position. I've done a lot of experimenting but can't really write it.
I did raise my seat back up. Peak Power returned. Pretty dramatic effect going from 15 degrees back to 19 degrees approx. I might have adapted but my vision and balance were not sufficient. I still have a gigantic hole healing in my elbow. I can say for sure that power was way lower but did not bother measuring CdA of the lowered seat.
I did raise my seat back up. Peak Power returned. Pretty dramatic effect going from 15 degrees back to 19 degrees approx. I might have adapted but my vision and balance were not sufficient. I still have a gigantic hole healing in my elbow. I can say for sure that power was way lower but did not bother measuring CdA of the lowered seat.
Balor
Zen MBB Master
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripod_position
Now that is something very interesting in light of this of low V/Q situation:
With the position of the arms secure, contraction of the pectoralis results in elevation of the anterior wall of the chest.
Cruzbike cockpit and bar-pulling anyone?
Or wait. That's more like bar-pushing, not bar pulling, isn't it?
Obree's Beasty *prone* bike suddely gained lot of appeal.
Admittedly, his design is a bit on extreme side (as in - barely rideable, like his inventions tend to, plus I think his linear drive was a *noob trap* he fell right into), this one seems better:
http://birdofpreybicycles.ning.com
What's more important for *me*, the position is aerodynamic AND your legs are *always* below heart level even when you position your trunk completely horizontally.
Recumbents.com mention this type of bicycle:
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/great_ideas.htm
Prone Bikes
A prone bike is one where the rider is laying on his stomach, as opposed to the traditional supine recumbent position where the rider lays on his back. Some success has been had with prone bikes as the position is very good for sprinting. It’s also a good position aerodynamically as you can cram your head and shoulders into a narrower package than your legs and pedals. The position is bad ergonomically though, as the rider has to strain his head backwards, and the cradle required to support the body in that position restricts the lungs. This means that the rider suffers in any long races or rides.
Great for sprinting, huh? Anyway, this is more like an *extreme* TT bike than a 'recumbent' per se.
Downsides *might* be fixable with a 'chin rest' (after all, we are comfortable with heard rests, why not a chin rest?) and unlike using a 'hammock' for supporting the body, Bird-of-Pray/Beasty seems designs like a very good position for the lungs, actually. It certainly does not prevent hour record riders from outputting monstrous watts in, basically, exactly this position as far as lung position is concerned!
Now that is something very interesting in light of this of low V/Q situation:
With the position of the arms secure, contraction of the pectoralis results in elevation of the anterior wall of the chest.
Cruzbike cockpit and bar-pulling anyone?
Or wait. That's more like bar-pushing, not bar pulling, isn't it?
Obree's Beasty *prone* bike suddely gained lot of appeal.
http://birdofpreybicycles.ning.com
What's more important for *me*, the position is aerodynamic AND your legs are *always* below heart level even when you position your trunk completely horizontally.
Recumbents.com mention this type of bicycle:
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/great_ideas.htm
Prone Bikes
A prone bike is one where the rider is laying on his stomach, as opposed to the traditional supine recumbent position where the rider lays on his back. Some success has been had with prone bikes as the position is very good for sprinting. It’s also a good position aerodynamically as you can cram your head and shoulders into a narrower package than your legs and pedals. The position is bad ergonomically though, as the rider has to strain his head backwards, and the cradle required to support the body in that position restricts the lungs. This means that the rider suffers in any long races or rides.
Great for sprinting, huh? Anyway, this is more like an *extreme* TT bike than a 'recumbent' per se.
Downsides *might* be fixable with a 'chin rest' (after all, we are comfortable with heard rests, why not a chin rest?) and unlike using a 'hammock' for supporting the body, Bird-of-Pray/Beasty seems designs like a very good position for the lungs, actually. It certainly does not prevent hour record riders from outputting monstrous watts in, basically, exactly this position as far as lung position is concerned!
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bladderhead
Zen MBB Master
As an asthmatic child I used to assume that position. I think one reason it is comfortable is because it stops the weight of your head and shoulders pressing down on your lungs. On the Silvio I have tried bar-pulling to lift my back off the seat to recover more quickly from breathlessness. Does not seem to make any difference.
